The PeaceKeeper Protection Deal (Bad Timing spoilers)

[Ouroboros]

In the episode bad timing Scorpius offered John Crichton a deal that would see Earth Become one of the planets protected by the Peacekeeper fleet. John turned the deal down but what would you have done in his place?

Just so this doesn't some up completely one sided I'll offer a bit of counterpoint right here for you to consider.

-Earth is hopelessly behind in technology, the PK and Scarran races have existed for at least 30,000 years according to info from WWL. Can we really hope to compete even if and when we get our own starships and take to space in the future? Or will we just be prolonging our own inevitable defeat.

-They have nice technology: Advanced Pk technology could possibly solve many of the problems that exist on Earth today such as disease.

-The Scarrans are out there to, and they're a lot worse: It goes without saying that it would be worse to get conquered by the Scarrans than to join the Pks willingly. Earth right now is just a lonely low tech victim waiting to be annexed by some vicious alien empire. If we allied with the PK's we would join one such power without the bloodshed and pain that come with a conquest. We'd get protection and security for our future.

-Hey we're probably related anyway: It's pretty obvious that humans and Sebaceans have a lot in common mind as well get together and figure out why.

-They probably won’t come around much anyway: With Earth so far out int he universal boondocks it’s likely we’d still retain quite a bit of our autonomy. The only time we might see the Pk fleet would be when we needed protection from an alien agressor and isn’t that what we want?

Edit to include: We'll assume that for the purposes of this poll Earth world governments will abide by whatever decisions you make.

[GARNET]

Human may behind but we learn fast and technology is fun thing. We may catch up with them in short order of dew centuries then past them. Look at Star Terk, Earth went to planet damage by a war in the med 21th century to power house by 23 to 24 th century. Older does not mean wise or smart, it just mean older. So I say let Earth stay as independent as possible to enemy is seen coming then ask for help.

[Patrel Rushlock]

Earth would be squased by either. At least the PK's can be negotiated with. I'd go with the the PK's.

[Frellster]

I said it out loud to the Tv at the time. (what the whole world didn't hear me?) I would go with the PK deal. I would give up just about anything to get into space. Besides, who's to say the Peackeepers are any less trustworthy than our current governments?

[Frunium Slip]

Before the wormhole was closed up permanently, I did not see a real alternative to saving Earth from the Scarrans. I for one would have had to make some kind of deal. I wouldn't have liked it as I feel the PK's would have turned the Earth into an impressed grunt producer for their military. I believe it was Rygel who stated that Earth would be known for the quality of its manual labor. If Rygel thought this what would the oh we're so superior Peacekeepers think?

The part that concerned me was what kind of deal could Scorpy broker? Wasn't he on the outs with Peacekeeper High Command? Or is there another devious plot that our favorite anti-hero is cooking up?

We'll just have to get this show back on the air won't we?

[Darth Buddha]

If it were PK or Scarren, I'd take PK.

But the PK's might not treat humans as badly as other "lesser races".

They look like us, they're related, and they can even breed with us. Racial purity aside, nobody could TELL if you were dating a Sebacean or a human short of a genetic scan, and probably a pretty detailed on at that. Hell, PK headquarters might even recruit us because we can "take the heat" and they can't. The two species breed, and no more heat delirium.

We'd take some lumps for several generations, but I'd guess before long we'd be one freaking species, out dominating the lesser races.

[SueDonym]

'K. I get to root for the other side.

I don't think Skarrans would conquoer Earth that easily.

There was only one ship (granted enormous and enormously powerful and they could send more), which only sent in a few fighters. And while they could wreak havok and destruction from space, we could and sadly (ecological destruction be damned) probably would re-align our nukes, etc. to fire at them. Plus, they'd have to send ground troops at some point. Primitive weapons are still weapons. If you come in guns blazing, someone waiting behind the door with a knife or a frying pan can still bash you over the head or stab you in the back. Humans have been fighting guerilla warfare for about as long as we haven't been chimps ourselves, and we're pretty good at it. Little bolts of light might have trouble penetrating Scarran hide, but I'm betting a few exploding bullets wouldn't. Plus wouldn't the business of handling all those little nations and governments just confuse and annoy the heck out of them? It does me.

Or I could be very very wrong, and we could fold like the Sunday Times. However, one of the things aliens tend to do in FarScape is underestimate the human...and JC is just one. I bet en masse we could annoy the heck out of any invading force.

And there are other factors to consider. Superior manual labor? Heck, Rygel couldn't handle the sugar intake our children can. We could lead the Hynerian Empire around by the nose with a bag of M&M's. There's probably something other than flowers the Scarrans would find interesting...or DEADLY! (Not to mention setting fire to any fields or destroying any Bird of Paradise bushes that are about, once we figure out that's what they're after.) And we're a bunch of disease ridden freaks anyway...which brings us to the War of the Worlds Common Cold or even Mars/Athlete's foot senario. If JC wasn't as healthy as he has to be to get into a space program, I'm betting he'd have infected half the galaxy with some disease their immune systems weren't prepared to handle.

*And* the Scarrans can't take the cold. We CAN. Even if we got wiped off the lower parts of the equator, humans could still and *would* still pester them from the cold bits. Or they'd be unprepared for an actual winter in our more 'temperate' regions and freeze to death then. And the PK couldn't handle our summers. So...

Okay. Now to put pig-headed stubron hopefulness aside.
(Such a human trait...)

I don't like the PK. But on the other hand I don't think I'd have the skill and blinding confidence that JC has which would be required to close the wormhole without a failsafe, so I'd have to think quick about what kind of a compromise could work.

(Only sort of glad you added that the Earth Gov. would abide by my decision, because my original plan on seeing the ep was to tell JC via my TV screen something along the lines of - Just say YES you idiot! There's no way our governments will let them hold the entire planet to the word of one accidental tourist!!! ie. Get rid of the threat and let our tendancy to argue with one another indefinately sort the aliens out later.)

Although the temptation of space is great, if I'm making this decision I'm assuming I'm already out there...hanging with the Moyans. (COOL!!!) And I'm sorry folks, but just like JC, I'd have the ego to figure I know what's best for y'all. Unless they agreed to turn Earth into some giant space college until we're up to speed with the rest of the galaxy, the PK could swing.

They only want us for our WH abilities anyway - which I think may be as inately human as Pilot's, and you've seen how they treat pilots.

And if we're that good with WH why not imply that everybody better take several steps back before approaching our planet unless they want to...

However, nice points Darth Budda. The PK might indeed treat us a little better than everyone else. But I wouldn't want them to make better use of a nasty tendency to prejudice already there.

[||Scorpius||]

SueDonym:
"However, one of the things aliens tend to do in FarScape is underestimate the human...and JC is just one. I bet en masse we could annoy the heck out of any invading force."
________
LOL!. This is our secret weapon!

__________
"Superior manual labor? Heck, Rygel couldn't handle the sugar intake our children can. We could lead the Hynerian Empire around by the nose with a bag of M&M's."

ROFLMAO!! hehee---right again!
____________

Seriously though: I'd go with the PKs over the Scarrans. They may be imperialists, but they pretty much protect their colonies, far as I've heard. They are not into genocide like the Scarrans. Plus, what do you want to bet human genetics would be found 'inferior'? Yeah. It would either be genocide, or us modified into part Scarrans. Like JC, I don't think slavery and freedom from disease is a good deal compared to freedom and what we've got.

If it came down to the nitty gritty, I think even Crichton would make a deal with the PKs. They might be our only chance of survival as a species.

But what if almost *all* humans have the Wormhole navigating 'sense'?? We might end up as valuable pilots in a galactic civilisation, sort of like the pilot-species (what were they called?) in the Dune universe.

Sue, I don't think we could threaten anyone with anything. It is obvious we don't have advanced tech. Even if we do all possess the wh navigating sense, the PKs and Scarrans wouldn't believe we wouldn't be using it.

About the wh to Earth: My take on whs is that there are an infinite number of them, to all points in time and space. You just have to 'have been there before' to navigate to that place again. SO I do not think JC closed "ALL" wormholes to Earth: just that one...the one he knew where the mouth/exit's location was in the U.T. There probably are tons more of them, it's just that no one knows where their exits in the U.T.s (or wherever else) are.

I agree that our own governments are not very much (if at all) superior to the PK one. The PKs are at war with other major technologically advanced races (cold war, but still, if they were not strong, they'd be overrun). When humans are in the same situation, they tend to be pretty damn militant. Or aggressive.
I think the point of the PKs, in a story sense, isn't that we should take them as Nazis or Communists, but look at our own governments and see how much they are LIKE PKs. Frankly, if you want symbolism, the PKs' look is communist, but their name and a lot of their behaviour is very like the USA. Think we don't interrogate prisoners? We had a big bomber in the 1950s (my Dad flew on them!) called "The Peacekeeper", or "Peacemaker" (not sure which), the B-36. Our own troops are called "Peacekeepers'...lol. And we just did invade a country to depose its govt. So...it isn't like we as humans do not already have a lot in common with the PKs.

As Darth B said, we LOOK like 'em too. I think we'd experience less prejudicial treatment than some races.

I have a feeling that D'argo is calling the Command Carrier right now:
D: "Command carrier"?
CC: "Yes, this is the Command carrier, over."
D: "Could I speak to Scorpius, please"?
CC: He's in conference, you'll have to leave a message."
D: "No, wait! This is *really* important! It has to do with Crichton!"
CC: "Hold please"...
:)
D might get Scorpius to help hunt down or deal with whoever it is who crystalised JC. I'm sure Scorp would help. The PKs do seem to have fairly advanced medical tech.

And when Earth is attacked by the Scarrans, I don't think JC (or Earth's govts) would turn down PK help. It's better than utter destruction. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

As for what the PKs might want to do with Earth later, I'm not sure. It is possible that we wouldn't be that interesting to them. It might be arrogant of us to assume we would be 'the hot commodity' in a galaxy full of more advanced species.

[Eric Satan]

what if we adapt and learn at a much faster rate than pk's? Out "Manual Labor" just may put out advanced ships faster than the pk's can handle once we figure them out.
we are a very destructive race! we destroy our own planet and our own people all the time, I'm sure if we figured out the pk weapons systems we could make them much more destructive

(can you imagine kamikaze modules loaded with nukes)

[Ouroboros]

Older does not mean wise or smart, it just mean older.

Actually age is pretty important. Not only does it tell us the PKs have been expanding for a really long time but it also gives us a pretty good measuring stick as to how long it takes to develop that kind of technology. Sebaceans aren't any dumber or smarter than humans from what I can tell so it would seem that it should take us just as long to accomplish the same, while they continue to advance of course.

Before the wormhole was closed up permanently, I did not see a real alternative to saving Earth from the Scarrans. I for one would have had to make some kind of deal. I wouldn't have liked it as I feel the PK's would have turned the Earth into an impressed grunt producer for their military. I believe it was Rygel who stated that Earth would be known for the quality of its manual labor. If Rygel thought this what would the oh we're so superior Peacekeepers think?

I don't think we'd work as grunts for them. Remember that one ep where they read off of a vase from across the room to show of their eyesight. John Crichton can't read it but everyone else can, including Aeryn. If their vision is that much better than ours is naturally, we'd be at a disadvantage on the battlefield. Cannon fodder though.....that's different.

The part that concerned me was what kind of deal could Scorpy broker? Wasn't he on the outs with Peacekeeper High Command? Or is there another devious plot that our favorite anti-hero is cooking up

Even if he's still on the outs he could always work the deal through Braca. It would probably be some other high ranking PK officer or ambassador who actually came to earth to do the deal. Negotiating new planets into the protection treaty seems beyond the scope of a simple starship captain.

They look like us, they're related, and they can even breed with us. Racial purity aside, nobody could TELL if you were dating a Sebacean or a human short of a genetic scan, and probably a pretty detailed on at that. Hell, PK headquarters might even recruit us because we can "take the heat" and they can't. The two species breed, and no more heat delirium.

I was thinking the same thing. The possibility of breeding out their heat delirium would surely be one they'd want to explore. The only thing I have to wonder is would these hypothetical human hybrids also loose their superior Sebacean vision. If that were the case, and considering the war oriented nature of the PK's they might not be willing to go for that trade off.

Another thing to consider is there is a LOT more of them then there are of us. We're only one planet worth of population they're an interstellar empire of indeterminate size. This would mean that our genetic impact on the whole of their race would probably be quite minimal if allowed to occur naturally. We'd pretty much just be absorbed into their species over the course of a few generations.

we could and sadly (ecological destruction be damned) probably would re-align our nukes, etc. to fire at them. Plus, they'd have to send ground troops at some point.

hitting a moving target in space, even one as big as a Scarran dread with an ICBM is going to be almost impossible. ICBMs are designed to just barely leave the earth's atmosphere and then drop down again. They don't really have the maneuverability or fuel necessary to hit something that far out. If the Scarrans can land their ships like the PK’s can that's another story though I'm still not convinced our wussy little fusion nukes would even be able to damage their craft. These are the same races that have access to energy sources capable of destroying planets after all. If I recall correctly it takes something in the area of 1,000,000,000 megatons to completely ensure the destruction of the surface of a planet. That's conservative because it assumes when Grayza said destroy in terra firma she only meant kill all the life on the surface. If on the other hand she meant lets pop it death star style then that number gets a LOT bigger. Going by these demonstrated energy levels I'd say your typical frag cannon or Scarran dread gun probably already puts out a lot more juice than a typical Earth nuke. Logic then tells us if these ships can regularly trade shots at these energy levels anything we can throw at them is going to be worth about a spitwad.

Little bolts of light might have trouble penetrating Scarran hide, but I'm betting a few exploding bullets wouldn't.

John's little bolts of light completely vaped two target dummies in Terra Firma, we haven’t got anything that'll do that short of an anti tank weapon. Also remember how in the same episode that security guys 9mm bounced off the Screeth without even worrying it. I think our weapons are hopelessly inferior to theirs.

If JC wasn't as healthy as he has to be to get into a space program, I'm betting he'd have infected half the galaxy with some disease their immune systems weren't prepared to handle.

That would be a funny outcome, what’s not so funny is that it could easily go the other way as well.:eek:

*And* the Scarrans can't take the cold. We CAN. Even if we got wiped off the lower parts of the equator, humans could still and *would* still pester them from the cold bits. Or they'd be unprepared for an actual winter in our more 'temperate' regions and freeze to death then. And the PK couldn't handle our summers. So...

Quick everyone up here to Canada! Seriously though I think that either party could find a way to work around this. It's not as if they've never been to a multi climate planet before. Maybe we could profit off of selling some Scarran mittens?

They only want us for our WH abilities anyway - which I think may be as inately human as Pilot's, and you've seen how they treat pilots.

Now there's an interesting idea, I'd never even thought of that. Maybe this is why Scorpius was so eager to get Earth to sign up. Oh this will work out good for us though. First we get access to their spacecraft and then we use our knowledge of wormhole weapons to usurp their empire from them. All that oppose us shall then get flushed down the big cosmic drain as we take our rightful place as the inheritors of the ancient's power.

But what if almost *all* humans have the Wormhole navigating 'sense'?? We might end up as valuable pilots in a galactic civilization, sort of like the pilot-species (what were they called?) in the Dune universe.

I think it was just "navigators".

As for what the PKs might want to do with Earth later, I'm not sure. It is possible that we wouldn't be that interesting to them. It might be arrogant of us to assume we would be 'the hot commodity' in a galaxy full of more advanced species.

We'll probably end up with our whole planet plowed under and turned into a tannot root farm or something equally exciting.

Let me just expand this discussion a bit now.

If earth did join the PK alliance what do you think our primary export would be? What would Earth be known for across the uncharted territories.

[Frunium Slip]

Ah, the Peacekeeper racial purity thing...

Keep in mind that the only thing the Pk's hated more than inferior races (ie all others) and halfbreeds were their own traitors. The very fact that we do look like Sebaceans would probally work against us in any dealings with the Peacekeepers. The exception would be Scorpius, and he's only half Sebacean, making him tolerant of others. Remember the reactions of the Peacekeepers to all of Moya's crew during Into the Lion's Den. Promises by leaders aside, I feel the Peacekeepers would definitely be against any role of humans in their society. It would be too easy for the races to mix. Plus there would be many individuals on Earth that would be intolerant toward any species mixing.

By grunts I meant ground troops, with the understanding that we haven't seen any combat actions taken at any appreciable distances so far in any episode. Of course to many, grunts and cannon fodder are the same. ie: Lt. we're taking enemy fire, well call in the artillery and/or air strikes. Send 'em out let 'em get shot at and blast the enemy with the big guns.

[MoyaChick]

Originally posted by Ouroboros


Let me just expand this discussion a bit now.

If earth did join the PK alliance what do you think our primary export would be? What would Earth be known for across the uncharted territories.


Chocolate! :rollin:

[Harveylives]

I believe the pk's sand scarrens power hunger would lead to the earth being a blackmail tool to get wormhole tech out of JC. I would not trust them.
With such a destructive weapon as wormhole tech I would not trust any gov't to use it wisely.

[Morgan]

I wouldn't trust wormhole technology to any of our governments either.

I would choose to make an alliance with the PK's (but only if faced with immediate threat of Scarran invasion), because I really don't fancy being forced to breed half-Scarran offspring. I'd prefer manual labour.

In spite of being a Scorpius fan I have never liked the PK's, or the way they do things. But as many of you have pointed out, they are not genocidal.

With Earth as an ally to the PK's, I would fear exploitation and colonisation by them; but there would always be hope of revolution, rebellion, or of regaining our independance in some other way. The PK Empire might even go the way of most empires and crumble from within; but there is no coming back from genocide.

[Farscapegoat]

Our biggest export would probably be something extremely common or something way out of left field. Alot of great materials came from both origins. I believe the rubber tree was fairly unknown until rubber was figured out. Then on the otherside you have Vaseline which was a byproduct of oil drilling.

I'd kind of hope it would be sugar so we could get rid of enough of it to lose some frelling weight in all the over-priveliged areas of the world.

[SueDonym]

Couple of points here:

Scoprius has never, *ever* been a "simple starship captain". It's entirely possible he CAN negotiate a treaty. Or at least the beginnings of one, which frankly would be all that JC could negotiate. Then everything goes to committee and respective councils...and we know what THAT'S like.

Weak Human Vision: When JC put on those PK binoculars that Aeryn was using, his vision was SUPERIOR to hers...while using them. Maybe all we'd need are some PK glasses to shoot straight and true. In fact, there are several things that humans just seem to do better, truth be told...if we can go by JC, despite the fact that all the Moyans complain about him at times. Just time and time again he's pulled their fat out of the fire, and often in very 'human' ways. AT the very least, we're much more conductive...remember, Aeryn was surprised that John could get shocked by holding her when she touched a live wire. Maybe that's good for something...or maybe it ties into the way we're able to navigate wormholes so easily without turning into putty. At any rate, we DO have the whole potentially inate WH thing to put on the bartering table, which is mighty powerful indeed. :-)

...and another reason to insist on the whole galactic college thing, if any sort of treaty is brokered. We'd need to get up to speed. I *do* think humans are fairly adaptable (which might be a species advantage) and while we can't learn languages as fast as Sikozu's species, once the tech is in front of us, there's no reason to think that we couldn't get up to speed in a few...decades. I'm thinking its a bit like how post WWII Japan prides itself on rebuilding a commercial infastructure that (debatably) passed America's, at least for a time. You might be right Ouroboros about how long it would take us to develop the tech naturally, but once it's in front of us, I think we can figure it out more quickly. So 500 years instead of a 1000. ;)

There's always a possibility that we can pull a Greek vs Romans on them. Greeks got conqueored, but they culturally dominated the Romans. PK's don't seem to have much in the way of that type of thing (yes, I know) but perhaps this would be our major export. I imagine the PK would see the propaganda and training value of movies and the equivalent...the Moyan's apreciated it...and our ability to see film as a moving picture is a direct result of a human eye 'defect' - the persistance of vision. Apparent defects often turn into advantages, or can be used as such.

I still don't count the human out.
And I still don't like the PK.

Which brings us over to the export thing.
My vote for legitimate export (other than bodies or whatever natural resource the bastages insist on if they took over) would be 'cultural artifacts' - time wasters like games and the like, music, propaganda tools like film and media, etc.

My vote for ILLEGAL exports is of course SUGAR (with a high percentage of the 'good stuff' being chocolate - nicely picked MoyaChick)...

...and those damn flowers to the Sarrens in exchange for weapons with which to fight the PK. Face it, no matter who came along, there'd be a resistance movement, and if the PK save us from the Scarrens, it might be the Scarrens who "save us" from the PK. They'd be the logical choice to go to. Yuck. Politics make nasty bedfellows. Yet another reason just to fight both outright.

HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR!!!!!

<GRIN>

[Moyas_Ghost]

I agree with many of the comments about how trivially the PK's would see Earth. If it were up to me, I would side with the PK's if a Scarren invasion were imminent, but I wouldn't expect decent treatment. We are only one planet of people, not enough to be useful to an empire that covers multiple star systems. The PK's would not negotiate with Earth as equals. I do believe they would probably use Earth against John to get wormhole technology.

If Scorpius informed high command that Earth was potentially useful to Scarrens as a source of the flowers and useful in gaining Crichton's cooperation, they would probably park a couple of command carriers near the wormhole, but that's about it. Remember that without the wormhole, Earth is so far away as to be nearly useless. What did Scorpius say - 40 cycles by normal space travel? I wouldn't expect the PK's to even come through the wormhole and interact with us much. What ship do they have that can traverse wormholes? And worse, if they ever became convinced John wouldn't share wormhole tech and that our BOP flowers were as effective for the Scarrens as their own, then it is in the best interest of PK's to blow us up.

All in all, I wouldn't expect the alliance to be very prosperous for us Earthlings.

[Ouroboros]

Scoprius has never, *ever* been a "simple starship captain". It's entirely possible he CAN negotiate a treaty. Or at least the beginnings of one, which frankly would be all that JC could negotiate. Then everything goes to committee and respective councils...and we know what THAT'S like.

I was talking more about Braca actually. Anyway I don't think either of them could really fly it solo. Adding a new planet, especially one so far away and relatively useless as ours, would probably need to be approved on a lot of different levels. Scorpius might be able to pull some strings to see that we got accepted but ultimately. I agree, it would probably be decided by a proposal to some kind of council far, far away at PK high command. They'd then also have to spread the word to the rest of their fleet somehow. Do the PKs have any sort of negotiators, other than frag cannons I mean.

Weak Human Vision: When JC put on those PK binoculars that Aeryn was using, his vision was SUPERIOR to hers...while using them. Maybe all we'd need are some PK glasses to shoot straight and true.

Ick you just gave me visions of "super elite" Earther troops with these things grafted into their heads cybernetically. Perhaps biomechanical super troopers would be the destiny of our race.....how lovely. They could perform these sorts of military experiments on us rather than their own people since we're so similar but in their view less valuable, like lab monkeys.

...and another reason to insist on the whole galactic college thing, if any sort of treaty is brokered. We'd need to get up to speed. I *do* think humans are fairly adaptable (which might be a species advantage) and while we can't learn languages as fast as Sikozu's species, once the tech is in front of us, there's no reason to think that we couldn't get up to speed in a few...decades. I'm thinking its a bit like how post WWII Japan prides itself on rebuilding a commercial infastructure that (debatably) passed America's, at least for a time. You might be right Ouroboros about how long it would take us to develop the tech naturally, but once it's in front of us, I think we can figure it out more quickly. So 500 years instead of a 1000.

I think a lot of this would depend on to what extent we were allowed to examine their technology. If they set up schools with the intent of training our people as equals to be techs and such on their ships, we'd probably learn pretty fast, within a generation even. If on the other hand they kept it all to themselves and just used us to clean toilets on command carriers it might take us a while longer. My comments about the 30,000 years was to give us an idea of how long it would take us to "catch up" to them on our own if we didn't sign any treaties. Of course by the time we caught up they'd be 30,000 more years ahead of us again.

If Scorpius informed high command that Earth was potentially useful to Scarrens as a source of the flowers and useful in gaining Crichton's cooperation, they would probably park a couple of command carriers near the wormhole, but that's about it. Remember that without the wormhole, Earth is so far away as to be nearly useless. What did Scorpius say - 40 cycles by normal space travel? I wouldn't expect the PK's to even come through the wormhole and interact with us much. What ship do they have that can traverse wormholes? And worse, if they ever became convinced John wouldn't share wormhole tech and that our BOP flowers were as effective for the Scarrens as their own, then it is in the best interest of PK's to blow us up.

I have to agree here. If PK high command thought we had Scarran flowers it's very likely they'd decide to send a command carrier to blow up our planet in order to deny those flowers to the Scarrans. There's an interesting question. Does PK high command know that the Scarrans depend on a flower to be smart. Scorpius figured it out so I would think he'd have reported it right.

I think Scorpy said 60 cycles (years) of travel through normal space.

Another interesting question, would all those Scarrans in the Stryker have turned to goo even if John hadn't collapsed the wormhole on them? I only got to see the first half of bad timing but that is what happened right, the collapse not the goo.

Perhaps it would fall to us to create a ship that could traverse wormholes safely and get to them. Hey we built John's module right. Sure our ship would be hopelessly slow and unarmed but if we could get through the wormhole we'd have an advantage as we wouldn't have to bring anyone to Earth we didn't want to. At least not until they jacked our ship in a commando raid or copied it for themselves.

There's always a possibility that we can pull a Greek vs Romans on them. Greeks got conqueored, but they culturally dominated the Romans. PK's don't seem to have much in the way of that type of thing (yes, I know) but perhaps this would be our major export.

Problem is there's so many more of them than of us it's more likely our culture would be the one to get squashed out. It's also likely they'd reject things we tried to give them just because they were alien and therefore bad/inferior.

By grunts I meant ground troops, with the understanding that we haven't seen any combat actions taken at any appreciable distances so far in any episode. Of course to many, grunts and cannon fodder are the same. ie: Lt. we're taking enemy fire, well call in the artillery and/or air strikes. Send 'em out let 'em get shot at and blast the enemy with the big guns.

Ahh yes just like the old king from Braveheart.

CC Captain: Open fire.

XO: Sir we'll hit our own troops.

Captain: Yes but we'll hit theirs as well.

XO: Commence planetary bombardment.

Captain: They're only Earthers anyway.

Ground combat, and space combat for that matter, is something I always wanted to see in Farscape. We know next to nothing about the capabilities of the spacecraft let alone PK armored ground vehicles, artillery and armies.

Promises by leaders aside, I feel the Peacekeepers would definitely be against any role of humans in their society. It would be too easy for the races to mix. Plus there would be many individuals on Earth that would be intolerant toward any species mixing.

Problem is racial intolerance tends to spring from superficial differences in appearance. We look so much like them that it would be difficult for them to tell at a glance that we were differant. Unless every PK is walking around with a gene scanner or we're forced to wear some sort of identification mark like the Nazi's employed on the Jews in WW2 it seems as if it would be pretty hard for us to hate one another when no one can tell who’s on what team. One thing though, have we ever seen a Peacekeeper of a "race" other than Caucasian?

[Morgan]

We have seen, to the best of my knowledge two non-Caucasian Peacekeepers.

1: Plint in "Wolf in Sheeps Clothing" parts 1 and 2: Supermodel type. Works under Braca and played cards with some of the Moyans.

2: Crais. (Lani Tupu is Samoan).

Oh and we may include Niem and Grayza who both have non-human eye-colours as being non-Caucasian.

If dear Strappa counts as a Peacekeeper, (as opposed to someone who is just working for the PK's) then he is definitely non-Caucasian.

Amend then there is Scorpius, definitely a Peacekeeper, and as there are no Scarrans originatng from the Caucasus mountains, he is also definitely non-Caucasian.

[Grippy]

Some thoughts...

1) Unless I am severely misremembering, John was not compatable with all sebaceans. In the Look At The Princess Trilogy, his first "sweet" aka genetically compatable kiss was with Katralla. It was kind of obvious he'd kissed several women at least...Katralla had funky DNA also. It was never explored why Aeryn was compatable with him. Peacekeepers couldn't, and wouldn't want to breed with us. As far as everything I've seen, they're more than a little Xenophobic. Yes we look like them, but identifying a human would be easier than you think. I.e: eyes, can you picture a human squinting at print that is perfectly legible for a sebacean? By the way, when did we see that John's vision with oculars (those Peacekeeper goggles he wore) was so much better than Aeryns? I remember only getting a picture of what he saw, not what she saw. Tech, we'd all have no idea what was going on there, and moreso, culture. I've met a lot of humans who are very affectionate, emotional, personable people. These are not welcome traits amongst the Peacekeepers. In other words, it would be possible to find a human short of a genetic scan.

I can see us looking like them being a cause of more prejudice, not less. We look like them but we're not as good as they are, so they'd probably treat us as a lower being at the very best.

2) Peackeepers don't really go for cultural differences. I think they'd take all our chocolate, and whip out the black and red and leather. We'd be faceless drones inside of a decade. Maybe a few humans could hide in deserts or something, but I don't think that would work out all that well. Yes they treat their colonies well, the same way a slaver will treat his slaves well if he wants them to be productive for him!

3) I could easily be vastly wrong, but I always thought that the Ancients put the wormhole navagating sense in John. I know that doesn't explain how he got through the first time, but maybe wormhole travel works based on the metalurgical composition of the travelling ship. :shrug: I kinda got the idea that the wormhole stuff was all one package, you know, equations, wormhole sense, navigation, etc.

4) Maybe I sound stupid, but I don't think Earth would be able to remain independent in any fashion if either the Peacekeepers or the Scarrans got their hands on it. They'd exploit us, experiment on us, and use us till the usability was gone. No I don't think we're a hot commodity, but I do think we're undiscovered. They know very little about us, and would happily use us to discover what they may.

Technological gains aside, I think either alliance would be disasterous in terms of maintaining our freedom. Maybe our governments aren't that fantastic now, but I'd rather be ruled by a human than someone who had to figure out what a human was.

[||Scorpius||]

As humans we love our freedom, and on the whole we are more trouble than we are worth as slaves.
But if it came down to it, we'd *have* to ally with someone to prevent a Scarran takeover. I don't believe we could win by ourselves. And in that situation, the PKs beat the Scarrans. They beat total annihilation by an even greater margin. ;)

The PK vote in the poll says "Sign me up Commandant: The gains far outweigh the sacrifices, space here I come"
I agree with everything but the Commandant bit.
I'm not on that bitch's side, no way no how.
I'd rather be dead than at her mercy. I would never make *any* deal with Grayza.
I don't class all Sebaceans or PKs with her, is the thing. Not all of them are that depraved. Very few could be.

As for the PKs: if they outstayed their welcome, could figure out how to get rid of them later, after we absorb all their tech... :P
At least you can kill them with a bullet or knife, which, I suspect, wouldn't even phase a Scarran.

[darius]

John Crichton is a genius among humans, so when he has insights that everyone else on moya doesn't, it isn't really representative to all humans.

I think that John Crichton would eventually choose to ally with the PKs, beacuse the Scarrans would probably try to make hybrids like Scorpius only without his major weakness. All the evidence on the show points to the fact that the Scarrans are trying to find a way around their dependence on the flowers.

[Ouroboros]

I agree with everything but the Commandant bit.

Oh Scorpy,:lol it's just a rank, and the highest one we've seen so it makes more sense than captain and it didn't feel right putting ambassador (who wants to talk to a frag cannon). Plus it's a fun word. You really do hate her don't you...Or are you just trying to cover up a crush perhaps? Tell me if you saw little Mele-on in real life do you think you'd be at all likely to pull her hair and run away giggling ?:D


As humans we love our freedom, and on the whole we are more trouble than we are worth as slaves.

I definitely agree with this, what is it that would make us good slaves? We're weak, we're fragile, we complain a lot and we're not very work oriented like ants or anything. It seems like there would be a lot of better choices for a slave race available than humans.

At least you can kill them with a bullet or knife, which, I suspect, wouldn't even phase a Scarran.

Agreed again, provided you can even get a civilian worked up enough to actually try and attack a Scarran. I wonder though if their hide is just really heat resistant thus making them immune to pulse blasts which are heat based. Perhaps the kinetic attack of a .50 anti material rifle would have more luck. At the very least the impact should pulverize some organs even if the skin holds.

I can see us looking like them being a cause of more prejudice, not less. We look like them but we're not as good as they are, so they'd probably treat us as a lower being at the very best.

I wonder if we could get our hands on some of that genetic alteration stuff Chi and Noranti used in Bringing home the beacon. It's to bad they never showed what the treatment involves, is it a pill, an operation, what. Whatever it was it couldn't have taken too long, they left pretty fast.

We have seen, to the best of my knowledge two non-Caucasian Peacekeepers.

1: Plint in "Wolf in Sheeps Clothing" parts 1 and 2: Supermodel type. Works under Braca and played cards with some of the Moyans.

I don't remember this person what race was she?

2: Crais. (Lani Tupu is Samoan).

Ahh yes. I'm really looking more for a black or asian person though. I can't recall ever seeing one or the other.

Oh and we may include Niem and Grayza who both have non-human eye-colours as being non- Caucasian.

What colour were Niem's eyes again, yellow? Grayza's we're purple or blue depending on what episode you watch. What ever became of Niem anyway?

If dear Strappa counts as a Peacekeeper, (as opposed to someone who is just working for the PK's) then he is definitely non-Caucasian.

Who was Strappa again? I keep thinking of Kokura.

Some of these things you've mentioned may just give us hope. Scorpius, Kokura, that wormhole woman who worked with him, the screeth, those two trackers that worked with Aeryn's mom, PKs seem to tolerate other aliens so long as they're useful so maybe if we could prove ourselves useful we'd be accepted as equals or at least not animals.

[Grippy]

Kokura's name is Kokura Strappa.

I do agree that it would be better to ally with Peacekeepers than be conquered by scarrans, but I guess I'm not much fond of Peacekeeper relations with other races.

I agree with ||Scorpius|| that Grayza's not the person to go with though.

[Frunium Slip]

My opinion is that Grayza is on her way out in Peacekeeper high command. She staked her reputation on the treaty with the Scarrans to help solidify a take over of the Supreme Council. Her failure and subsequent removal from command by Braca would not go to well with the PK high command. Wouldn't suprise me if she ended up on Moya with all the other wandering souls seeking assylum. I mean they did take Crais and even Scorpius in against Crichton's wishes, so why not Grayza?

Of course barring the Yoda factor, if she causes any trouble we just lock her up!

Wouldn't ||Scorpius|| just love that!

Edited to add:

As she stomps her wittle foot...

[Morgan]

Originally posted by Grippy
Kokura's name is Kokura Strappa.
......
I agree with ||Scorpius|| that Grayza's not the person to go with though.


Strappa is quite one of my favourite guest characters. I do hope he survived what Crichton did to him in the Aurora chair without too much damage. Sadly, the last we see of him, he is screaming. Such a nice person deserved a better ending.
: (

Ditto Grippy about Grayza, who is incapable of treating anyone decently. I always wanted to see her in a cat-fight with Akhna.
<eg>


Plint is a light-skinned black MAN, (not all supermodels are female). I was unable to find out the name of the actor who played him, but he caused quite a stir amongst the female members of The Sanctum of Scorpius. He was unusual for a Peacekeeper also because of his friendliness to Moya's crew.

If we recall the attitude of some of the male PK's towards Chiana in Nerve, it seems not all PK's dislike non-Sebaceans. However, a willingness to sexually exploit members of other races does not equal respect for them. Recall Grayza's rape of Crichton and the Scarrens forced breeding programmes. *shudder"

[Ouroboros]

Kokura's name is Kokura Strappa.

I do agree that it would be better to ally with Peacekeepers than be conquered by scarrans, but I guess I'm not much fond of Peacekeeper relations with other races.

I agree with ||Scorpius|| that Grayza's not the person to go with though.

Kokura Strappa, well that explains that.

As far as Grayza, who really cares, it not as if she's going to be declared supreme ruler of the Earth because she was the one that suggested the hypothetical treaty. It wouldn't really matter who was the one that proposed it it's who high command would assign do deal with us that we'd have to worry about. Knowing how out of the way and unimportant Earth is to the PK's we'd probably end up with some guy who'd screwed up just about every other assignment they'd given him and was forced to oversee Earth as punishment.

My opinion is that Grayza is on her way out in Peacekeeper high command. She staked her reputation on the treaty with the Scarrans to help solidify a take over of the Supreme Council. Her failure and subsequent removal from command by Braca would not go to well with the PK high command. Wouldn't suprise me if she ended up on Moya with all the other wandering souls seeking assylum. I mean they did take Crais and even Scorpius in against Crichton's wishes, so why not Grayza?

I got the impression from BHtB that she had a lot of supporters/brainwashees back at high command and was leading something of an internal coup to grab power for her political party. If this is the case she may not stay locked up for long at all or get released on some silly technicality. Having friends in high places is nice and it seems as if there are PKs who do like her, look at Relchek's reaction in itLD. He apparently knew her from before and disobeyed his CO and risked his life to do her bidding, she didn't even have to heppel him. I do agree that it would be interesting to see her on moya though. With Scorpius and Crais gone they need a new lost PK to take in.

Ditto Grippy about Grayza, who is incapable of treating anyone decently. I always wanted to see her in a cat-fight with Akhna.

Scorpius' feelings aside I don't believe her to be as terrible as she's often declared. For example in bringing home the beacon she could have shot Chi and Noranti as she escaped with Braca, it would have taken all of 2 seconds to do it, but she didn't. She also didn't bother chasing any of them despite her carrier being possibly in orbit around the station or definately near by, was this gratitude?

In fact after that episode where Aeryn saved her and Braca from the Scarrans I don't recall her taking any directly hostile action toward the moyans at all. She seemed to have shifted her attention to Aknah and the Scarran treaty.

Plint is a light-skinned black MAN, (not all supermodels are female). I was unable to find out the name of the actor who played him, but he caused quite a stir amongst the female members of The Sanctum of Scorpius. He was unusual for a Peacekeeper also because of his friendliness to Moya's crew.

He's a guy, ok I admit the supermodel thing threw me off. I'll have to look for him next time I watch this ep.

If we recall the attitude of some of the male PK's towards Chiana in Nerve, it seems not all PK's dislike non-Sebaceans. However, a willingness to sexually exploit members of other races does not equal respect for them. Recall Grayza's rape of Crichton and the Scarrens forced breeding programmes. *shudder"

There have been instances when PK's showed respect for alien beings. For example the Screeth who Grayza entrusted with a very important and vital mission and the two tracking creatures used by Xalax's retrieval squad. All of these creatures were treated as valuable by their commanders, equal to any Sebacean under their command.

Also when you say Grayza raped Crichton are you referring to it in a metaphorical sense to describe how she drugged him and "raped" his mind in a manner similar to Scorpy's chair or are you referring directly to forced sexual intercourse. While I will not dispute the former there is no evidence what so ever to support the latter. There is in fact evidence both in logic and observation of past and future behaviors to discount it. It is one of the more common exaggerations employed to bash her.

[Morgan]

Crichton called Grayza a rapist.

Thats good enough for me.

His emotional distress afterwards is not something I would care to belittle.

[||Scorpius||]

"Or are you just trying to cover up a crush perhaps?"

Just because I loathe your Farscape girlfriend...or whatever, is no reason to be insulting. *feh* Just because some folks get off on being dominated by someone as needy, manipulative, and essentially powerless as Grayza...doesn't mean we all do.
Exposed breasts are a dime a dozen. Woop te frellin' doo. Hers are not even that great. I mean, that's her appeal, isn't it? What else has she got going for her but her outfit and her ability to rape men?

I simply couldn't find her more repulsive.
She has 'cheated' her way into a command position by using a really skanky excretion that takes away others' free will. Not only is that pathetic, it is disgusting. In WWL II JC made it clear that her eau de polecat stench didn't even wash off with water. Gross.

I resent her as a FS character because she is the highest ranking PK woman we have ever seen, and the total implication is that the only way she got there was by hypnotising men with titty sweat. That implication is sexist and insulting to women, don't you think? A woman who had *earned* her command through merit would have the self respect to eschew any method as weak as the sexual manipulation of men, and would insist on being their equal or better--and prove it by competing as an equal with them. A powerful woman would use her brains, experience, and skill to *earn* real respect. She has done things for which there is no logic, no excuse but sadism.

I love powerful women. But Grayza is far from being one. I think the point of her as a character is that she is depraved, a rapist, power-needy, and a sadist.

Hate? I see her for what she is, imho: a waste of Sebacean flesh. She is not worthy of my hate.
If I met 'ol 'Melon Greaser' in the FS universe, I wouldn't speak to her, or bother to make her suffer, or even look at her longer than it would take to put a bullet into her sick, depraved brain. End of Story.

;)

------------------
ok, non caucasoids on FS (speaking in the sense of human actors):
Lani Tupu
The Spider Woman in Twice Shy
Plint, Braca's Second
The pilot who got goo-i-fied in Losing Time
Nurse Froy in Incubator
and I seem to recall a few non-whites appearing as extras in the last half of season four (as if they were trying to do that a bit more, as fans have been bitching)..can't be more specific than that.

In the PK context: Crais (maybe), Plint, the LT pilot, and Froy are the only ones I can think of at the moment.
Sort of sad, innit?

Linfer and Co-kura Strappa were both non-Sebaceans. Niem was too: in that ep (what is it called?) where Crichton says "Stick a lobster on my head", they were on a planet populated by Niem's race. They had the pointed bangs and the ice-blue eyes just like Niem.
No one knows what became of Niem, btw.

I think that Scorpius on purpose *chose* non-Sebaceans to work with him. Note that both Linfer and Strappa had pale skin like him. Perhaps he didn't have to deal with as much 'bigoted stupidity' with them than with regular PKs. I mean, sheesh, look at the way Drellig acted! He literally was begging for a courts martial.

-----
Frunium:
Grayza couldn't have staked her 'reputation' on that treaty with the Scarrans, could she? Wasn't it totally secret? When she met with Ahkna on the asteroid in BHtB, it was totally secret; I thought Central Command didn't even know about it, and I'm sure they didn't know she was about to betray the Luxans.
Just as Scorpius had tried to tell everyone: the Scarrans see treaties as a sign of weakness. It's bad when even a Scarran is disgusted by your methods. I think that, and the fact that Grayza would betray the Luxans without so much as a 'by your leave', made Ahkna attack her as soon as the treaty was signed.
I had to LOL when Ahkna showed disgust at Grayza's "slut" look.

Braca was wise to bide his time until Grayza had exhibited irrationality in public several times. He relieved her of command in a legal way. He has bridge officers as witnesses. That is going to look good to Central Command.

One thing I do not get at all is A. what happened to bioloid Grayza, and was one made? and B. What the frell was Grayza doing with a CC, that deep in Scarran space, at their top secret flower-growing, Emperor-hosting base? and C. What Central Command-sanctioned authority did she have *if any*, to make a treaty with the Scarrans?

_____________
"I wonder though if their hide is just really heat resistant thus making them immune to pulse blasts which are heat based."

In "Incubator" we see Scorpius being taught by Tauza that Sebaceans are weak and inferior -- specifically in that 'lesson' (read: indoctrination) because of their easily penetrated skin.
The reason Scorpius stuck the coolant rod fragments into Grayza's eyes [edited to correct that to TAUZA'S eyes--their names are similar for a reason, and hey, forgive a little wish fulfillment here :)] was because that was the only place on her body vulnerable enough for him to be able to kill her. In Season of Death, they shot Plonek again and again with plasma fire, and finally making a small wound in his stomach. JC then stabbed him with a big icicle. D'argo, I believe, had already tried to stab him wiht a knife (before he got the pulse blast wound) and it *broke off against his skin!*

http://scorpius-farscape.tv/master/scarrans.html

[||Scorpius||]

Oh frell.
I just saw this:
___________________
Ouroboros said:
"Also when you say Grayza raped Crichton are you referring to it in a metaphorical sense to describe how she drugged him and "raped" his mind in a manner similar to Scorpy's chair or are you referring directly to forced sexual intercourse. While I will not dispute the former there is no evidence what so ever to support the latter. There is in fact evidence both in logic and observation of past and future behaviors to discount it. It is one of the more common exaggerations employed to bash her.
__________________________________________

Ricky Manning laughed in disbelief when we told him some guy on #Farscape was going on about how "Crichton wasn't raped."
According to Manning-- the executive producer of the show and a writer for Farscape-- Crichton *Was* raped by Grayza. Sexually. Forced sexual intercourse. Raped. He said so in no uncertain terms, and was surprised anyone saw it otherwise.

And if Ricky saying so wasnt' enough proof, the way Crichton acted after he was raped should have been plenty enough of an indication that he was. It was piteous to see JC in that state. It was heart-breaking---and it doesn't take his biggest fan to see that. I was appalled by it, and I pity JC for it. Not only that, I literally was sickened by it. What Was Lost was a really, really hard ep to take; and I think they went too far with it--both in Scorpius' torture and Crichton's rape. Sick.

Other proof: when Grayza uses the tittystench on someone, she can manipulate their mind, and through that, their body. This wouldn't work with Scorpius, so she had to resort to poison to make him lose control of his muscles so she could make him do what she wanted. Doubt it? She has to tell Braca to re-poison him because 'he is regaining muscular control'. He fought her the whole time, but she controlled his body mentally. That is what she did to Crichton also. She forced the both of them. It was the same with Braca. You could see that she was controlling his body in several scenes, including the one where she asks him if he regrets what they are doing to Scorpius. He looked as if he did, then she exerted more control, and you could see him lose his thoughts to hers. It was obvious Scorpius, Crichton and Braca were not going along willingly. At ALL. To say they were is...a vast and unjustifiable insult to all three of them.

If the Chair and Chip were rape, then *every* thing that someone has done to someone else without their consent is rape. That would mean Crichton was a rapist too--he's tortured and killed people. And Chiana, and D'argo, and Noranti, and Pilot, and Aeryn and ...yadda yadda yadda....would be rapists too.
They aren't!

To take rape, ie sexual assault, something done sheerly for the purpose of dominating someone, or perverse gratification, or such, and change the definition to suit, is, imho, a fairly horrific bending of the truth. Someone who had been raped would probably be pretty damn furious about that. If you want to define rape as anything done against someone's will, then again, you have to agree that everyone on Farscape is a rapist. Which, obviously, is Rubbish.

As for the heinous slander that Scorpius is a rapist:
Scorpius never sexually assaulted Crichton or anyone else. He wasn't getting off on putting JC in the chair, even if you count that as rape, which I think is ridiculous. Also, the producers, writers and Pygram have said several times each that Scorpius isn't sadistic. He isn't getting off on causing others pain.

Scorpius simply is not capable of rape. If you think so, you totally misunderstand his character--on a very fundamental level.
If you *recall*: what Scorpius is on about is that his Mother was raped by the Scarrans. He absolutely *despises* the Scarrans for doing that. He fell to the ground, wept, and then threw up when he was shown the vid of his mother's rape.

And look how he was with Sikozu: he let her make the first move. He is very protective of women, look how he saved Chi's life in CBC, and protected Sikozu in Twice Shy. Even Natira made the first move when they reunited in LGM. And anything he did with Natira *obviously* was consensual and mutually pleasurable--ditto with Sikozu too.

Skreeth respected by Grayza? As if. She used Skreeth. She didn't even care about her second in command's feelings. She is beyond self deluded if she thinks Braca enjoyed being humilliated, raped, abused, and used by her. And she is self deluded. But that doesn't make her not a rapist.
Rape is Grayza's modus operandi.
You are really deluding yourself if you think Grayza is *anything* but a rapist.

[waltersgirl]

couldn't you guys just agree that you disagree about who the bigger bastard is and move on?

[waltersgirl]

let me qualify that actually. agree to disagree so that you can get back to some of the compelling analyses that take place in here. one side will be unable to convince the other when sides are entrenched. but when the focus shifts back to ep analysis and theoretical discussion and away from convincing, then groovy insight follows.

[taechunsa]

>-Earth is hopelessly behind in technology, the PK and Scarran races have
>existed for at least 30,000 years according to info from WWL. Can we really
>hope to compete even if and when we get our own starships and take to
>space in the future? Or will we just be prolonging our own inevitable defeat.

Where did the 30,000 years come from? I only remember the quote of the peace being maintained 12,000 cycles ago. There was also the 500 generations thing, but it was unclear as to if this was before or after the 12,000 years.

>Actually age is pretty important. Not only does it tell us the PKs have been
>expanding for a really long time but it also gives us a pretty good measuring
>stick as to how long it takes to develop that kind of technology. Sebaceans
>aren't any dumber or smarter than humans from what I can tell so it would
>seem that it should take us just as long to accomplish the same, while they
>continue to advance of course.

The interesting thing that so many people do not understand about technology is that it is not a linearly progressing phenomenon.

Lets look at our oldest civilizations on the Earth. By the above argument the oldest civilizations on the Earth should be the most technologically advanced. Therefore, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Indians,and the Chinese are the most technologically advanced powerhouses on the Earth? No. Why not, they are the oldest? Great advances in technology are only fostered in times of need. If a civilization is content with the way it is and the setup of the society is counterproductive to free thinking then there will be little advancement. Even in twenty to thirty thousand years.

Keep this in mind. The ancient Greeks knew how to make electricity (fruit battery). They used it in medicine, but never used it in the way that we do today. How much more advanced do you think the Earth would be if two to three thousand years ago the computer was invented? It wasn’t a lack of knowledge it was a lack of imagination and the PK’s method of operation is completely geared toward lack of imagination. Did you ever wonder why there were virtually no Sebaceans designing on any of the really experimental stuff?

There is also the fact that not all knowledge survives. Some inventions are lost for ages before they must be rediscovered. Therefore, what the PK knew of ten thousand years ago. They might just be rediscovering now.

Therefore, while the technological edge is definitely there it is not insurmountable. I mean look at how short of a time it took for us humans to develop most of our truly insidious weapons. WWII ring a bell.

>-They have nice technology: Advanced Pk technology could possibly solve many
>of the problems that exist on Earth today such as disease.

The ‘gift’ of technology is a double-edged sword. The ‘gift’ of technology from one culture to the next on Earth has led to some of our worst problems. The ancients are a very wise race. They knew that only technology discovered through ones own efforts would be less likely to be abused. Look at some of our worst areas in terms of overpopulation. The ‘gift’ of advanced medicines led to many of the afflictions in these areas. It might sound cold to say that we shouldn’t give these people medicine, but without the time it took for these societies to develop these medicines themselves they didn’t have time to adjust their societal structure to accommodate the changes. A family that need to have ten children so that four might grow to adulthood now might have nine of the ten grow to adulthood virtually overnight.

The ‘gift’ of technology is a Pandora’s box that we might not want to open.

>-The Scarrans are out there to, and they're a lot worse: It goes without saying
>that it would be worse to get conquered by the Scarrans than to join the Pks
>willingly. Earth right now is just a lonely low tech victim waiting to be annexed
>by some vicious alien empire. If we allied with the PK's we would join one such
>power without the bloodshed and pain that come with a conquest. We'd get
>protection and security for our future.

Ah, the problem that we in the US are dealing with. How much freedom are we willing to sacrifice for safety? I don’t have an answer for this one. It is a spectrum that has good and bad to both sides. I personally could use a little less freedom and a little more safety, but the catch is getting the loss of a few freedoms today from turning into a loss of all freedoms tomorrow.

>-Hey we're probably related anyway: It's pretty obvious that humans and
>Sebaceans have a lot in common mind as well get together and figure out
>why.

This is one of the things that I hardly ever hear mentioned. It is clear, to me at least, that in WWL there was a very strong link drawn for the relation of humans, sabaceans, and interons. It is most likely, in my mind, that we are all offshoots of a much older race.

>But the PK's might not treat humans as badly as other "lesser races".
>
>They look like us, they're related, and they can even breed with us. Racial
>purity aside, nobody could TELL if you were dating a Sebacean or a human
>short of a genetic scan, and probably a pretty detailed on at that. Hell, PK
>headquarters might even recruit us because we can "take the heat" and they
>can't. The two species breed, and no more heat delirium.

I agree with Darth Buddha. I don’t think that the PK would treat humans nearly as bad as they do other races. We are ‘kissing cousins’ as Crichton puts it. If we are distantly related then that means we are not really a lesser race, just a different path of the same. Although, this didn’t stop Hitler, and the same arguments could apply to Jews and Nazis.

Then there are the applications of the much-touted hatred of interspecies mating. I didn’t see very many PK turning down Chi at the Gammak base. Dargo married a Sebacean and the comment was made about more half-breeds appearing all of the time when Jothe was introduced. It didn’t take too long for Aeryn to overcome her aversion, or Gilina, or Jena for that matter. The Royal Sebaceans, I know they aren’t PK, didn’t seem to have a huge problem with having a half-breed for an heir. There are laws and there are applications of those laws. Some people are going to believe them and follow them, but a lot of people are only going to pay homage. Did you know that it is illegal in many states of the US to have sex in any position other than missionary? How many people do you think pay attention to that law?

Then of course there is my favorite, the unrealized reality in which John is a PK captain. This had to come about somehow. Which means that either the PK were radically different in that reality, which I wouldn’t guess from the supplied info, or they are more open minded then we think.

>I was thinking the same thing. The possibility of breeding out their heat delirium
>would surely be one they'd want to explore. The only thing I have to wonder is
>would these hypothetical human hybrids also loose their superior Sebacean vision.
>If that were the case, and considering the war oriented nature of the PK's they
>might not be willing to go for that trade off.

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that all of the, supposed, physical advantages of Sebaceans to humans are natural. Here is what I see. You have a race of beings that have advanced technology, at least a very decent grasp of genetics, and a penchant for war. How little gene tampering would it take to make a Sebacean have a little better eyesight? I read an article about a month ago in which scientist were experimenting with injecting alternate wavelength sensitive cells into eyes. The long reaching consequence of this research is that humans could be made sensitive to both ultraviolet and infrared light. Thus adding several new colors to our perception and allowing us to see things that we cannot now. So a little super soldiering a couple of hundred generations ago and now Sebaceans have very good eyesight that has nothing to do with evolution, but is also considered a natural ability of all.

>Another thing to consider is there is a LOT more of them then there are of us.
>We're only one planet worth of population they're an interstellar empire of
>indeterminate size. This would mean that our genetic impact on the whole of
>their race would probably be quite minimal if allowed to occur naturally. We'd
>pretty much just be absorbed into their species over the course of a few
>generations.

The Goths were only one small group of people when they entered the incredibly large empire of Rome, but they ended up running the whole thing. Even as they were absorbed.

>I don't think we'd work as grunts for them. Remember that one ep where they
>read off of a vase from across the room to show of their eyesight. John Crichton
>can't read it but everyone else can, including Aeryn. If their vision is that much
>better than ours is naturally, we'd be at a disadvantage on the battlefield. Cannon
>fodder though.....that's different.

I have always had a real problem with the supposed physical superiority of the Sebaceans to humans. This is said a few times and shown hardly ever, in fact never that I can remember. It is said that Sebaceans are faster, stronger, and just all around much better than humans. However, John doesn’t have much trouble trouncing PK grunts left and right in a one-on-one fight, and this is even with the differences in training. John was able to physically beat Aeryn in ‘Crackers Don’t Matter’ again despite the fact that she had been trained since infancy to fight and was very much trying to kill, or at least severely maim, him. In ‘Unrealized Realities’ he was able to fight her to a stand still until he let his guard down thinking that she was the same Aeryn that he had known. I just have a hard time swallowing all of this physical superiority junk.

>hitting a moving target in space, even one as big as a Scarran dread with an ICBM
>is going to be almost impossible. ICBMs are designed to just barely leave the
>earth's atmosphere and then drop down again. They don't really have the
>maneuverability or fuel necessary to hit something that far out.

As stupid as you might think us. We have not been fighting wars since before the beginning of history without learning something about doing it well. I.E. don’t use an ICBM. Nucs can be mounted on a lot of other things.

>If the Scarrans can land their ships like the PK’s can that's another story though
>I'm still not convinced our wussy little fusion nukes would even be able to damage
>their craft. These are the same races that have access to energy sources capable of
>destroying planets after all. If I recall correctly it takes something in the area of
>1,000,000,000 megatons to completely ensure the destruction of the surface of a
>planet. That's conservative because it assumes when Grayza said destroy in terra
>firma she only meant kill all the life on the surface. If on the other hand she meant
>lets pop it death star style then that number gets a LOT bigger. Going by these
>demonstrated energy levels I'd say your typical frag cannon or Scarran dread gun
>probably already puts out a lot more juice than a typical Earth nuke. Logic then
>tells us if these ships can regularly trade shots at these energy levels anything we
>can throw at them is going to be worth about a spitwad.

First, you underestimate the power of the nucs. John’s even wussier fission bomb, weaker than fussion, did a good enough job on Katratzi. Also, you assume that since they are capable of destroying a planet, and I think this means destroy all life not blow up as in Death Star, that this means that their ships are capable of withstanding the same forces. American nuclear submarines have enough firepower to level a country, but they couldn’t even come close to withstanding a blast from even a small nuclear device. Firepower doesn’t necessarily translate to damage absorbing abilities. Firepower also doesn’t necessarily translate to what would happen in ship to ship combat. Again with the submarine example. Let say that two nuclear subs, both carrying enough firepower to destroy a country, are fighting each other. Do they fight each other with their nucs? No they fight each other with torpedoes of other weapons. There most powerful weapons are not used against other ships. Therefore, I think that nuclear weapons would be a decent weapon to use against the Scarrans, but I also don’t think it would allow us to win.

>John's little bolts of light completely vaped two target dummies in Terra Firma,
>we haven’t got anything that'll do that short of an anti tank weapon. Also
>remember how in the same episode that security guys 9mm bounced off the
>Screeth without even worrying it. I think our weapons are hopelessly inferior
>to theirs.

I agree that our weapons are inferior to theirs. However, that doesn’t mean that they won’t be able to damage them, especially with some modifications. Example. Fire a high calaber rifle at a milk jug full of water and it will make it explode. Shoot an arrow at a milk jug full of water and it won’t. Fire a bullet at a bucket of sand and it won’t make it through to the other side, I know that some would, fire an arrow at the same bucket of sand and it will pace clean through. Different weapons interact with different materials in different ways. Just because a pulse pistol can ‘vape’ a target dummy and a bullet can’t doesn’t mean that a bullet might not be more dangerous to a Scarran than a pulse pistol. As for the 9mm it isn’t designed to pierce armor. If you want another example consider ‘I Shrink Therefore I Am’. In that episode John’s pulse pistol and the DRD’s lasers had no effect on the Coreeshi, but his ‘bear trap’ sure did the job quickly and efficiently. The bear trap is the same principle as a bullet a lot of momentum applied to a small area.

>I think Scorpy said 60 cycles (years) of travel through normal space.

It was 60 cycles at maximum speed.

>Unless I am severely misremembering, John was not compatable with all
>sebaceans. In the Look At The Princess Trilogy, his first "sweet" aka genetically
>compatable kiss was with Katralla. It was kind of obvious he'd kissed several
>women at least...Katralla had funky DNA also. It was never explored why Aeryn
>was compatable with him.

The compatibility was for the chance to have ‘healthy’ children. Whatever that means exactly. You also can’t read too much into the compatability thing for John and the other Sebaceans. If the Sebaceans have to use the junk with their own race they either have some serious reproductive issues, or it means more than hey we can have kids.

>Peacekeepers couldn't, and wouldn't want to breed with us. As far as everything
>I've seen, they're more than a little Xenophobic. Yes we look like them, but
>identifying a human would be easier than you think. I.e: eyes, can you picture a
>human squinting at print that is perfectly legible for a sebacean?

Oh my lord. I knew it. I knew it. I must get might foil lined ball cap and quiet eating fatty foods. Because my optometrist office is overflowing with aliens who have to squint to read the same thing that I do. J

>By the way, when did we see that John's vision with oculars (those Peacekeeper
>goggles he wore) was so much better than Aeryns? I remember only getting a
>picture of what he saw, not what she saw.

I was wondering this myself.

>Tech, we'd all have no idea what was going on there, and moreso, culture. I've met
>a lot of humans who are very affectionate, emotional, personable people. These are
>not welcome traits amongst the Peacekeepers. In other words, it would be possible
>to find a human short of a genetic scan.

You are thinking in terms of PK. While it is not always readily obvious in the show Sebacean and PK is not a completely synonymous term. There are Sebaceans who are not PK and there are PK who are not Sebacean. So just because a being is affectionate, emotional, and personable doesn’t mean that he is automatically not a Sebacean. It just means that the Sebacean might not be PK.

>I can see us looking like them being a cause of more prejudice, not less. We look
>like them but we're not as good as they are, so they'd probably treat us as a lower
>being at the very best.

I have to agree with the earlier statement. Our similar appearances would tend to lessen the prejudice.

>John Crichton is a genius among humans, so when he has insights that everyone
>else on moya doesn't, it isn't really representative to all humans.

Einstein, the real Einstein, said that imagination is more important than intelligence. So while John might be a genius it is his imagination that sets him apart, not his intelligence.

Anyway, to answer the original question. I think that if worse comes to worse the PK would be a better alternative than destruction at the hands of the Scarrans. They might not be the best people in the world, but they started out good and became corrupt that means there is always a chance to reform them. If Crichton could cause that much trouble imagine what a few million of us could do.

As for export, I think that alcohol would be a major export. I mean what are the two things that humans do the most. We kill each other and we drink.

[Morgan]

I've had a rethink.

The Scarrans rape and impregnate subject females. Whilst Grayza did not impregnate Crichton, she did rape him, and was not disciplined for that. IE PK Command had no objections to her treatment of prisoners, we can safely assume this treatment is sanctioned.

The thought that the Sebaceans might want to interbreed with us to get rid of their heat delirium does not endear me to them. Would we have a chioice? I somehow dont think so.

The idea that the PK's may not treat us so badly because we look like them does not convince me OR endear me to them. Firstly, the fact that gentiles and Jews look very similar did not cause the Nazi's to treat people of Jewish ancestry with any kindness. Remember Belsen?

Secondly, I remember that Hitler approached the British government many times offering us British an alliance, or later surrender on favourable terms on the grounds that we were Aryans too. But at what price to our own people with a non-Aryan ancestor (which is most of us, btw)?

Will racist Pk's make us wear some sort of badge so that we cant pass for Sebacean? What if the Pk's put someone like Grayza in a position of power over us?

Scarrans, Pk's? Both are extremely undesirable people to have as invaders, whether they invade us openly as the Scarrans do, or the sneaky way as the Peacekeepers do. Are we to be ruled by an Akhna or a Grayza? Better to be dead I think.

Whilst I still think its better to be Tannot root farmers than breeding stock, a big part of me says "Give me liberty or give me death".


I have great respect for Scorpius, but he is sorely misguided as to the nature of the PK's.
It kills me to say this but..... thank you John Crichton.

[Ouroboros]

Just because I loathe your Farscape girlfriend...or whatever, is no reason to be insulting. *feh* Just because some folks get off on being dominated by someone as needy, manipulative, and essentially powerless as Grayza...doesn't mean we all do.
Exposed breasts are a dime a dozen. Woop te frellin' doo. Hers are not even that great. I mean, that's her appeal, isn't it? What else has she got going for her but her outfit and her ability to rape men?

heh heh, yep I don't hate her so that makes her my girlfriend, man I wish things worked that way in real life I'd be a much happier guy. It wasn't me who brought her into a topic about peacekeeper protection just because I noticed her rank in the poll for frells sake. Do I need to avoid using "G's" and "Z's" in the rest of my posts as well to prevent them turning into Grayza flame fests.

It just amuses me how you can harbor such bitter hatred for a fictional character that the most miniscule suggestion of her possible presence in a theoretical scenario is enough to set you off flaming like a torch.

The reason Scorpius stuck the coolant rod fragments into Grayza's eyes was because that was the only place on her body vulnerable enough for him to be able to kill her.

See little freudian slips like this aren't helping you LMAO. I sure don't remember THAT scene. I got to say though she looks pretty good for someone who got their eyes poked out, though I admit I didn't know she had bullet proof skin. Could this perhaps be the explanation for her odd colouring?

On the topic of the .50 VS the Scarran skin. Their skin is still flexible, it would have to be in order for them to retain any sort of range of motion. Because it is flexible it will give even if it doesn’t break, it's not like a tank plate in other words. Because it has give it will be possible to impact it and damage bones and muscle tissue beneath. Weapons of choice against a Scarran would be heavy round firearms like shotguns firing solid slugs, anti material rifles or sledgehammers/maces for close combat. You may not be able to break their skin but you should be able to pulverize something under it.

One thing I do not get at all is A. what happened to bioloid Grayza, and was one made? and B. What the frell was Grayza doing with a CC, that deep in Scarran space, at their top secret flower- growing, Emperor-hosting base? and C. What Central Command-sanctioned authority did she have *if any*, to make a treaty with the Scarrans?

The question of the bioloid has always interested me. It's possible the Grayza and Braca we saw after BHTB were not the real ones at all. This might have been revealed in season 5 who knows. One possible argument against the creation of the bioloid Grayza and Braca is that they were not held as long as Aeryn was. Perhaps Bioloid creation takes time and there was insufficient time available for Aknah to clone the two peacekeepers before Aeryn rescued them.

Also IMO Aknah came to that meeting intending to abduct the two of them. She even had Penoch ready to act with just a single word, this speaks to premeditation. Aknah was fed up with the peacekeeper threats and wanted to find out for herself just how many wormhole weapons they had.

Ricky Manning laughed in disbelief when we told him some guy on #Farscape was going on about how "Crichton wasn't raped."
According to Manning-- the executive producer of the show and a writer for Farscape-- Crichton *Was* raped by Grayza. Sexually. Forced sexual intercourse. Raped. He said so in no uncertain terms, and was surprised anyone saw it otherwise.

WWL was written by a man named Justin Monjo not Ricky Manning, also I don't know how the question was phrased to him or how he answered it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I prefer to work from evidence not opinion and there is no canon evidence for sexual intercourse. When we get into games of he said she said then it just muddles the issue into a contest of who can make the best appeal to authority.

I expect you’re also aware that Wayne Pygram apparently said Scorpius genocided galaxies full of Scarrans at some convention. There is no direct evidence for this in the show however so I don’t incorperate it into my Scorpius character analysis.

You could see that she was controlling his body in several scenes, including the one where she asks him if he regrets what they are doing to Scorpius. He looked as if he did, then she exerted more control, and you could see him lose his thoughts to hers.

Ok think about the implications of this. What kind of a useless interrogation tactic is a drug that makes people tell you what you want to hear. Grayza wanted to interrogate Braca to find out if he was still loyal if he was only going to tell her what she wanted to hear due to her overpowering him it would have been a pretty pointless exercise no? Face it ||Scorpius|| the leash game was Braca’s idea.

Skreeth respected by Grayza? As if. She used Skreeth. She didn't even care about her second in command's feelings. She is beyond self deluded if she thinks Braca enjoyed being humilliated, raped, abused, and used by her.

So now you're using my same metaphorical definition of rape you just tried to shoot down to argue that she raped Braca....oh boy.

Ok I said I had evidence against the literal interpretation of rape so I'll present it now.

- We weren't shown it: Farscape has shown us sexual acts before and yet this time we were not shown even a "shot through some foggy veils" or something. It seems to me if this was going to be such a significant event they would have tried to make more out of it. It also would have been far Scarier had they run some sort of "drug induced delusion" sort of effect depicting what Crichton was seeing and hearing. It needn’t show any nudity since this a show for everyone.

-Crichton had plenty of other things to be upset about: You are John Crichton you have just risked your life and the lives of your friends infiltrating and destroying the command carrier of your most hated and ruthless enemy. You think that finally, it's over, finally Scorpius is dead the wormhole project is sacked and you can get some peace. You go down to this planet and are confronted by more Peacekeepers and guess what they want to talk about. It was all for nothing and you're back at square one. This is what destroyed JC's spirit, he felt the futility of his situation and the realization that he may never have peace. No matter how many PK's he eludes or defeats there's always another one waiting to make his life hell. This time he doesn’t even have Aeryn anymore.

-He didn't hate her enough for it to have been a "real" rape. Crichton finally got a chance to do something to her when he used the lacquer and later when he saw her again and what did he do. Did he try to shoot her, did he smack her, did he fly off into a rage at how she'd violated him, no. Rape victims tend to hate the rapist more than anything and I don't think there's any grief counselors in the uncharteds. If you want to see a realistic depiction of a male reaction to a rape watch the film "Deliverance". What Grayza did to Crichton was evil and I would call it rape in a metaphorical sense but I do not think it involved forced sexual intercourse.

-Braca's interrogation was very similar in principle to Crichton's with the exception that it was shorter, less detailed, and we got to see the entire thing uninterrupted. Grayza was sitting in a bathtub in an effort to distract him with her own barely concealed nudity as she was wearing a sheet during the Crichton interrogation. She then drugged him and began to ask him questions allowing him to play with her hand while she did so. In my opinion Grayza's oil weakens a person’s resistance to things and increases their suggestibility, similar to certain interrogation drugs we have now whose names escape me at the moment. Grayza teases her victims with the prospect of sex in order to make them more likely to want to please her to earn their pay off. They please her by telling her things and she rewards them with further teases like when she bit Crichton's finger. We saw however than once Braca had told her what she wanted to know she pushed him away like someone might do a dog that was humping their leg. She had no intention of "paying the piper" so to speak.

-Why would it be necessary, it also counter productive? This is probably the best argument against sexual intercourse it is a two fold one. Why would it be necessary for her to resort to this when she has them as putty in her hands and why would you want to overly distract someone with sex when you want to get them to talk to you. The first point is pretty self explanatory but I will elaborate a bit on the second. If you want to get someone to give you detailed information on how to create a wormhole it's probably not a good idea to "occupy" their attention to this extent. A little bit of distraction is good as it will make them more malleable but this level of distraction is likely to make them insensible. Also afterward they will be less likely to respond to your questions as the teases will be significantly less effective on them once they've been satisfied.


In my opinion Grayza's encounters most often work as depicted on Braca in Terra Firma. Granted it's not clear if Heppel oil was employed against Braca but in any case the effects were similar. After Grayza was done with him he got some BS ego story that made him feel like he's scored instead of being played. This is also in my opinion likely what happened to Ralcheck. Grayza can't just run around raping people in the PK ranks for information/advancement. If these victims recalled and reacted as you claim Crichton did, to the rape and not something else, she would be locked up and stripped of position in very short order. Also most rational people don't tend to greet their former rapists be saying they're "honored" to have been remembered.

Also see.

**rape1 P Pronunciation Key (rp)
n.

1-The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2-The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3-Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.**

Taken from www.dictionary.com 2 out of 3 definitions agree with me.


couldn't you guys just agree that you disagree about who the bigger bastard is and move on?

I intend to, it was not my intention to see this thread hijacked, I had claimed evidence however so I felt obligated to present some of it.

[Ouroboros]

Now getting back to the point.

Where did the 30,000 years come from? I only remember the quote of the peace being maintained 12,000 cycles ago. There was also the 500 generations thing, but it was unclear as to if this was before or after the 12,000 years.

The quote was "Twelve thousand cycles ago, Arnesskan priests worshipped. Mystics. Somehow they maintained a truce with the Scarrans and the Peacekeepers for five hundred generations. "

If we assume a generation is only 25 years and then add 12,000 we end up with a conservative estimate of an empire aged 24,500 years. I just rounded up to 30k to reflect the fact that the PK and Scarrans would have to have been up there for a while before it became necessary to keep the peace between them. As well as the fact that most people think of a generation as more than 25 years.

It also goes without saying that the priests couldn't have been "maintaining" any truces if they weren't there to do it.

Lets look at our oldest civilizations on the Earth. By the above argument the oldest civilizations on the Earth should be the most technologically advanced.

The PKs have "endured" as a space born race for that long, there's a difference. Also considering how much time they've had their tech isn't overly impressive. We might be able to catch up to them in tech in half the time but we won't be catching up in population or size of empire quite as fast.

It wasn’t a lack of knowledge it was a lack of imagination and the PK’s method of operation is completely geared toward lack of imagination. Did you ever wonder why there were virtually no Sebaceans designing on any of the really experimental stuff?

They've made recent advances, the leviathan gunship project for example as was the much troubled wormhole project as well as "new model" pulse weapons that functioned in that disruptive field in different destinations. Even if they aren't making the advances themselves and are employing aliens to do it they still reap the benefits so it's not really important who does the work. it's also possible they've reached the limits of optimizing their current style of technology and can't really go any further without taking off in wild directions like living ships and wormhole weapons.

Therefore, while the technological edge is definitely there it is not insurmountable. I mean look at how short of a time it took for us humans to develop most of our truly insidious weapons. WWII ring a bell.

A lot of the stuff depicted in Farscape isn't even possible using current theories on physics. If this stuff is indeed possible we're going to have to completely re-invent much of our scientific understanding in order to do it.

The ‘gift’ of technology is a double-edged sword. The ‘gift’ of technology from one culture to the next on Earth has led to some of our worst problems. The ancients are a very wise race. They knew that only technology discovered through ones own efforts would be less likely to be abused. Look at some of our worst areas in terms of overpopulation. The ‘gift’ of advanced medicines led to many of the afflictions in these areas. It might sound cold to say that we shouldn’t give these people medicine, but without the time it took for these societies to develop these medicines themselves they didn’t have time to adjust their societal structure to accommodate the changes. A family that need to have ten children so that four might grow to adulthood now might have nine of the ten grow to adulthood virtually overnight.

For the most part I agree but I also think there is a lot of good things to be said for technology transfer. In this Scenario we need it to get caught up and be able to defend ourselves, any negative effects it might have we'll just have to deal with.

Ah, the problem that we in the US are dealing with. How much freedom are we willing to sacrifice for safety? I don’t have an answer for this one. It is a spectrum that has good and bad to both sides. I personally could use a little less freedom and a little more safety, but the catch is getting the loss of a few freedoms today from turning into a loss of all freedoms tomorrow.

I agree here too, both about being willing to give up a few freedoms and the trap it creates.

This is one of the things that I hardly ever hear mentioned. It is clear, to me at least, that in WWL there was a very strong link drawn for the relation of humans, sabaceans, and interons. It is most likely, in my mind, that we are all offshoots of a much older race.

something I always wanted to hear more about.

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that all of the, supposed, physical advantages of Sebaceans to humans are natural. Here is what I see. You have a race of beings that have advanced technology, at least a very decent grasp of genetics, and a penchant for war. How little gene tampering would it take to make a Sebacean have a little better eyesight? I read an article about a month ago in which scientist were experimenting with injecting alternate wavelength sensitive cells into eyes. The long reaching consequence of this research is that humans could be made sensitive to both ultraviolet and infrared light. Thus adding several new colors to our perception and allowing us to see things that we cannot now. So a little super soldiering a couple of hundred generations ago and now Sebaceans have very good eyesight that has nothing to do with evolution, but is also considered a natural ability of all.

Interesting and very likely especially considering their community approach to breeding and child rearing.

The Goths were only one small group of people when they entered the incredibly large empire of Rome, but they ended up running the whole thing. Even as they were absorbed.

We would need to depend on them to spread our culture around for us though as we have no ships of our own to do it with.

As stupid as you might think us. We have not been fighting wars since before the beginning of history without learning something about doing it well. I.E. don’t use an ICBM. Nucs can be mounted on a lot of other things.

Even if you stick a nuke on a Saturn 5 rocket I'm still skeptical as to whether or not you'll be able to hit a relatively small moving target like a starship. Space is a very big place and you can't just go flying around until you find something, there's not enough fuel for this.

First, you underestimate the power of the nucs. John’s even wussier fission bomb, weaker than fussion, did a good enough job on Katratzi. Also, you assume that since they are capable of destroying a planet, and I think this means destroy all life not blow up as in Death Star, that this means that their ships are capable of withstanding the same forces. American nuclear submarines have enough firepower to level a country, but they couldn’t even come close to withstanding a blast from even a small nuclear device. Firepower doesn’t necessarily translate to damage absorbing abilities. Firepower also doesn’t necessarily translate to what would happen in ship to ship combat. Again with the submarine example. Let say that two nuclear subs, both carrying enough firepower to destroy a country, are fighting each other. Do they fight each other with their nucs? No they fight each other with torpedoes of other weapons. There most powerful weapons are not used against other ships. Therefore, I think that nuclear weapons would be a decent weapon to use against the Scarrans, but I also don’t think it would allow us to win.

John's bomb was created with alien tech not Earth tech. FYI the biggest nuclear bomb ever tested was Tsar bomba which had a yield of just over 50 megatons. You could easily be right about the CC weapons however. It was never shown whether or not Grayza intended to bombard the planet with the ship's cannons or if CCs have some other sort of special planet killing weapon we never saw used. I’d agree that the latter is more likely though I just wish we could have seen it used. The PKs are likely the have superior power generation capabilities however as evidenced by the performance of John's pulse pistol in Terra firma and the fact that they can create starships capable of accelerating to FTL velocities. As for material strength in addition to landing on planets and thus withstanding re-entry stresses the Zalbinion survived for I think it was 300 cycles in an asteroid belt with no active shields or defense systems. Sure it was pretty messed up but it's unclear how much of this damage was caused in the battle that destroyed her. In any case after 300 years of asteroid bombardment her condition was remarkable.

Different weapons interact with different materials in different ways. Just because a pulse pistol can ‘vape’ a target dummy and a bullet can’t doesn’t mean that a bullet might not be more dangerous to a Scarran than a pulse pistol. As for the 9mm it isn’t designed to pierce armor. If you want another example consider ‘I Shrink Therefore I Am’. In that episode John’s pulse pistol and the DRD’s lasers had no effect on the Coreeshi, but his ‘bear trap’ sure did the job quickly and efficiently. The bear trap is the same principle as a bullet a lot of momentum applied to a small area.

I agree here about damage types as well and theorized that Scarran skin might get most of its resistance to pulse weapons from simply being very heat resistant. I also suggested a.50 ant material rifle to test their mettle, I can't say I see a Scarran living through this. If he does, time to break out the LAW.:aok:

[Moyas_Ghost]

Well, this thread has gone really veered off from where I last saw it. But getting back to the choice between Scarrens and PK's, I would like to open some debate.

What evidence to we have that Scarrens are the genocidal destructive force they are accused of being?

I was looking for some "evidence" given by |Scorpius|, but it must have been in another thread. All of it was PK in origin as I recall. That has to be taken with a grain of salt. I place this as analagous to the USA/USSR cold war standoff. In trying to gain allies, each side way, way overstated the evils of the other side. We need direct evidence of planet destruction/genocide from someone other than PK's.

In the WSS 3 parter, I didn't see any evidence that the Scarrens sadistically abused the Charrids or Interons. I'm not accusing them of being nice guys, they appear to be harsh masters. But they can absorb alien races into their empire for specific uses instead of simply wiping them out. Of course, we may not have a use.

Finally, on the raping and forced breeding experiments. I really need to rewatch Incubator. I don't have my own copy. But, at the end of Prayer, Areyn asks the other woman if she has ever been pregnant and she says no. So, all of the forced breeding comments in Prayer could have been (dare I say it?) just scare tactics. What firm evidence of rape/forced breeding do we have other than Scorpius? Just the one example could point to one Scarren madman versus an officially sanctioned government program.

On the other side, what evidence do we have that PK High Command really values Scorpius? Sure they are willing to use him and his knowledge of Scarrens, but the way he is treated including the subordinate who chose Grayza over him tells me that he is not really respected by the PK hierarchy.

And I agree with everything |Scorpius| suggested about Scorpius being the agent keeping Scarrens in check the last 20 cycles or so. But, I think he is doing most of it himself due to his view of the Scarren menace. At this point, I don't see him as being completely accepted by High Command such that they would allow him to set strategic policy.

Considering that, I believe Scorpius to be an honorable man within his own definitions and views. If he told John he would pursue a treaty for Earth, I believe in his intention. I don't believe in his direct influence with PK High Command. Therefore, the deal we received might be far different from the one Scorpius offered.

I'm almost ready to rethink myself and side with Morgan. No deals, no way. John done good.

[Anni D]

I would've given Scorpy the finger, told him to keep it warm and then dissapeared down the rabbit hole to Earth and given them all the Technology I could remember, just in case!

[theplaidsheep]

What Grayza did to Crichton was evil and I would call it rape in a metaphorical sense but I do not think it involved forced sexual intercourse.
________________________________________

Ah, right, I see....so the fact that she took without permission, that she drugged him beyond capability to fight back or resist, you don't call that rape?? Please, I would really like to hear your opinion on what classes as rape, and what exactly must happen for it to be classed as metaphorical. Rape, is rape is rape, there is no inbetween, there is no lesser form and saying so just belittles every victim there ever has been. Just because he wasn't physically or mentally invaded doesn't make it any less valid, and as any decent, feeling person could see John Crichton definitely suffered in the aftermath... or did you miss that scene in La Bomba where he said 'you raped me'?

[SueDonym]

Okay. I actually feel that this needs to be discussed too, because like many others, it's difficult for me to understand why people don't think Crichton was raped.

But I'm opening a new forum for that, so that the Mods don't have to come and visit. :-)

[taechunsa]

This is fun. I have missed having an intellectual conversation with someone just for the fun of having it.

** Ouroboros

>If we assume a generation is only 25 years and then add 12,000 we end up with a
>conservative estimate of an empire aged 24,500 years. I just rounded up to 30k to reflect
>the fact that the PK and Scarrans would have to have been up there for a while before it
>became necessary to keep the peace between them. As well as the fact that most people
>think of a generation as more than 25 years.

This makes sense.

>The PKs have "endured" as a space born race for that long, there's a difference. Also
>considering how much time they've had their tech isn't overly impressive. We might be
>able to catch up to them in tech in half the time but we won't be catching up in
>population or size of empire quite as fast.

I am not sure that I do see the difference between the PK civilization and the ancient civilizations of the Earth. I do completely agree with the unimpressiveness of the PK tech. For a civilization that has been around for 30,000 or more years, they aren’t that advanced, and that is my point. They aren’t very creative. While their technology does advance, I think that it does so at a much, much slower pace than ours. As for population, I am not really sure how many PK there really are. We do know this much. There are ten times as many Scarrans as there are PK.

>A lot of the stuff depicted in Farscape isn't even possible using current theories on
>physics. If this stuff is indeed possible we're going to have to completely re-invent much
>of our scientific understanding in order to do it.

We have done it before. Nuclear bombs weren’t theoretically possible before Einstein and others of that era. However, within a decade of the new science we had made one hell of a weapon.

>For the most part I agree but I also think there is a lot of good things to be said for
>technology transfer. In this Scenario we need it to get caught up and be able to defend
>ourselves, any negative effects it might have we'll just have to deal with.

We would have to do what we must to survive. Throughout history groups of humans have accepted subjugation to insure their future survival. This later allowed them to throw off their repression and prosper once again. ‘Give me liberty or give me death’ is great for a revolution that has a chance in hell of working. It is suicide in the face of overwhelming odds. As Harvey once said to John in reference to Aeryn, “Gamble with her life if you want…” I for one wouldn’t gamble with my Aeryn’s life. Better the PK who might treat her as an inferior, than the Scarran who would treat her as breeding stock.

>>This is one of the things that I hardly ever hear mentioned. It is clear, to me at least,
>>that in WWL there was a very strong link drawn for the relation of humans, sabaceans,
>>and interons. It is most likely, in my mind, that we are all offshoots of a much older
>>race.
>
>something I always wanted to hear more about.

Me too. Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss it.

>Even if you stick a nuke on a Saturn 5 rocket I'm still skeptical as to whether or not
>you'll be able to hit a relatively small moving target like a starship. Space is a very big
>place and you can't just go flying around until you find something, there's not enough
>fuel for this.

Most of the time we can hit a relatively small area of space on a small celestial object with probes. Why couldn’t we hit a relatively large chunk of metal floating close to the Earth. If nothing else stick a really strong magnet on the dang thing and all that you have to do is get it close. I also find it interesting that you mention the Saturn 5 rocket. Did you know that if we wanted to build one tomorrow that we couldn’t? Not that we don’t have the technology to recreate it, but that the plans have been lost. In a few short decades we managed to lose the plans to the largest rocket we ever designed. How many plans do you think the PK have lost in 30,000 years? Just another example of technology not always increasing with time.

>John's bomb was created with alien tech not Earth tech. FYI the biggest nuclear bomb
>ever tested was Tsar bomba which had a yield of just over 50 megatons. You could
>easily be right about the CC weapons however. It was never shown whether or not
>Grayza intended to bombard the planet with the ship's cannons or if CCs have some
>other sort of special planet killing weapon we never saw used. I’d agree that the latter is
>more likely though I just wish we could have seen it used. The PKs are likely the have
>superior power generation capabilities however as evidenced by the performance of
>John's pulse pistol in Terra firma and the fact that they can create starships capable of
>accelerating to FTL velocities. As for material strength in addition to landing on planets
>and thus withstanding re-entry stresses the Zalbinion survived for I think it was 300
>cycles in an asteroid belt with no active shields or defense systems. Sure it was pretty
>messed up but it's unclear how much of this damage was caused in the battle that
>destroyed her. In any case after 300 years of asteroid bombardment her condition was
>remarkable.

The Zelbinion was missing for over 100 cycles, but it had to be less than 130 cycles since Rygel was on it. I would love to see some more about the weapons of the PK and Scarrans. And as for the power source of the PK it is the Tanot root. Interesting how both the Scarrans and the PK societies are completely dependent upon one biological item. Destroy the Bird of Paradise and the Scarrans become stupid. Destroy the tanot root and the PK lose a great portion of their weapons.

I don’t remember where it was ever shown that a CC could land. Where was this mentioned?

Here is a little tidbit for you. The writers didn’t bone up on their nuclear bomb terms. In the beginning of the episode John refers to the bomb as being a thermonuclear bomb, which is also what he describes its design as. However, the Emperor refers to it as a fission bomb. Ooops! The difference is fission versus fusion. Atomic bombs, fission, are powerful. Thermonuclear, hydrogen or fusion, bombs can be more so. John’s bomb is a fusion bomb. So ignore my earlier comment about John’s bomb being fission. I just need to learn that you can’t trust a Scarren. I guess this is another reason to side with the PK. I mean who wants to be ruled by someone who doesn’t even know the difference between fission and fusion. Advanced race my eema.

Now about John’s bomb and the effectiveness of nucs against the Scarran or PK. The Tsar bomba was the largest nuc ever tested. It was a 50-megaton yield and weighed 27 tons. The fuel for the third stage alone weighed two tons. So here is where the use of alien versus human tech breaks down. First, lets assume that the UT has the same physical laws as us. In other words their hydrogen has the same atomic mass and quantum properties as our hydrogen. The yield of a thermonuclear bomb is determined by the amount of fuel its various stages hold. So either the crew of Moya had a way to make matter weigh less or John’s bomb only held a very small fraction of what the Tsar Bomba held. Now, in depth discussions of nuclear explosions and thermal propagation aside, John’s bomb did a number on Katratzi. So assuming that the alien tech made the bombs trigger mechanism lighter the yield is still determined by the weight of the fuel. Therefore, John’s bomb was far from our strongest. Which means that if we could deliver it. A nuc would be quit effective in my opinion.

Also of note. The Tsar Bomba was designed as a 100-megaton bomb. They left out half of the fuel.

As for the asteroids and the Zalbinion. That is a good example, but there a lot of other factors that come into play with a nuc. It isn’t just kinetic energy being transferred. The Tsar Bomba was so hot that it was said, "The same goes for rocks. The snow has melted and their sides and edges are shiny. There is not a trace of unevenness in the ground.... Everything in this area has been swept clean, scoured, melted and blown away." If it can melt rock like that from 4000 meters away imagine what it could do to metal at pointblank range.

>I agree here about damage types as well and theorized that Scarran skin might get most
>of its resistance to pulse weapons from simply being very heat resistant. I also suggested
>a.50 ant material rifle to test their mettle, I can't say I see a Scarran living through this.
>If he does, time to break out the LAW.

LOL! That would at least light them up.

**Moyas_Ghost

>What evidence to we have that Scarrens are the genocidal destructive force they are
>accused of being?
>
>I was looking for some "evidence" given by |Scorpius|, but it must have been in another
>thread. All of it was PK in origin as I recall. That has to be taken with a grain of salt. I
>place this as analagous to the USA/USSR cold war standoff. In trying to gain allies,
>each side way, way overstated the evils of the other side. We need direct evidence of
>planet destruction/genocide from someone other than PK's.?

The same evidence that we have that the PK are as bad as they are accused of being. A few examples and tales from people that don’t like them, as well as the actions of a few individuals, usually high officials ordering underlings to do their dirty work. The evidence that you are looking for is most likely not going to be found. However, if we look at ‘Unrealized Reality’ it is shown that the Scarrans would not destroy us they would crossbreed with us. So perhaps you are correct. Perhaps the Scarrans wouldn’t destroy us they would simply lock control bracelets on us and force us to breed with them despite the fact that it would kill most of our women and their children. Well isn’t that a lot better.

>Finally, on the raping and forced breeding experiments. I really need to rewatch
>Incubator. I don't have my own copy. But, at the end of Prayer, Areyn asks the other
>woman if she has ever been pregnant and she says no. So, all of the forced breeding
>comments in Prayer could have been (dare I say it?) just scare tactics. What firm
>evidence of rape/forced breeding do we have other than Scorpius? Just the one example
>could point to one Scarren madman versus an officially sanctioned government program.

There is also the ‘Unrealized Reality’ in which the Scarrans had conquered the Earth. Unless you think that humans willingly procreated with the Scarrans.

>I'm almost ready to rethink myself and side with Morgan. No deals, no way. John done
>good.

I, on the other hand, think that when push comes to shove we would be destroyed, either literally or through absorption by a species radically different enough that we would no longer be able to consider ourselves human if we didn’t side with the PK against the Scarrans. At least if we are absorbed by the PK there is that ancient link between humans and Sebaceans which unites us already.

Besides, what real proof do we have that the PK are as bad as they are made out to be? Some of our most beloved protagonists were once PK. Aeryn, Bialar, Gilina, Scorpious, and even Braca were or are all PK and they have all done the right thing when the times demanded it. To me this gives them a hell of a lot better character reference than the Scarrans.

Looking forward to some more replies.

PS. Where can I learn how to do the neat quote thing?

[Frunium Slip]

Originally posted by taechunsa
This is fun. I have missed having an intellectual conversation with someone just for the fun of having it.

Looking forward to some more replies.

PS. Where can I learn how to do the neat quote thing?

If you are talking about the above in this post (excerpted from your previous post with just a little editing) the go to the post you would like to 'quote' from, and click on the quote tab in the lower right hand corner. For multiple quotes, you might have to copy into a word processor ie Word and pay atttention to the lead in and follow up characters.

There are special characters for italics, bold, quote, and size. Experiment with the tabs at the top when writing posts, and check how they appear.

Hope this helps some.

Edited for my imperfect typing. The imperfection is yours.

[Farscapegoat]

I do't know how the PKs would feel about humans. There are cases where certain PKs seem accepting but they might not represent the majority. The fact that we look like them may work against us. A lot of white racists especially in the past preferred blacks to be very dark to make sure you could tell. Then again Xenophobia may be lesser for PKs after all this time around other species and even alliances with other races.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned something that somehow came to me rather quickly in the Sebaccian skin color issue. All of us know that heat and sebaccians do not mix. Darker skin color (On Earth) originates in warmer places in general. I'm not surprised that there are very few sebaccians of color. They are geneticly made for relatively cool places so therefore there would probably be a lot less people with a skin color originating from warm or hot places in that species. I think PKs at least are not as much racist as speciest. (I hope that's a word)