Peackeepers, the good, the bad and the ugly.

[Ouroboros]

Coming to you live by request from the uncharted territories, this thread.

Ok this thread is going to be about examining the nature of the Peacekeepers themselves and as a side note how they compare to their arch enemies the Scarrans. This thread was born from the John Crichton good person thread and my post there in. Which is quoted below as it originally appeared.


Ok just something regarding the Peacekeepers and genocide. What proof do we have that the general Peacekeeper leadership and not just Scorpius has any such intention toward the Scarrans or any other species for that matter. Hell there is even a very vocal opinion that even Scorpius does not intend genocide. The Peacekeepers were allied with the Luxons and an obviously powerful faction within their government was even attempting to negotiate a peace with the Scarrans, misguided as that attempt was. Grayza also seemed more interested in using the threat of wormhole tech as a deterrent to war. To use the threat of "the bomb" to create a sort of cold war stalemate. I've never seen anything in the show to suggest that the Peacekeepers would be genocidal for the sheer fun of it if they got wormhole technology. They're already vastly more powerful than many of the various small alien cultures around them. If they were genocidal why are these cultures still around, many of them a mere few weeks away in and helpless agaisnt a command carrier which can destroy planets. Why would the leader of Delvia attempt to negotiate an alliance to stay in power with an alien government who had a history of genociding aliens for no reason? The Peacekeepers are much more into oppression and annexation than they are into genocide I'd say. Even with wormhole tech the amount of harm this doctrine could do would be limited. They only have so many ships and men it's not like they're going to go out and annex the entire universe for no reason. It doesn't work that way. Cultures don't seize territory for nothing, they do so becasue they stand to gain something. Spreading themselves all over the universe would just be a massive waste of resources and likely doom them Roman style. Sure they might expand into key locations that the felt would give a good resource or strategic return but I'll take that over "all weak species must die at the feet of the mighty Scarran Empire" any day. Even if they don't get the wormhole tech they're already moving right into everyone's backyard. Would it suck to live under Pk rule so much? Sure it’s a big step down from freedom but it’s a lot better than death or “breeding stock”. Remember the tannot root factory planet from TGIFA. It’s been a long while since I’ve seen that ep but I don’t remember a single Peacekeeper there beating down the locals and "keeping order" through brutality. Tannot root is one of their most valuable resources.

[Darth Buddha]

O.K. I second the belief that there is NO evidence that they'd commit genocide.

That said, they are into, among other things...

Enslaving worlds wholesale in fashions that will lead to their demise (Thank God It's Friday, Again). The tanot root was a form of chemical mind control... so they didn't need to be there to be overseers. I don't think that lessens the degree of the crime.

Using slave labor in near death camps (Premeire, where Dargo mentions he worked in such a slave mine and Zhaan indicates that nearly nobody survives).

Torture for torture's sake (Premeire, PK Tech Girl, Durka Returns, The Way We Weren't) where it really isn't for information's sake.

Racial purity, to the point of killing halfbreeds ('cept Scorpy, somehow) as mentioned in "They've Got a Secret" and "Liars, Guns, and Money".

Opposition to the family unit in favor of the state, as spoken of by Aeryn, Velorek, Xhalax, and Crais.

And so on...

But since you drew the Scarrens into it... in the Unrealized Reality where the Scarrens had gotten to earth, apparently they hadn't exterminated humans, just hybridized them. John was still there. John's dad (Wayne Pygram as John's dad ... cool) was still there.

So while the Scarrens regard the PK's as worthy of extinction, they would apparently find humans acceptable once "hybridized' to become members of the Scarren race. Interesting way of populating the universe with your kind. Kinda sick.... but we don't know what standing these folks have. The alternate John & Dad SEEMED better off than the slave races/worlds of the PK's, but that is really pushing the limits...

But the Scarrens exterminate what they cannot hybridize or graft into their societies. Let's face it, the only reason humans would survive and PK's wouldn't under Scarren occupation is the fact that their hybrids don't have the heat problems that a Sebacean/Scarren hybrid has... so the Scarrens would probably exterminate a lot of other species too... while the PK's probably would not.

So the PK's are less scary than the Scarrens.

What else can we point out in MODEL PK's that is admirable... good... or at least that we can live with.

I don't think Braca isn't ALL bad, y'know.... but I think others can probably do a better job of pointing out his strong points and good command qualities than I can.

[Darth Buddha]

And I forgot Ouroboros's favorite.. Grayza.

If Scorpy gets benefit of the doubt for not having complete info on how dangerous it is for the PK's to get wormholes.... then Grayza can get credit for actions that were ethical BASED ON THE BEST KNOWLEDGE SHE HAS AVAILABLE!

She scares me more than Scorpy, but only because I think she's outta her league...

[Ouroboros]

Well it looks like we just about agree on our outlooks of the Peacekeepers. I'm not out to throw observed evidence out the window in an attempt to propagandize for them but the claim of genocide’s and imminent wormhole genocide’s was one I'd heard before and I was curious as to what evidence it was based on. Like I said before I'd take them over the Scarrans but really only because they're the lesser of the two evils. They also seem more generally disinterested in the people they conquer once they've conquered them, moving on to other things as opposed to setting up hybridizing/breeding programs and the like.

What else can we point out in MODEL PK's that is admirable... good... or at least that we can live with.

We might want to look at incubator for this and the Captain who recruited Scorpius. I watched the ep again a few days ago and I'd forgotten how almost freakishly nice for a PK this guy was. At the very least he proves that not everyone in their command ranks is a Salto Durka. We've also got the lower enders like Gilena and to a lesser extent Henta who, while indoctrinated in the latter case, didn't seem to be unreasonably cruel or sadistic just for the sake of it. Maybe John just attracts the "best" in the Sebacean race.

I don't think Braca isn't ALL bad, y'know.... but I think others can probably do a better job of pointing out his strong points and good command qualities than I can.

Won't be me doing it. I like Braca as a character but as an officer and a man I don't really care for the guy too much.

If Scorpy gets benefit of the doubt for not having complete info on how dangerous it is for the PK's to get wormholes.... then Grayza can get credit for actions that were ethical BASED ON THE BEST KNOWLEDGE SHE HAS AVAILABLE!

Whoa, that may have been the first time those words were ever uttered online by someone other than me. Hmm objectivity in reviewing character behavior........ Nah it'll never take. ;)

[Darth Buddha]

Yeah... and that Captain was going out on a limb for a half-breed in a racial purity obsessed order. That's a BIG deal. That guy is a frelling "humanitarian", he is!

Which actually brings me to the PK's racial purity ethic... do you think it is coincidental that the PK's are obsessed with racial purity, while the Scarrens seem to be obsessed with racial hybridization?

Could the racial purity thing, in reality, be a propaganda effort to make the Scarrens seems as scary and as repellant as possible (i.e., make the thought of capture/rule by the Scarrens is WORSE THAN DEATH).

[GARNET]

It always seem to me that the PK were not alone for they dislike of hybird. And it might scare them all the more that the Scarrans are so big believe in it. I remember D'Argo's family was not happier about him marry a Sebaebian then her family was.

[Darth Buddha]

Yep, but their racial purity goes to the point of "irreversible contamination" where your purity is shot even by being AROUND non-approved aliens.

[Ouroboros]

I was actually thinking about racial intolerance and such in the UT and was shocked at how much of it there seems to be, observe.

Sikozu:Weak species
Jool/Interions: Made various racist remarks
Peacekeepers:We all know what they're about
Scarrans:All else must die
Nebari:Everyone else must serve their interests
Charids/Hynerians: One species ate the other! They hate each other as a result.

This sure isn't star trek.

Often times such generalizing attitudes like "Luxons are simple" Scarrans torture" "those frog people are all scavengers" and "Peacekeepers/Sebaceans are fascists" are widespread and seem generally accepted. These types of generalizing stereotypes are typical of racist thinking.

I'm sure I missed a few in my list but I won't drag the thread off topic any further, perhaps a new thread down the road.

Which actually brings me to the PK's racial purity ethic... do you think it is coincidental that the PK's are obsessed with racial purity, while the Scarrens seem to be obsessed with racial hybridization?

The question we have to ask about the opposing philosophies of the Scarrans and PK is. Were these attitudes something that happened in reaction to their hostilities, or were these attitudes what started off their hostilities in the first place? A fundamental difference in outlook like this could very well be what started the hate between the PKs and Scarrans.

Yep, but their racial purity goes to the point of "irreversible contamination" where your purity is shot even by being AROUND non-approved aliens.

This is the inevitable side effect of them wanting to keep their indoctrination intact. If a Peacekeeper spends too much time around aliens and away from the propaganda they’re feeding him when he returns he'll quite likely be able to distinguish the propaganda for what it is and will reject it as false. They don't want people who have the experience to think that clearly spreading their ideas through the ranks.

When you look at the Peacekeeper society it's quite divided in this regard though I’m sure high command won’t appreciate me pointing that out. We have some people that really buy into the whole "party line" like that guy in ItLD that attacked D’argo and then we have other people who seem to completely disregard it. Gilina for example and Scorpy's recruiter. Oh sure they may tow the line on the surface but deep down they know it’s all BS. What do you know it's just like a real civilization, you can't paint them all with one brush.

I'd blame most of the current PK climate on high command, who as you've said might have recently kicked up the xenophobia indoctrination a few levels in order to spurn the younger generations against the Scarrans. I figure they’d be the ones who set policy and make regulations for the other officers to follow/enforce on their subordinates. It's a pity we never got to learn more about high command and what goes on there. Who exactly rules the Peacekeepers? Is it s single figure or some sort or a council? How are these people appointed? Are they dictators?

This information would be very useful in tracking down the source of their xenophobic attitudes. Is there a PK Hitler like figure at the center of it all?

I'd hope for these things in the next season but I doubt they'll get put in. I've always said Farscape's greatest failing is its refusal to open the lens a bit more.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Ouroboros
I was actually thinking about racial intolerance and such in the UT and was shocked at how much of it there seems to be, observe.

Sikozu:Weak species
Jool/Interions: Made various racist remarks
Peacekeepers:We all know what they're about
Scarrans:All else must die
Nebari:Everyone else must serve their interests
Charids/Hynerians: One species ate the other! They hate each other as a result.



Sadly, I see this as a reflection of society. They're not experiencing this cause they're in a bad corner of the galaxy...or universe...just some things don't change from one planet to another, I guess.

[Darth Buddha]

Maybe, but when I walk down American streets, I see a pretty good mixing of the gene pool.

Which I think says something good about this country.

[Eric Satan]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Maybe, but when I walk down American streets, I see a pretty good mixing of the gene pool.

Which I think says something good about this country.


you got nothing on Canada in this catagory ;)

[Darth Buddha]

And that's a good thing!

Yep, thanks for mentioning it, I was remiss for not saying so myself.

Back to the PK uglies... if we presume that everyone else is as hybrid-phobic as they are, and that this is the norm in that part of space (gee, I don't know how *I* feel about the idea of a human-alien hybrid myself!), then they get a pass. We can't knock them.

BUT that not everyone else believes in "Irreversible Contamination" where your purity is compromised just from being exposed, they do have to take the knock there.

[GARNET]

It seems that irreverseible contamination is more of poltical or ideal corruption then physical. It seems to be more corruption of who side are you on thing, your people or this dirt alien. Kind of your disobeying a direct stand order not to take alien side (esp. when you captain wants to kill that alien your standing up for). We don' t know how normal captain would act in the same events happened.

[Darth Buddha]

Hmmm... sounds like the rule, not the exception, though you are very correct to point out that standing up for Crichton probably sealed Aeryn's fate (though, arguably, she might have just wanted to give her captain as accurate an assessment of the situation as possible -- aside from sparing what she perceived as an "innocent" alien).

We have more than one example, though... Crais was deemed irreversibly contaminated by High Command for being among the Moyans for too long. Though his prior history clearly set HIM up for that fall too. I think that was just a convenient way of getting rid of him without a court martial.

But we do have examples of Peacekeepers going out among the "great unwashed" and not worrying about it much.

Xhalax Sun seemed to not have to worry about being irreversibly contaminated. This after she had already given high command a reason NOT to trust her just a few decades before with the visiting her child stunt.

Captain Larraq, from "A Bug's Life" similarly didn't have to worry about these restrictions.

Finally, Scorpius seemed not to have to worry.

So, it boils down to this... Is irreversible contamination something that only grunts need to worry about generally?

[Scaper989]

I don't think Braca isn't ALL bad, y'know.... but I think others can probably do a better job of pointing out his strong points and good command qualities than I can.

Boot licking, eema kissing, coat tail riding...

[GeneralBraca]

Looking at Different Destinations, we see quite a different PK system operating in the past. Although some are still born into service, some (like Sub Officer Deacon) weren't even conscripted... they joined up voluntarily.

The nurses felt that PK's stood for all that was good in the universe. Aeryn even says they're job is to defend the defenseless.

An interesting story would be to find out how the PK's who were really all about keeping the peace morphed into the fascist version we have today.

Also, not every single Sebacean is a PK. There are plenty of civilian colonies, like where Crais was conscripted from. And the colony Scorpius' mother was a part of. I'd be curious to know what civilians Sebaceans think of the PK's. Are they all covered by/governed by the PK's? It seems the only ones who aren't are the Breakaway Colonies from the LATP trilogy.

I imagine there is a civilian government that the PK's work for, but in name only. In practice, PK High Command is really in charge. It was almost certainly not always the case.

Speaking of High Command, I don't think there's probably a single individual in charge... you're probably looking at a small clique at the top. There's probably some sort of executive head of civilian Sebaceans (and technically the military), but with probably no actual power.

With a small clique in charge, it's really almost impossible for anyone to dissent from the party line. Fear of the others in the clique would keep you in line. Any sort of change in PK society would require all the members of the clique agreeing... and they're unlikely to even discuss it with each other because of fear.

Interestingly, even if High Command wanted the PK's to become more open, they might have their own underlings rebel against them because after generations of xenophobic indoctrination, they may not want it any other way.

I agree that the "contamination" thing is probably to keep the population under control. They're talking about mental contamination, not physical (although it sort of spills over into their xenophobia and disgust at interspecies dalliance). Officers who need to operate freely among aliens are able to. Of course, "contamination" could always be used as a political tool against those officers, so they need to be careful.... or indisposable.

[Darth Buddha]

Or, perhaps, from High Command's view, they need to be disposable.

[Judith]

Originally posted by GeneralBraca



An interesting story would be to find out how the PK's who were really all about keeping the peace morphed into the fascist version we have today.



Well, it's also really interesting to see how the Peace Keepers have developed even over the four years of the show. I mean...I got the impression that the PK's...maybe say in Aeryn's lifetime...maybe they weren't necessarily nicer, but they definately had more of a stable system than than they have today (or than they had at the end of season four). I mean, it really seems like...once you get up relatively high in the PK command chain...your job gets pretty unstable. I mean...PK officers get deposed like crazy. I really don't think a system like that can be sustained for very long, so they must not always have been like that.

[Darth Buddha]

Remember the night of the long knives (from history, not literally)?

Being a Nazi has always been dangerous.

But I like the idea of a more noble organization being subverted. It would be interesting. It would be very "human". AND it would provide hope that it could "return" to former moral standing.... if a band of conspirators planted a bomb and the PK version of "Rommel" agreed to head up the new government.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Remember the night of the long knives (from history, not literally)?



Ugh...I'm stupid. Actually, I minored in history, but I focused on Asia. So...who wants to give me a refresher is 20th century European history?

[Darth Buddha]

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/night_of_the_long_knives.htm

The Night of the Long Knives, in June 1934, saw the wiping out of the SA's leadership and others who had angered Hitler in the recent past in Nazi Germany. After this date, the SS lead by Heinrich Himmler was to become far more powerful in Nazi Germany.

For all the power the Enabling Act gave Hitler, he still felt threatened by some in the Nazi Party. He was also worried that the regular army had not given an oath of allegiance. Hitler knew that the army hierarchy held him in disdain as he was 'only ' a corporal in their eyes. The Night of the Long Knives not only removed the SA leaders but also got Hitler the army's oath that he so needed.

By the summer of 1934, the SA's numbers had swollen to 2 million men. They were under the control of Ernst Röhm, a loyal follower of Hitler since the early days of the Nazi Party. The SA had given the Nazi's an iron fist with which to disrupt other political parties meetings before January 1933. The SA was also used to enforce law after Hitler became Chancellor in January 1933. To all intents, they were the enforcers of the Nazi Party and there is no evidence that Röhm was ever planning anything against Hitler.

However, Röhm had made enemies within the Nazi Party - Himmler, Goering and Goebbels were angered by the power he had gained and convinced Hitler that this was a threat to his position.

By June 1934, the regular army hierarchy also saw the SA as a threat to their authority. The SA outnumbered the army by 1934 and Röhm had openly spoken about taking over the regular army by absorbing it into the SA. Such talk alarmed the army's leaders.

By the summer of 1934, Hitler had decided that Röhm was a 'threat' and he made a pact with the army. If Röhm and the other SA leaders were removed, the rank and file SA men would come under the control of the army but the army would have to swear an oath of loyalty to Hitler. The army agreed and Röhm's fate was sealed.

On the night of June 29th - June 30th 1934, units of the SS arrested the leaders of the SA and other political opponents. Men such as Gregor Strasser, von Schleicher and von Bredow were arrested and none of them had any connection with Röhm. The arrests carried on for 2 more nights.

Seventy seven men were executed on charges of treason though historians tend to think the figure is higher. The SA was brought to heel and placed under the command of the army. Hitler received an oath of allegiance from all those who served in the army. Röhm was shot. Others were bludgeoned to death.

The first the public officially knew about the event was on July 13th 1934, when Hitler told the Reichstag that met in the Kroll Opera House, Berlin, that for the duration of the arrests that he and he alone was the judge in Germany and that the SS carried out his orders. From that time on the SS became a feared force in Nazi Germany lead by Heinrich Himmler. The efficiency with which the SS had carried out its orders greatly impressed Hitler and Himmler was to acquire huge power within Nazi Germany.

The Wermacht, which had a rather noble tradition to that point, was subverted by the Nazis. Sounds a little like the Peacekeepers in that regard.... once noble, now subverted.

[Judith]

Ah, thanks. I had the night of long knives confused with "crystal night" or however you spell it in German. And they're really different, so I was confused.

[Darth Buddha]

Yep, Kristallnacht was just a state sponsored and instigated pogrom.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Yep, Kristallnacht was just a state sponsored and instigated pogrom.

"Just"?

Anyway, I have learned something for today, I can shut my brain down now.

[Darth Buddha]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
"Just"?

Yep, "just", as in (sadly) nothing out of the ordinary in the history of the species.

I need to remember that when I'm online nobody can tell when I'm being bitterly ironic. We had the same miscommunication over the second class citizen thing.

However, given their uses of "kissing cousins" in harvesting the tannot root, I'm not sure where the PK's come down on that sort of thing. They WERE dooming all of them to eventually death, but on the other hand, it wasn't quite a slave labor death camp (yet) either. Fine point... probably too fine.

Aeryn (Season 1 Aeryn) had considerable distaste for them, as well as for John insofr as he was human and not Sebacean. All in all, I think the Nazi parallel probably extends there too.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha


However, given their uses of "kissing cousins" in harvesting the tannot root, I'm not sure where the PK's come down on that sort of thing. They WERE dooming all of them to eventually death, but on the other hand, it wasn't quite a slave labor death camp (yet) either. Fine point... probably too fine.

Aeryn (Season 1 Aeryn) had considerable distaste for them, as well as for John insofr as he was human and not Sebacean. All in all, I think the Nazi parallel probably extends there too.

Funny...I just finished watching Thank God It's Friday Again. My boyfriend has never seen season one (except for the best of DVD) and when they had the marathon I taped it so he and I could watch it together. Anyway, I was thinking about this thread too!

[Darth Buddha]

On the other hand, we don't KNOW that PK's would have abandoned them there once the soil was completely toast.

They might have relocated them to another planet... to continue slaving over the tannot.

[AnnieBW]

Yeah, but Braca grew a set of cojones in the end and stood up to Grayza!

I view PKs sort of like the ancient Romans, or to go back further, the Spartans. They're a society that is born and bred for conflict. They've limited their options by having only one way of thinking, and cannot evolve as a society. I'm sure that there are limits for interaction with non-Sebacean races for different classes of PK. A Prowler pilot like Aeryn would be considered contaminated at the level of interaction that, say, Macton Tal was at. Of course, I've always seen Crais declaring Aeryn to be contaminated as punishing her for speaking up for Crichton. The incident was recorded, naturally, and Scorpius used it to discredit Crais. Hoisted on his own petard, so to speak.

As for Scorpius - I think that he was allowed into the PK club simply because of what he brought to the table. Here was a Scarran/Sebacean hybrid with intimate knowledge of the Scarrans and a grudge against them. Not to mention his scientific knowledge and the ability to read infrared heat signatures. Scorpy used the PKs for his revenge, and they used him for intelligence against their enemies.

The Scarrans, OTOH, know that they're nothing without the chrystherium. What began as a horrible experiment on Scorpy's mother has become an institutionalized breeding program. In a way, it's counter-eugenics - creating Scarran hybrids to cull the best genetic material for themselves. I'm wondering if NamTar and Kornata were on their payroll? The Scarrans know that they're the biggest dogs in the yard, but not necessarily the smartest or the nastiest. That's why they subjugate the Kalish and allied with the Charrids.

- Annie

[Darth Buddha]

Racial purity vs. racial integration.

Isn't it strange to think of racial integration as evil?

In most societies we'd consider it to be a sign of tolerance and broad mindedness.

But I do really think that the PK attitudes need to be evaluated against the Scarren version of racial integration. I think it scare the devil out of the Sebaceans... especially since THEY have been deemed not worthy of integration, but only extermination.

The Scarrens, for sure, consider genocide part of THEIR palette of dealing with the lesser races, and a lot more aggressively than the PK's.

The PK's are pretty clearly the lesser of two evils on that mark.

[GeneralBraca]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Well, it's also really interesting to see how the Peace Keepers have developed even over the four years of the show. I mean...I got the impression that the PK's...maybe say in Aeryn's lifetime...maybe they weren't necessarily nicer, but they definately had more of a stable system than than they have today (or than they had at the end of season four). I mean, it really seems like...once you get up relatively high in the PK command chain...your job gets pretty unstable. I mean...PK officers get deposed like crazy. I really don't think a system like that can be sustained for very long, so they must not always have been like that.

I agree, the PKs seem more and more worried and disorganized all the time. (And every leader who chases Moya loses their job!) However, it might just be that this instability has been there from the first episode (and before) but we're just seeing it more often now because of the political situation or because Crichton is dealing with PKs that are higher and higher up the chain.

[Darth Buddha]

I like your view, GeneralBraca... and I hope you don't mind if I try to flesh it out a little.

The PK's may have started out noble.. Sort of U.N. Peacekeepers of that part of tht galaxy.

Over time, they went totalitarian and fascist.

Now, they are degrading because the moral fiber they depended on to cohere (the noble age) is further and further removed from current day.

Eventually, they'll implode... tear themselves apart for a while, a la the night of long knives. Whether they'll move on to nothing (no more PK's), something better, or the Galactice Third Reich meets Galactic Imperial Rome (post Ceasar), is unclear.

Perhaps John has shown up in REALLY interesting times. He has already destabilized the Scarren elite, and it seems like the PK elite are already unstable.

[Judith]

Okay...I'm going to say what I initially thought when I watched the show. Note that these are not necessarily my political beliefs, I don't want to talk about my personal politics in this thread, and please don't flame me.

I had the impression that the PK's were...the rest of the world's views on America. Policing the world. There were a lot of things that gave me that general feeling, but specifically I would point to Aeryn talking to Jool In DWTB.

Spoiler space....season three

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She said...something about how the philosophy of Peacekeepers was to...something about preventing terrorism and something else. Sorry I can't be as specific as I should. At least that's what she said about the non Peacekeeper Peacekeepers that she goes to join...the assassination squad? But that also seems to be the original intent of the Peacekeepers as seen in Different Destinations.

So I always thought that the Peacekeepers were supposed to represent...not necessarily America, but what America COULD become.

But then, because Farscape is never entirely black and white, we get the threat of the Scarrans. Which doesn't excuse a lot of the actions of the Peacekeepers, but at least shows they aren't the baddest bad guys out there.

[Darth Buddha]

My views aren't THAT different, but I see the PK's as the threat of totalitarianism involved with ANY single superpower that imposes peace... whether they are the supposed "Black Helicopters" or very real Blue Helmets of the U.N., or the possible destiny for a single superpower like the U.S.

Remember, there were many who would have cast the Pax Britannica in unflattering terms as well.