PK Homeworld?

[zelbinion]

I was wondering, Has there ever been a mention of where the PK's originated. Does the entire empire now float in space enslaving other worlds, or is there a capital / home world. Maybe the location of High Command.
I don't believe its eve been mentioned in an ep. But they had to come from somewhere.

Possible 4th Season SPOILER



Also, while watching a 4th season ep, The one where their on an archelogical site, Braca mentions landing the command carriar. Did they really expect us to believe the a ship the size and shape of a command carriar would be able to land on a planet???
Of coarse the CGI to make it work would have to be outstanding, but still.......

Any thoughts out there

[talyn3]

I don't think it's mentioned

[Darth Buddha]

I'm betting EARTH.

[Roland]

Same as Buddha! Earth all the way! :aok:

[Roland]

Most of them look so good they have to be Swedish! :D

[Darth Buddha]

Hey, I don't see any resemblence to turnips.

[Roland]

Speak for youe self Pinhead!

[Darth Buddha]

Come to think of it, no resemblence to Pinheads either!

(disappointment)

[Roland]

Mayby they are from the north pole? Santas little helpers... :rollin:

[Judith]

I like how this thread broke down into racial intolerance so quickly.

I'm impressed.

:D

[Roland]

Thank's Judith! We do our best... ;)

[Darth Buddha]

O.K., Judith_Shakespeare, I hope that was a joke...

What racial intolerance? Roland and I are both Northern Europeans.... the same race?

I was having fun, nothing serious. And unless I am very much mistaken, so was Roland.

Besides.. Roland already KNOWS I think he rocks.

[Roland]

I think she was joking Master! Look at the smiley!

[Darth Buddha]

Thanks, missed it before.

Buddha needs his eyes examined... or a new screen... I'm not sure which.

[Roland]

Take the pins out of your eyes! ;)

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
What racial intolerance? Roland and I are both Northern Europeans.... the same race?



I dunno...I have Norwegian heritage...my friend is part Swedish...we have some interesting exchanges.

:D

[Roland]

Swedish!!! YOUR A TURNIP!!! :bowdown: Welcome to the family...

[zelbinion]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
I'm betting EARTH.

OK, so PK's build the pyrmids, PK's go out to conquer the universe, John finds the PK's, PK's come back and claim the pyramids.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Roland
Swedish!!! YOUR A TURNIP!!! :bowdown: Welcome to the family...

I'M not Swedish...I'm Norwegian. I'm a....what's a slur for Norwegian?

Interestingly enough, this same friend is also part Irish, while I'm part Scottish. To make her really mad, I don't even have insult the Irish. I just have insinuate that she might look a little scotch-irish to me.

:D

[Judith]

Originally posted by zelbinion
OK, so PK's build the pyrmids, PK's go out to conquer the universe, John finds the PK's, PK's come back and claim the pyramids.

Dude, that would suck.

They would TOTALLY get the King Tut curse though. So I guess it's okay.

I don't think that Earth is the home planet for the Sabaceans. I just think the show is saying Humans and Sebaceans might be related, and that Sebaceans might have come to earth at some point. So...yeah, they could have built the pyramids. And Stonehenge. And those creepy Easter Island heads.

[talyn3]

maybe their from an unrealized reality. Placed here by the ancients as a cosmic joke.

[Zantar]

Hmm i was thinking is it not possible that the PK's are earth? Im not up on my quantum mechanics but is it possible for two things in the same universe to be the same and not the same? Maybe John jumped into an alternate reality ofearth to start.

[Frankiexq]

pyramids and spaceships are a different show.

they could land on a "parking platform" on a planet. or they went to a really BIG planet.

[fandom]

If Earth was the home planet of the peacekeepers, wouldn't their empire be roughly centered around Earth? Instead it is at sixty years of travel at top speed. Wouldn't Aeryn, and probably the rest, recognize the continents?

So, no I don't think so.

[Darth Buddha]

Oh, I'm not thinking that the PK's are CURRENTLY centered on earth.

I'm thinking they evolved there. Parallel evolution to the point of interbreeding makes no sense. In fact, since humans can breed with Sebaceans, and Sebaceans can breed with Luxans, that makes all three suspect. If Grayza is some sort of Nebari hybrid as some suspect, the we have ANOTHER species that probably has common ancestry.

I'd bet they are all genetically engineered from the same stock, a long time ago, for different environments. Maybe by ancient Scarrens, or maybe by ancient Ancients before they went wormhole permanently. Or maybe by somebody else entirely. But at some point you had Sebacean/Enteron/Humans symbols, culture, etc. all in one place (What Was Lost), at a minimum.

Since we are pretty sure humans evolves here, stands to reason that the original source for that came from earth.

[fandom]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
I'm thinking they evolved there. Parallel evolution to the point of interbreeding makes no sense.

Of course it doesn't, like starburst, farting helium or displacing your center of gravity to walk on walls.

But before Spock disappears in a puff of logic, I think we should pretend it does make sense.

But if you insist of a better explanation and that all these species were engineered by another one you can also say they distributed their creations in different planets, or like they did in the Hitchhiker guide to the galaxy in which it was revealed that Earth was the planet were another culture dropped their nut cases and the neanderthals and the rest were a lucky coincidence.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
I'M not Swedish...I'm Norwegian. I'm a....what's a slur for Norwegian?

Interestingly enough, this same friend is also part Irish, while I'm part Scottish. To make her really mad, I don't even have insult the Irish. I just have insinuate that she might look a little scotch-irish to me.

:D

Norwegians are nice too! *crossing fingers behind back* :D

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha


I'd bet they are all genetically engineered from the same stock, a long time ago, for different environments. Maybe by ancient Scarrens, or maybe by ancient Ancients before they went wormhole permanently. Or maybe by somebody else entirely. But at some point you had Sebacean/Enteron/Humans symbols, culture, etc. all in one place (What Was Lost), at a minimum.



I can take anything they throw at us, as long it isn't that lame Star Trek: TNG explanation on "Why we all look kinda the same".

[Judith]

Originally posted by Roland
Norwegians are nice too! *crossing fingers behind back* :D

Well, now you're just being...a weener. :D

[Darth Buddha]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
I can take anything they throw at us, as long it isn't that lame Star Trek: TNG explanation on "Why we all look kinda the same".

Well, if Rygel is correct that earth should be known for the quality of its manual labor, then maybe somebody figured that out an age ago and decided to use humans as templates for slaves across a wide variety of planets in their sphere of influence. They're gone, but the slaves continued to evolve.

That sounds just a LITTLE too close to SG-1, but lets face it, the slaver scenario wasn't invented by them either, so Ptah (an expletive AND the Egyptian little wizened dwarf god of the universe).

[talyn3]

Maybe PKs have a planet somewhere and just happen to look like humans. That would be weird.

[Roland]

I'm not a scientist but.........the chances of so many races looking so alike and NOT be related should be very slim.

I stand by my opinion that Sebaceans are "future" humans that left Tellus some time in the future and settled in the sector they are now. JC just wormholed is way through time and space to that time and place. If they wen't back to earth through normal space (the 60 year option) I think they would find a dead planet!

:smokin:

[zelbinion]

Interesting idea Roland. But one would think it would have been taught in PK hisory 101.
of coarse, one could ask, aren't all Bi pedal aliens related somehow? I mean, what would be the odds that the most intelligent life form on a planet would have 2 arms, 2 legs, and 1 head. With the exception of about 4 aliens on farscape (none on star trek) everyone else must be related.

[Judith]

Originally posted by zelbinion
Interesting idea Roland. But one would think it would have been taught in PK hisory 101.


Okay, far be for me to speak for Roland, but this is more what I got from his post...I think he's saying that if John went into the future, and the Sebaceans are from earth...or an alternate earth...than they would have left a LONG time ago, and they would have forgotten their origins.

Is that it Roland?

[dzelika]

PK's and earthlings (us) HAVE to be VERY CLOSELY related because if they were significantly different J and A would not be able to conceive a child. Think about it - even though we share 98% of genetic material with chimpanzees, we are quite different from them (well, at least most of us :crazydanc ) and we cannot produce offspring (however tempting or disappointing that may sound :goof: ) because we belong to different families (we are Hominidae family and they are Pongidae), geni (we are Homo they are Pan) and species (we are sapiens they are troglodytes). However, it is possible for different species (that DO share the same genus) to produce offspring. For example, male donkeys and female horses sometimes mate and produce an offspring known as a mule. The offspring they produce, the mule, is almost always sterile. The horse and the donkey are not members of the same species, but share the same genus (Aquus).

So, it is almost certain (99.99%) that PK's and humans share ancestors, but given that they are not the same species, those common ancestors cannot be from 5,000 or 10,000 years ago (i.e. Egyptians), but much more older than that. We are talking about maybe a million years ago or even more (we split from chimps "only" between 4.6 and 6.2 million years ago). So there you go!

[fandom]

If Peacekeepers came from Earth, why would they travel for a couple of centuries before settling in another planet? Wouldn't it be easier to do it in a planet closer to Earth?

As for Earth being a dead planet, the images Scorpius showed at the end of the third season to John didn't show that.

And indeed, the idea of different species procreating is silly, when I first watch 'They've got a secret' I thought, 'Oh please!, not another series in with cross species offspring'.

But that's the way it works with science fiction on TV, it's silly, makes no sense, but the explanations about why it makes no sense are nothing but technoblable to the writers.

Besides, even if sebaceans and humans look alike, our insides are very different, we don't suffer from heat delirium or have a nerve in the chest to do our kidneys work.

Evolution would take millions of years to do that, and probably wouldn't anyway, and Peacekeepers don't seem to be more than two or three thousand years ahead of us in technology. But this is technobabble, feel free to ignore it.

[Darth Buddha]

On the other hand, the engineered slave labor bit (gee, our probes brought back this being from so very far away... good quality of manual labor) is O.K. with distance, is O.K. with history (they wouldn't have any), and is O.K. with evolution.

[fandom]

But it is not ok with technology, why bother with rebelious slaves when you can have machines?

Well, yes, I have watched Terminator and Matrix, still I would rather have machines.

But again, this is technobable. If I don't like the idea of sebeceans coming from Earth is because it is too contrieved and hardly original since it was done in The planet of the apes and Voyager.

[Darth Buddha]

Technology breaks. Biology breeds.

Believe me, you and I will see more tool oriented bio-engineered "products" before our days are done. Right now they are limited to things like pet mice whose pelts flouresce under UV light, but we'll be looking at first more advanced bio-engineered pets (a dog that you aren't allergic to, for example), then eventually more advanced beasts of burdern, and maybe even primitive servicers (improved sheep dogs, elephants for construction in some parts). The step to slaves would be a slight one, and if they are engineered to adapt to a technology unfriendly environment, they could be way useful.

It is an old trick, it has been done lots of other places too. It is a VERY popular plot device.... for many decades now.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Okay, far be for me to speak for Roland, but this is more what I got from his post...I think he's saying that if John went into the future, and the Sebaceans are from earth...or an alternate earth...than they would have left a LONG time ago, and they would have forgotten their origins.

Is that it Roland?

Thats it Judith! :aok: :)

[witchdoctor]

I too like the idea that Crichton traveled through time as well as space in the wormhole and that the origins of the Sebaceans lie with Earth and humanity. The enterons and others would have to be related to humans somehow too, since Jool's brother (?) was a close enough match to humans to serve as donor for Crichton's medical procedures. Also the symbol in What Was Lost with human, enteron and sebacean symbols.

Fandom is right, though, there are many things that must be accounted for. Why don't Peacekeepers, or anyone else, remember Earth or humans? If they are from common stock, then where did the differences between humans, enterons and sebaceans come from? Random mutations, genetic drift and standard evolution would take millions and millions of years, yet it does not seem that much time has passed since John left Earth (assuming for the sake of argument that he did indeed travel to the future through the wormhole).

You would have to postulate some things to come up with an explanation, but it is possible. BTW, I am not necessarily saying these are the truth, just that they could be given what we know from the aired episodes so far. I would also accept the story Horizons as data. The point for me is more in flesshing out the alternatives and figuring out what would have to be true for them to work.

1. The sebaceans, enterons, ?baniks and other human appearing aliens are descended from genetically altered human stock by some as yet unknown race. Perhaps humans were felt to be good slave/manual labor stock as has been suggested. People were "taken" from earth and transported to alien worlds and geneticall engineered for the worlds or work. This could have occured long enough in our past that we have no societal memory of the kidnappings. Slaves might eventually lose track of their origins, but there would probably be some oral tradition and legends of a far off homeworld. The absence of such legends or traditions in PK and Enteron society would need an explanation. Some sort of chatastarophy causing the collapse of the slavers civilization might do that. There would then be a dark age from which the now separate branches of humans would need to emerge to produce the competing civilzations.

2. Sebaceons and Peacekeepers are a direct descendent of Earth society. Maybe the effect of John's return with Moya and crew iniated the changes in Earth society that resulted in the emergence of the Peacekeeper civilization. Somewhere late in the 4th season (maybe A constellation of Doubt or when Crichton called his dad via phone from the moon to say goodbye?) we find out that Earth has changed and responded to the visitation and has made significant strides towards one government. It is conceivable that spurred by fear of the alien weapons and potential enemies (remember the skreeth in Kansas?) that any government might end up being security and militarily inclined. This still leaves the question of why the differences in sebacean and human physiology and no memory of Earth or recognition of humans.
Catastrophic war with viral weapons that cause genetic mutation could account for the genetic differences. Heat intolerance is not exactly a trait that would be desired in an organized genetic uplift program, but as a consequence of some weapon, it is possible. Maybe Earth was destroyed or cut off due to the war too , accounting for the cultural amnesia.

Just ideas. Admittedly, I don't think the writers were intending this all along. Probably the aliens look similar because it makes for better stories and relationships and the evolutionary genetics were NOT worked out in advance by the writers. I am also not entirely happy with any of the explanations I can think of for the lack of recognition of humans or memory of Earth. Maybe someone more creative can think of a good reason for that within these scenarios, or better yet a completely different third scenario. This after all is one of the joys of SF (speculative or science fiction).

[Roland]

Fandom is right, though, there are many things that must be accounted for. Why don't Peacekeepers, or anyone else, remember Earth or humans? If they are from common stock, then where did the differences between humans, enterons and sebaceans come from? Random mutations, genetic drift and standard evolution would take millions and millions of years, yet it does not seem that much time has passed since John left Earth (assuming for the sake of argument that he did indeed travel to the future through the wormhole).

Keep in mind that this is the series that gave us the "Human jumping between spaceships without a space suit holding his breath freezing a little at almost 0 degrees kelvin!"

(Look at the Princess!)

[witchdoctor]

Originally posted by Roland
Keep in mind that this is the series that gave us the "Human jumping between spaceships without a space suit holding his breath freezing a little at almost 0 degrees kelvin!"

(Look at the Princess!)

Yes, that one bothered me, but I was able to force myself back into a willing (forced actually) suspension of disbelief. It did jar me a little out of my usual Farscape trance, but overall Farscape is just so good, I can deal with the occasional vacume breathing alien. Moya and leviathans are fine; they were specifically engineered to be spacefaring lifeforms. But D'Argo, Noranti and others I find hard to believe.

[Roland]

I hear that doc! All I'm saying is that this is Farscape NOT Star Tralk...uh...trek! :D So mayby it doesn't take millions of cycles for Interions to grow foreheads and changing hair colors! ;)

ps. I hate that space jumping scene. The worst part is that the scene before that one is one of the best Farscape scene ever! Ben, Fran and David were brilliant! :)

[Judith]

Originally posted by witchdoctor


Just ideas. Admittedly, I don't think the writers were intending this all along. Probably the aliens look similar because it makes for better stories and relationships and the evolutionary genetics were NOT worked out in advance by the writers. I am also not entirely happy with any of the explanations I can think of for the lack of recognition of humans or memory of Earth.

I disagree. We've been getting hints from the writers that humans might be related to the aliens on Farscape since the first season.

Spoilers...Family Ties

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Crais: Ever wonder why our species look so alike?

(Or something like that...I don't remember exactly what he said...but I think that's pretty close.) And I think they might have mentioned it one other time in the first season.


Spoiler- LATP

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In the second season we have LATP, where John finds out that he's genetically compatible with Sebaceans.

Anyway, the writers HAVE been dropping hints since the beginning of the show. This isn't filler material or something they came up with off the cuff to explain why John looks like some of the aliens. I think they've had a definate arc in mind since they started the show.

Also...remember...if you aren't happy with the lack of explanation we have now...we haven't gotten the whole show yet.

[Darth Buddha]

Good points, Judith_Shakespeare... and yes, I think it is part of the story arc.

[fandom]

I don't think he hold his breath, I think he had his mouth wide open so that air has an easy way out of the body.

That's what the actor in 2001 did wrong, holding your breath is a idea bad in that case.

And getting cold in space takes time, as there is no cold anything to touch you and take your heat away, heat loss has to be through radiation and that is slow.

Certainly Arthut Clark is sure it is survivable, I have my doubts, though, unless there is helium instead of nitrogen in the air.

[Darth Buddha]

You are dead on... Clark thoroughly researched everything.

Technically, what John did is feasible... though if you did it in full sunlight, you'd boil, and if you didn't release some from your lungs, you MIGHT explode.

So this was on the night side, and he let off enough steam not to damage his lungs.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
You are dead on... Clark thoroughly researched everything.

Technically, what John did is feasible... though if you did it in full sunlight, you'd boil, and if you didn't release some from your lungs, you MIGHT explode.

So this was on the night side, and he let off enough steam not to damage his lungs.

Ok...granted this is something I know nothing about...but...shouldn't being in the vacuum of space have affected his eyes?

[zelbinion]

Originally posted by fandom

And getting cold in space takes time, as there is no cold anything to touch you and take your heat away, heat loss has to be through radiation and that is slow.


I have to disagree w/ this. Space is the absence of heat, therfore registering as cold. In fact the coldest temps known. In fahrenheit that is -400 degrees (absolute coldest). Heat loss from the body is a passive process. It does not require cold water or air but rather a change in tempature gradient. The greater the difference, the faster the loss of heat.

Examples would be liquid nitrogen. if it touches your skin, that part instantly freezes. Liquid Nitrogen is warmer than known temps of space.

If the body is suddenly exposed to a vacuum effect, that in and off itself would be a force touching you. Heat loss also takes place in breathing as the air we breathe serves to cool our bodies in time of exertion. And warm our bodies in time of cold. Again a passive process by which the pressure gradients within the body attempt to equalize with the enviorment.

The Movie Event Horizon, showed a human spacing himself in an airlock. Right before the door opened he came to his senses and blew all his air out (though physically impossible to to residual volumes that must be maintained to kee the aveoli from collasping) In theory this was an attempt to equalize his lungs with the vacuum alowing him a few more seconds of life.


The idea of non human / sebacean species walking around in the vacuum of space with nothing but a respirator is hard to swallow simply from the idea of the pressure equalization requirements in the eyes and ears. Of coarse, I am sure some creative write with a strong background in biology could come up with a few reasons why it works for them

[Darth Buddha]

O.K., zelbinion, you know some basic science. But I can only give you an A-.

Space is a nearly perfect vacuum. A perfect vacuum is a perfect insulator.

Heat is vibrational energy of molecules. Vacuum is the absence of molecules. No molecules, no heat. Conversely, no cold either... cold is in this sense the ability to absorb heat. No heat capacity, no heat, no cold.

In direct sunlight, in space, absent the protection of the atomosphere, you boil... because you get all that energy pumped into you and because there is nowhere for it to go because you are surrounded by a vacuum... the perfect insulator.

To use a terrestrial example.... cold air vs. cold water. 70 degree air won't kill you by hypothermia. 70 degree water will... eventually. Why? Water is more dense, more heat/cold capacity.

There will be a test later!

[zelbinion]

Doh.........

Just when I thought college was over,..... another test


though coming from a biology / medical background, I need to go back to the books to debate this further.

however, it seems that as the molecules (gas, liquid, solid) move from area of greater pressure (the body) to an area of lesser volume (vacuum) that heat produced by the movement of said molecules would be rapidly lost. Unless there was a way to make ones body capable of holding in all molecules (whatever form) from escaping into the vacuum.

Of coarse I could be wrong, Physics was a long time ago. A&P thats my area but we never seem to get any patients that have been recently spaced.

[Roland]

Just face it guys, science or popcorn religion.....He would be DEAD after 1 microt!

Ps. I love Event Horizon!!!

[zelbinion]

Originally posted by Roland
Just face it guys, science or popcorn religion.....He would be DEAD after 1 microt!

Ps. I love Event Horizon!!!

well, that is the true beauty of sci fi, the reasons why don't have to make sense as long as the story is entertaining.

I just found Event Horizon on DVD, Had to add it to the collection.:aok:

[Judith]

Originally posted by zelbinion
well, that is the true beauty of sci fi, the reasons why don't have to make sense as long as the story is entertaining.


No, no. no...SCIENCE and fiction.

The reason that scene bothered me so much...is...I don't require sci-fi shows to have perfect science. But I majored in Lit. I got D's in biology and astronomy. (in my defense...biology was my first semester, and I was dumb enough to think I didn't have to go to classes...and astronomy was the semester I had mono and I don't really remember it at all). But anyway...my criteria is...if there's any "sciencey" part where I go "whoa...that ain't right"...they maybe should have done some more research.

[fandom]

Originally posted by Roland
Just face it guys, science or popcorn religion.....He would be DEAD after 1 microt!


NASA disagrees:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

It is curious, with all the bad science Farscape throws at us, not that I am complaining, when they do something that is, at least, theoretically feasible, they never hear the end of it.

[Darth Buddha]

Originally posted by zelbinion
however, it seems that as the molecules (gas, liquid, solid) move from area of greater pressure (the body) to an area of lesser volume (vacuum) that heat produced by the movement of said molecules would be rapidly lost. Unless there was a way to make ones body capable of holding in all molecules (whatever form) from escaping into the vacuum.

Of coarse I could be wrong, Physics was a long time ago. A&P thats my area but we never seem to get any patients that have been recently spaced.

Well, fandom's post with the link does a good job of getting this from NASA, but I'm gonna take a crack at the science me-self.

You are on target again... so long as you avoided direct sunlight, you WOULD freeze... eventually. Higher energy molecules would leave (boiling in the case of liquids, sublming in the case of solids), reducing the overall energy of the system until it was frozen solid.

It would just take a while. You sure as hell aren't gonna be flash frozen. As I said before, I think the real risk if I were orbiting around a planet (let's say with air & helmet only) would be when I get to the bright side. THEN I'm dead. I fry. Further out, way out, yes, I'll freeze. Eventually. But not for a while.

Skin is a pretty good pressure suit. It will hold until it freezes hard. That'll take awhile. After that, if I'm far enough from the sun, I'll dessicate... but really damned slowly. Like REALLY damned slowly.

But short term, even the eyeballs do pretty well with presure (ever done any free diving? -- they do pretty well up to several multiples of atmospheric pressure -- so dropping one ATM isn't gonna blow them up either). Given enough time, I'd bet the eyeballs would pop some blood vessels before they froze solid.

Event Horizon was a horror film. So they made the process as traumatic as possible. Outland ('78?) made the decompression process one where you blew up. Also poppycock. Hard scientists mock both. I guess this is a case where if a lie gets told often enough that people start to believe it is the truth. The only way that could happen is if you were in a high pressure environment (way more than 1 ATM) and THEN decompressed (James Bond, "The Living Daylights").

So, no, Roland, he wouldn't be dead in one microt... THAT would be science fiction.

[witchdoctor]

Fandom, I think the thing you are not taking into account is conductive heat transfer. Conduction is how skin contact with liquid nitrogen freezes so quickly. In vacume there is nothing to conduct the heat so you are left with radiation as the only way to lose heat. As Darth Bhudda pointed out, that is a much slower process. It can be a quick process if the radiation is intense, such as direct sunlight in space, which is why you would probably heat up faster in direct sunlight in space than you would cool down in shade in space. The human body is not a strong radiation source, althoughh we do radiate in some spectra.

Judith_Shakespeare, all right, I was wrong when I said a relationship between humans and Sebaceans wasn't part of the story arc. Your episode referrences are true. I was thinking more in terms of the general tendency of science fiction shows to have aliens that look like humans when I said that. Farscape definitely does a much better and more imaginative job of making different looking aliens than most other shows. BTW when I said I was not happy with most explanations of why humans and Earth were not known to galactic civilizations, I meant in my own scenarios rather than what was offered in the Farscape episodes. I said someone more creative than me could think of better explantations, and the writers would definitely be included in that group!

[Darth Buddha]

You know, witchdoctor, I think it is very cool how you get scientists from different fields who come to the same conclusion via different constructcs.

For me, it was about vibrational and kinetic energy and heat capacity of a body and the surroundings... I was a working chemist for ten years, so that's how I think. For you, conductive heat transfer was the way you thought of it.. I'd guess that's the physician's way of looking at it? A good way of thinking about hypothermia, for sure.

This board is very cool that way.

As to the story arc... well, they had to include the Sebacean/Human similarity element if they were going to make the romance between Aeryn and John work (though, for myself, were I John, I would have found myself more drawn to Zhaan early on).

The question is whether they REALLY wanted that as part of the story arc from the get go or whether they sort of took an apologist approach to an obvious weakness in the series (common to just about all science fiction series) that later got elaborated on by some good writing.

Short of some candid interviews, we'll probably never know.

[witchdoctor]

Darth Buddha, Yes, the point about when the Human-Sebacean connection became part of the story arc is one I wondered about too. I think things in the plot are done for a variety of reasons. In these boards and our discussions, we usually assume everything is part of a story arc (and many times they are, which is one of the reasons I like Farscape so much), but Farscape is just a TV show on other levels. That means that they have a budget and time constraints and sometimes they have to compromise. Sometimes things are done so the plot can get to a certain point. But you're right, without behind the scene interviews, we won't know for sure what were the reasons for certain plot choices. I think some of the more successful plot elements may turn out to have been serendipity. Something may have been done or a caharacter added by chance, but it then really works and they run with it. Or maybe someone says "Hey remember back in the last season when (insert event or scene).? Wouldn't it be cool if we had (insert character or prop) come back and turn out to be (insert revelation)?" I don't know if the chryserium (spelling?) blossom we saw in Incubator was intended or someone just took advantage of it and used it later in the 4th season. Lucky for us and the series, they have done a great job of it.

[Roland]

Originally posted by fandom
NASA disagrees:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

It is curious, with all the bad science Farscape throws at us, not that I am complaining, when they do something that is, at least, theoretically feasible, they never hear the end of it.

NASA? You mean IASA! :D

....I better stay with the fiction part of Farscape! ;)

[Judith]

Originally posted by witchdoctor
In these boards and our discussions, we usually assume everything is part of a story arc (and many times they are, which is one of the reasons I like Farscape so much), but Farscape is just a TV show on other levels. That means that they have a budget and time constraints and sometimes they have to compromise. Sometimes things are done so the plot can get to a certain point. But you're right, without behind the scene interviews, we won't know for sure what were the reasons for certain plot choices. I think some of the more successful plot elements may turn out to have been serendipity. Something may have been done or a caharacter added by chance, but it then really works and they run with it.

Okay, not to be too picky, but why does everyone assume this about TV writers? Sometimes it's a coincidence and they run with it, yeah. But most of the time it's very carefully thought out. An episode doesn't just have one finished script that the actors use. There are multiple drafts for each script. Also, this is a show where other members of the crew and cast are allowed creative input...a lot of times we'll see in an interview that an actor went to talk to the writers about x scene they weren't comfortable with, and how he or she could make it more natural for his or her character. Also, on most TV shows, there will be script doctors on set, to fix problems that don't work, and are only caught on the day of filming. Yes, some things slip through. But when one of the actors delivers a line brilliantly, we don't assume that it was a mere coincidence. We give them credit for their good work. Give the writers credit too. I'm not saying this to nitpick, but because I'm a fiction student. And I know that writers on well written shows like Farascape are often highly qualified people who take their craft quite seriously, and are therefore very methodical when involved in the writing process. There are mistakes and coincidences, and that can be because of time constraints. But very often we see wonderful acting on Farscape in the face of time constraints. The writers are doing the same thing.

[Darth Buddha]

Well, if you read several of the interviews posted on this board, they didn't really figure out where they wanted the series to go until they created Scorpius and decided he was too good to play subsidiary evil Spock to Bailar's demented Kirk. That was end of season 1.

I think they were also starting to think about the human/Sebacean story arc by end of season 1.

But that doesn't mean it was fleshed out. I don't think Farscape is a case like Babylon 5.... and even in that case, they altered the story arc a lot to deal with potential cancellations, stars moving one (the whole bit with Boxleitner's character to replace Sinclair wasn't part of the original plan, from what I've read). In some cases, it probably actually made the series more interesting.

Zhaan's death, for example wasn't part of any story arc. Nobody could have forseen Ms. Hey's difficulties with the make-up.

Lani Tupu's desire to reduce his burden was also unexpected... and suddenly Crais is dead in a noble gesture. Completing the redemption of his character - when without Scorpius, he wouldn't have even started down that path to begin with.

But to suggest that this sort of process demeans the writers is, to my mind, backwards. That they pull these things off in the face of questions regarding whether there will even be a second season, whether certain actors will continue on, etc. is a testament to their abilities.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha


But to suggest that this sort of process demeans the writers is, to my mind, backwards. That they pull these things off in the face of questions regarding whether there will even be a second season, whether certain actors will continue on, etc. is a testament to their abilities.

I guess what bothers me is the assumption that everything smart they do is mere coincidence. Yes, the writers are wonderful at...being able to run with a new challenge and make it work. But there is also a methodical side to writing that's very challenging...and sometimes can seem very tedious for people who are in it for the long run. So while I don't think it was all planned out Babylon five style, I do think the writers and creators had some basic idea of where they wanted to take the show since season one. Not a huge fleshed out plan, but a little spark of something they wanted to run throughout the whole show. And I give them credit for being able to think fast and being able to run with things as they happened. I just want people to realize that not everything is an accident. When they write a line, or a scene, they are very aware that it could create ripple effects throughout the show. And they have ideas of where those ripples could take them. They don't always use these ideas...sometimes they find even better paths to take the show, but from a writer's standpoint, Farscape is very well written and the writers have always been very thoughtful what effect their material will have on the future of the show.

[witchdoctor]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Okay, not to be too picky, but why does everyone assume this about TV writers? Sometimes it's a coincidence and they run with it, yeah. But most of the time it's very carefully thought out,,,

Judith_Shakespeare,

My apologies if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that Farscape or other TV shows were all just done by the seat of their pants and all the goodness due to chance. Quite the opposite, I think they all (writers, actors, producers, artists, set designers etc) work very very hard to produce the shows. This is apparent from behind the scenes interviews and commentaries, as well as the work itself. The use of the term serendipity implies not just good luck, but the insight and talent to take advantage of it.

The assumption I usually make and made in nearly all the posts on these boards is that the plots are thought out in advance and elements placed purposefully for use later in the season or series. This is one of the things that makes Farscape so good. The point I was making, and this was partially in response to Darth Buddha's statement that "Short of some candid interviews, we'll probably never know." I have read interviews with writers and actors in which they say that sometimes plot or stylistic choices are made for logistical reasons (time, budget, illness), but then work out or effect something else in the story. For example, when Harrison Ford's character in the first Indiana Jones movie pulls out his revolver and shoots the swordsman, it was originaly planned that Harrison Ford would do a long stunt intensive fight scene with the swordsman. However, Harrison Ford was sick with dysentary and too exhausted, so they just told him to pull out his gun and shoot him. That turned out to be one of the more memorable moments in the film though. This isn't a criticism of anyone involved in Farscape, just an acknowledgement that they too have to work in the real world and it is another possible factor in the creative choices they make.

[Judith]

You know, I think I've been a little oversensitive here.

:D

It happens, right?

[witchdoctor]

Yeah, it happens. No problem though. Or I guess the Aussie thing to say would be "no worries." At least that is what one of my residents, who happened to be from Australia, would say when I was an intern. (Unfortunately, that was just after he had dumped something on us and was about to leave, but that is a whole other story.)

[Darth Buddha]

Yep, you are among friends.

[Judith]

Cool. Since you all are so understanding, I now returning you to your regularly scheduled program of...uh...what's this thread again?

Ah. PK homeworld.

Mars. Underground. That's why our stuff keeps dissapearing.