Flu Shot Reaction Question

[LadyCrais]

So I finally broke down and got my very first flu shot this year. The release asked about allergies to thimerosal and mecurochrome in addition to eggs. Not having a clue what the former was at the time (why don't they just say the words, are you allergic to MERCURY?? d'oh, of course, who isn't?), I said no and took it.

So now I'm trying to figure out if a swelling lump about the size of a golf ball and still growing that also still itches on day 3 after the shot warrants my declaring myself allergic to flu shots (or the ingredients thereof). All I can find on local reactions is that about a third of people have minor swelling and redness for a day or two. Any healthcare workers or otherwise experienced people who might have a better clue how to judge the severity of this reaction than I have?

If it's any help, this is very like my allergic reaction to beestings. The first by a species causes about this same level of reaction, perhaps slightly less. The second or later, after my immume system has been primed, results in uncontrolled swelling that, for instance, once reached from a stung foot clear up to the hip along with systemic affects that are less than full blown anaphalactic shock but scary nonetheless. The swelling only went down after a shot of epinephrine a week and a half later after it was to the level of my hip. So my concern is that something similar will happen if I take a second flu shot next year.

[Third EYe]

I don't know, I don't get flu shots, ever. The only time I got them, was when I had no choice, in the Army, and they shot us with the air guns, no marks, no lumps, no blood, that I can remember.

Don't want to scare you, but there are reasons I don't accept the vaccine.

Read this

http://64.41.99.118/vran/vaccines/flu/vaccine_flu.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/flu/vacfacts.htm

http://www.thirdage.com/health/adam/ency/article/002025.htm

http://www.healthandage.com/Home/gm=20!gid7=59

One of these sites may say something about the lump, but if I remember correctly, it happens, but not the size of a golfball, more like 2 or 3 quarters.

[LadyCrais]

I just waded thru a whole slew of other sites on the dire things that can come of a flu shot looking for an answer. This Guillain-Barre syndrome is scary stuff, that just happened to be featured in Vital Signs in the issue of Discover I got yesterday. Then there's the tales of folks who simply go home and die the same day of their shot. Sheesh!

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "2 or 3 quarters". Are you saying 1/2 to 3/4 the size of a golf ball, or 2 or 3X the size of a quarter, which I would have thought would be bigger than a golf ball.

[Darth Buddha]

Oh, that qualifies as an adverse reaction, all right.

I do take the flu vaccine... my immune system doesn't do a very good job if I've accidentally eaten gluten (too busy killing my small intestine to bother with any virus), so I need the protection.

But I do worry about the outfits who manufacture vaccines. Wyeth, who dropped out of the flu game, staffed their efforts entirely with temporaries, got warning letters for shoddy quality control pretty often, and produced a sub-potent batch back in '97 that actually made it into people.

Temping the bulk of you workforce for six or seven months a year pretty much assures you of massive turnover, no organizational memory, and pretty much crap work as far as I am concerned.

Moreover, the FDA doesn't seem to be as effective in policing biologicals like vaccines as they are with more conventional, small molecule pharmaceuticals.

[Shipscat]

The problem with any allergic reaction is that you never know when a mild reaction could be full blown anaphylaxis. It could happen next time you have a flu shot if this is an allergic reaction.

I've never had a flu shot (and I have a very good immune system-knock wood) but I've toyed with the idea because of working with the elderly. But I have an intolerance to eggs. Not an allergy, but a digestive thing..and I always waffled. Now they've finally said that if you have any reaction to eggs at all that you should NOT take the shot.

[littulkittons]

Talk to your doctors about your concerns. I'm assuming you see someone about your allergies.

My observation is reactions to the flu shot this year have been pretty minimal. Some years you get more localized swelling and redness at the injection site than others.

Remember, the really dire reactions that people love to talk about don't happen all that often. Of course it isn't good if you're the one in however many thousands it happens to. Compared to how many people die of the flu each year, the risk is usually worth the benefit.

About people taking the flu shot and dropping over dead later that day. Without an autopsy to confirm the cause of death, how do you really know what killed the person? As I like to point out when discussion veer off in this direction, we give flu shots in the fall, and the leaves fall off the trees. Coincidence or a drug company plot?

[LadyCrais]

Originally posted by Shipscat
The problem with any allergic reaction is that you never know when a mild reaction could be full blown anaphylaxis. It could happen next time you have a flu shot if this is an allergic reaction.

Yippers, that would be the truth and the reason for my concern. And my history with allergies is first mild, then full-blown. And at least some things I can't be desensitized to. When I took allergy shots, I was never able to make it through the dilution series to the full strength for the fall allergy serum. I got stuck at either 1/1000 or 1/100 of full strength with a reaction about the size of a half dollar even after a year or two. Heck, I once walked through a pine forest and came down with the only case of hives I've had in my life.

I've never had a flu shot (and I have a very good immune system-knock wood) but I've toyed with the idea because of working with the elderly. But I have an intolerance to eggs. Not an allergy, but a digestive thing..and I always waffled. Now they've finally said that if you have any reaction to eggs at all that you should NOT take the shot.

There is probably no way I could possibly find it again, but I THINK I ran across something that allowed the egg allergic/intolerant to take flu shots. Maybe a new, non-egg based serum? I didn't read it closely since it didn't effect me. I was too busy with a whole heap of vehment complaints against purposely injecting mercury into ourselves and then calling it safe.

[Third EYe]

Originally posted by littulkittons


. Compared to how many people die of the flu each year, the risk is usually worth the benefit.





Not if it's me, it's not worth the risk. I'm weighing the two, possibly getting the flu, being sick for a week or two max, or dropping dead? I'll go with the possibility of being sick. Besides, I've been known to wash my hands, sometimes.

[LadyCrais]

Originally posted by littulkittons
Talk to your doctors about your concerns. I'm assuming you see someone about your allergies.

My observation is reactions to the flu shot this year have been pretty minimal. Some years you get more localized swelling and redness at the injection site than others.

Remember, the really dire reactions that people love to talk about don't happen all that often. Of course it isn't good if you're the one in however many thousands it happens to. Compared to how many people die of the flu each year, the risk is usually worth the benefit.

About people taking the flu shot and dropping over dead later that day. Without an autopsy to confirm the cause of death, how do you really know what killed the person? As I like to point out when discussion veer off in this direction, we give flu shots in the fall, and the leaves fall off the trees. Coincidence or a drug company plot?

LOL! Well obviously it's a drug company plot!!! I read the stats on 1/100,000 with the excessive flu shot reaction (eg. Guillain-Barre) versus 1/1000 for flu, or whatever it is. I'm not an alarmist by any means. I am, however, aware that my own body has a plethora of unpredictable reactions to any number of things.

And no, I don't deal much with doctors if it's at all avoidable. It is entirely too difficult to find one that actually applies thought and science to the practice of medicine rather than blindly going through a mechanic's checklist that the patient's body must adhere to or be assumed to be lying. If a doctor has never heard of a particular reaction, then it must not exist. Never mind that they've never heard of it because they can't be bothered to think logically or keep up with their own literature. As for sufficient curiosity to find out, do some research, and try to resolve the problem, that's a virtually non-existent trait in practicing doctors. Making money hand over fist doesn't require that kind of dedication or interest.

[LadyCrais]

Originally posted by Third EYe
Not if it's me, it's not worth the risk. I'm weighing the two, possibly getting the flu, being sick for a week or two max, or dropping dead? I'll go with the possibility of being sick. Besides, I've been known to wash my hands, sometimes.

I think the problem with this reasoning is that there is also some proportion of people who die from the flu each year. The flu shot is not just to prevent you from getting the flu. It's to make sure you don't get one that will kill you. So there's a whole 'nother set of probabilities that has to be thrown into the mix that you seem to be leaving out of your decision tree.

[Shipscat]

I would have no problem with a non egg-based serum. That would be great.

But for you, remember that there's a reason when you get allergy shots that they make you keep an epi-pen with you and stay in the office for twenty minutes afterwards. I'm sure you're fine this time because you would have already had a systemic reaction if you were going to, but *if* you're having an allergic reaction now, you need to think about it before having another flu shot.

[LadyCrais]

Well, my bad. I found the headline I saw earlier. It's not even remotely new and doesn't say you can take them. It says, SOME people can take them.

http://www.marshfieldclinic.org/cattails/00/sepoct/eggallergy.asp

[Shipscat]

Thanks. That's an interesting article.

I'm not in any of the high risk groups, tho-I don't know if it's worth the trouble.

[atlantagirl]

Originally posted by LadyCrais
I think the problem with this reasoning is that there is also some proportion of people who die from the flu each year. The flu shot is not just to prevent you from getting the flu. It's to make sure you don't get one that will kill you. So there's a whole 'nother set of probabilities that has to be thrown into the mix that you seem to be leaving out of your decision tree.

IIRC, the majority of people who actually die from the flu (and there are an astounding number who do each year) are generally already immuno-compromised. Old people, children, and people with existing health problems are much more likely to die from flu than normal, healthy adults.

Of course there is the occasional killer flu pandemic during which even healthy, well-nourished adults die in frightening numbers. The major problem here is that flu vaccine is created each year based on the educated guess of researchers as to which strains are going to be prevalent for that season. An unexpected killer strain may well be a mutation of an existing strain or even an entirely new strain. In either of those cases, that year's flu vaccine would likely not work against it anyway.

[Huh]

Hi LadyCrais,

I would seriously consider having the doctor take a look at it, not because I think you are currently in danger, but because they can make an assessment on the serverity of your reaction. I got my first flu shot last year and my arm was sore (and I mean really sore) for well over a week. It just hurt, a lot. It was also swollen, like I had some sort of ball in there, can't say how big it was though. I was a little worried about it to because I have some allergies to insect stings.

I just got the shot this year and it was much better. It was sore for a couple of days but I barely noticed it. By the way, last year was the first time I didn't get the flu, so it is definitely worth it to me.

It seems to me that you should have gotten an allergy workup at some point. Were you ever positive for poultry or egg reactions? My husband is allergic to chicken (and other poultry) so I am weary of him getting a flu shot. Eggs sometimes don't sit well with him either.

I think I remember reading about a new flu treatment that was inhaled. I am not sure it was a vaccine, but I think it was ok for people with egg allergies.

[LadyCrais]

Thanks Huh,

I was hoping someone with a similar reaction would stop by. You sound like you have pretty much the same reaction and the same concerns for the same reasons. Those pesky insect stings we react to. It's nice to know the repeat this year was a much lower reaction rather than more.

I have had a major allergy workup but we didn't bother with food because I've never had any problems with anything. The allergist went nuts repeating the animal testing though because he couldn't believe someone as highly allergy to mold, mildew and pollen didn't have the slightest allergy to her cats. As it turned out I was allergic to only one animal. Sheep! Which justified my many many years of complaining in vain to my mother that I couldn't wear wool because it makes me break out in a rash. Lanolin has always given me rashes too, which nobody believed until the sheep allergy was revealed.

On the issue of eggs, one thing has crossed my mind. I've heard people in other labs discussing sudden allergies to albumin developing in lab workers. Like one day they could eat eggs and the next they were in anaphalactic shock. Very very strange and supposedly related to their lab work. I seriously doubt if I work with it often enough for that to be even a remote possibility though. If it's real, it's probably hitting the protein folks.

Anyway, I talked to my mom tonight and discovered that my dad couldn't take flu shots. She didn't know what his reaction was, only that it was severe enough that in his 29 years in the military, they never made him take one. Methinks they must have made him take at least one to reach that conclusion. I'll probably wander over to the health services folks that gave me the shot on Monday and get them to advise me. It sounds like your reaction last year was worse than mine and it doesn't seem to have affected you with your second one. At least I don't have any overwhelming amount of pain. It's sore where the knot is, but my whole arm isn't out of commission or anything.

To be honest, I can't even begin to remember the last time I had the flu. Either that or these things I call colds are very mild flus, since my colds always result in 2-3 days of feeling ghastly and out of work followed by one horrific cough that goes away at the two week mark, but no fever or aches or cold chills, so I call them colds. And I usually only get those about once every five years, though this year has been unique with two. It was a bit of a crap shoot on whether or not I should even take the shot because I was on the very tail end of one of these colds when I had it. But I've had no symptom problems at all, just the localized reaction, which isn't overly uncommon in me anyway.

[littulkittons]

Lady Crais, you need to find a better class of doctors. The ones I work with, including the staff physicians, never stop learning. It does help that we work in an academic environment.

Atlantagirl, the thought of a killer flu pandemic gives the entire scientific and medical community a bad case of the “woodies.” As does a major outbreak of SARS.

Once again, the folks at the CDC accurately predicted what flu strains would be active this year so the flu vaccine will work if anyone decides to take it.

A flu shot will not prevent you from contracting the influenza if you are exposed. It primes your immune system to fight the virus as soon as you are exposed to it with the end result, hopefully, that you will have a much more mild illness than you would likely have if you didn’t get vaccinated.

There is an alternative to the shot. The only problem is you snort live attenuated influenza virus up your nose. If you're a health care worker and you decide to get your immunization this way, you have to be off work for 3 weeks because you can pass along the flu to anyone with whom you come into contact.

The virus in the shot is inactivated and really dead. You are not contagious.

[littulkittons]

Look up Dave Barry's column today. He explains the origins and history of the flu as well as modern day treatments.

[LadyCrais]

Once again, the folks at the CDC accurately predicted what flu strains would be active this year so the flu vaccine will work if anyone decides to take it.

Actually, no they didn't. They missed the one that's ravaging several states already. According to the CDC site, they are saying one of them is close enough that there should be enough cross-reaction with the antibodies made to the vaccine to reduce the severity if you catch the current strain. But we have definitely not been vaccinated against the specific strain that's running rampant now and our reaction to it will be far less than it would have been had they had it in the vaccine.

Anyhoo, I came here to post THIS article. ThirdEye, you need to get those kids of yours vaccinated (you have kids, right?) whether you're willing to take it or not.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20031127/D7V2NN280.html
Doctors Worry About Severe Flu Season


Email this Story

Nov 26, 11:20 PM (ET)

By DANIEL YEE

(AP) Lilly, 2, is comforted by her mother Karen Morelock, as she gets a flu shot at a the Arvada...
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ATLANTA (AP) - Four youngsters have died of the flu in Colorado since last week in what U.S. health officials say could foretell a severe flu season for the country.

The children were 21 months old, 2, 8 and 15, and their deaths startled some health officials because they happened so close together and so early in the season. Last year, Colorado had four child deaths over the course of the flu season, which normally peaks in January and February and runs through April.

Even before the deaths, there were signs that this could be an especially bad flu season. Some parts of the country - particularly Colorado, Texas and Nevada - have been hit hard a month earlier than usual.

Also, the flu strain that doctors are seeing is the H3N2 Fujian, part of a class of flu viruses that caused severe outbreaks in the United States in the 1990s.


"Doctors across the city are saying they've never seen a flu season like this," said Dr. Ned Calonge, chief medical officer for the Colorado Department of Public Health in Denver. He said nearly 4,000 cases of flu in adults and children have been reported in Colorado so far this fall.

The four youngsters are the only flu deaths so far in Colorado. However, flu-stricken children in both Texas and Colorado are being kept alive on ventilators in hospitals. And some schools in both states have seen high absentee rates or have closed to stop the spread of the flu.

The Colorado cases have prompted concern among parents who are rushing their children to the clinic for shots. Arvada Pediatric Associates has already given 862 shots in the past month, said administrator John Gordon. That contrasts with 745 shots given in the entire fourth quarter of 2002.

"I don't know if it's in my head, but she's been sick, and after watching the news, I realized she had some of the same symptoms," said Dennis Shing, who became worried about his 5-year-old daughter, Emma, after seeing news reports about the four children. "It's kind of scary."

The parents of one of the flu victims, 8-year-old Joseph Williams, went on TV with their story Tuesday night in hopes other parents would take sick children to the doctor.

"It happened so quick and so sudden," Scott Williams said. "He was fine. He wasn't even that sick."

"He just flat-lined and he looked at me," Carrieann Williams said. "Nobody could believe it happened."

Health experts said it will take time to determine whether this flu season will be especially dangerous for children.

"This is something that we are studying and are certainly are concerned about," said Dr. Scott Harper, infectious-diseases physician for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "But it's likely this is something that's been going on for years and we just have not recognized it before."

The deaths in Colorado are "a little bit out of the ordinary," said Dr. William Schaffner, chairman of Vanderbilt Medical Center's department of preventive medicine in Nashville, Tenn. "I think it's a manifestation of this H3N2 strain which causes more serious disease."

The deaths underscore an often-overlooked fact: Flu can be deadly in children.

Each year, an estimated 36,000 Americans - mainly the elderly - die from the flu. Health officials do not know how many children die, because states do not require doctors to report influenza cases.

"In general, people look as influenza as a benign illness like a common cold when in fact it's a serious illness," Harper said. The flu can cause pneumonia and other respiratory problems, heart failure and heart muscle inflammation in infants.

Last month, a CDC advisory panel recommended that children 6 months to 23 months old receive flu shots, since this age group has as great a risk of hospitalization from the flu as the elderly.

The Fujian strain - which originated in Fujian province, China - was not known when this year's flu vaccine was developed, so this year's formula does not exactly match the flu virus now circulating. But the vaccine will still help prevent the flu and its complications, Schaffner said.

Health experts continue to recommend that people get their flu shots, particularly infants and the elderly.

[eta_carinae]

That is so sad. I live near Denver, and they had the parents of the 8 year old that died on the news. I was almost in tears! The way they spoke of how he was fine on Friday, had a bit of a tummy ache, and then was dead by Monday.

It drives me insane when people don't get their kids vaccinated. Especially the ones who say "it's not natural." And having your child die of some totally preventable disease is better? Argh! The school I attend wouldn't let me sign up for next semester's classes until I showed them my immunization record to prove what diseases I have been vaccinated against. Why you wouldn't want to protect yourself or your children is beyond me.

I haven't gotten the shot yet, but I am definetly going to. The school I am attending has them for free for students, and I really, REALLY don't want to get sick this year!

[Third EYe]

I heard the dad on the radio eta_carinae, he sounded so helpless, and disturbed. The doctor told him it was just a cold. I'm not sure how liable the doc is, if at all, but with this flu ravaging the area, shutting down schools and being on the news everyday, you would think a doctor would think a bit harder before diagnosing a cold over the flu.

So far I have not been sick, but I take preventative measures, none of which are the vaccine.

[eta_carinae]

What could they really do though? I mean, with the flu (or a cold) its usually the same advice - "get lots of rest and drink plenty of fluids."

And I wasn't neccessarily refering to parents who don't get their kids flu shots in my little rant, it was more the people who don't get their kids things like the mmr, or polio or something like that. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

What are your preventative measures, if I might ask? I haven't gotten the shot yet, and I think it takes a couple of weeks to kick in anyway. Anything to help me not get sick is great! I've got some vitamin C and eccinacia (sp?), but beyond that I don't know.

[AgentSun]

i got my flu shot on monday and my arm is totally fine. it was sore until about yesterday, which isn't surprising since the shot hurt a little more than i expected.

interestingly enough, i have a cough right now and they said it was fine for me to get the shot even though i had a cough.

[Third EYe]

I always have zinc handy(cold-eeze is my prefered method of intake) and as soon as I feel the least bit edgy, I take it every 3hrs until I feel better, usually a day or two. I will throw out my tootbrush after use, if I feel sick that is. Cold Snap works well, but I don't always use that.

I always take vitamins A, C and E. These seem to really help.

I smoke, so I have a handicap there. I'm in the process of quiting, half a pack a day to go, then I'm done.

I have gotten the flu, and I do at least once a year, and when it comes on I always know that I made a mistake. I always feel like a heel, cause there were signs. The past two weeks everyone around me has had the flu. I escaped it, not by much.

I do think that the doctor could have done more for the kid, I don't know what, I just beleive that. I'm not saying it's his fault, just that there has got to be something more that they do when you have the flu than when you have a cold. I never go the doctor for something like that myself, which is probably a bad idea. I'm usually feeling too bad to go. I'd rather just sleep.

[DentArthurDent]

Lots of catch-22's here kids, so for all of you that are absolutely sure you are right, think about what you are absolutley sure you are right about. My children are NOT immunized. Naturally there was a big fight between me and my ex- at the time, so I said lets ask the pediatrician, who also happened to be the guy that delivered my son. He was very evasive, untill I pinned him to the wall with the argument about making an informed decision WITHOUT ANY INFORMATION. I asked him if all 6 of his kids were immunized. He eventually told me the first 3 were, the last 3 not.
So I wanted to know why. He pointed me to a Doctor named Randall Neustaedter who has written several authoritative books about immunizations in children and adults. One is:
http://www.cure-guide.com/Vaccine_Guide/vaccine_guide.html

The largest problem with this question is that there is so little information to make a decision. The government, most doctors, the CDC, industry, have all decided that either you immunize or you are satan. To them it's just a numbers game. One in a million against is really good odds to not have a severe reaction to immunization. That SEEMS reasonable doesn't it? Unless you are the one with the reaction. For you it is 1 in 1, and death is the likely outcome.

So what is better? Well, you might expect that there would be some kind of TEST for adverse reactions that you might give an infant, right? Unfortunately there isn't one. There is very little reasearch being done on reactions. Could it be that is because this is a garunteed multi-billion dollar business? Tell me I'm being paranoid, and I'll tell you of a friend's daughter that started pounding her head on the floor 36 hours after having her DPT. She's 10 now, has never spoken, cannot hear well, but the brain defects happened AT THAT TIME, she was not born with them. She is 1 in 1.

Few allergists will even attempt to find out what an infant is allergic to, but most doctors are willing to stick 'em full of needles. They get Hepetitis right away and by 2 months DPT and it goes on. But how do you know at that point that your kid isn't allergic to egg? You don't and the CDC and doctors etc. will tell you that the odds are low.

Fortunately for me, once my ex- forced the question, and we talked to our pediatrician, an informed choice was made. At 18months we discovered that Ander [now 9.5yrs] was hyper-allergic to many things ESPECIALLY FOODS. He would have gone into anaphalaxis if he had been immunized. In babies that often means death. And at the time the immunizations start there is no accepted way to test if the baby is allergic to being immunized. How luck do you feel? And the vast majority of people accept that immunizations are safe, because of the odds. Therein lies the problem. Tests would be forthcoming IF PEOPLE DEMANDED THEM. But no we are a buncha lemmings, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Struggle to make the INFORMED decision. For you, for your child, for everyone else.

[/rant] can you tell I feel a bit passionate on this?

As for Lady Crais and others that have reactions...well I have allergies pretty bad, and I have been in the ER with anaphalaxis [don't know the cause] And I have had bad reactions in the past to flu shots. For that reason I don't take them. There are lots of things you can die from in this life, and to the extent you can you try to guard against that. You wear seatbelts, have smoke detectors etc. But once you have allergic reactions to anything, you have GOT to start being careful. You Immune system IS compromised, even if only a little, so immune shots may be a bad idea. Try to maximize everywhere else, make sure your vitamin intake [best if from food!] is good, wash your hands, etc...

L/C you did have a reaction this time, and you were lucky. Please weigh the pros and cons before you tempt fate again, make the most informed decision you can, it is your life!

Arthur Frelling Dent

[Shipscat]

You know, I think you need to take a middle of the road approach to immunizations..

I understand AFD's point. My daughter had a nasty cold and a fever after her first DPT shot-the only illness either of my kids had in infancy. (breastfed and I have a constitution like a rock. Evidently they had good conferred immunity) They told me it was a coincidence, but I delayed her immunizations until she was older, because colds in babies are nasty and scary, and didn't start my son's until he was two. Well, she had a cold and fever with each and every DPT booster. Someone finally admitted to me that that was considered a normal (within exceptable parameters) reaction. My son never reacted to a shot. I don't know if it's because he was older when he started them, or because he was never going to react. So I was glad that I was cautious with them.

On the flip side, there was a whooping cough epidemic in my town, and I was glad that they had had the shots. We have a significant population of people who don't believe in immunizations, and the pertussis vaccine is not 100 percent. I had a little girl that I was watching at the time whose parents would not take her to the doctor to confirm that her persistent cough was or was not whooping cough, and I had to quit watching her.

The people who do not immunize their children are in effect, counting on the rest of the world to immunize theirs, and because the immunizations aren't 100 percent, they're putting immunized and other un-immunized kids at risk of disease. So it does work better if everyone gets the shots. On the other hand, you should not be treated like an ax murderer if you have good reason not to get them for your children..and you can be sure that I did not shout it from the rooftops that mine had theirs so late.

[AgentSun]

well whenever i went to the doctor for something like that, no only am i charged like 20 bucks (co-pay) for it, i wait about half an hour only to go in for 10 minutes where the doctor pokes you with a tongue depressor then announces, with all the medical knowledge gained in 4+ years of medical school...

"take some cough medicine."

[Huh]

Originally posted by AgentSun
well whenever i went to the doctor for something like that, no only am i charged like 20 bucks (co-pay) for it, i wait about half an hour only to go in for 10 minutes where the doctor pokes you with a tongue depressor then announces, with all the medical knowledge gained in 4+ years of medical school...

"take some cough medicine."

Actually, this is not such a bad thing. Some doctors will prescribe antibiotics for a cold or flu that is almost certainly viral in origin. In other words, the antibiotics will do nothing for you except cost you money and possibly contribute to an increase in antibiotic resistant bacteria.

People feel very strongly about immunizing their children, but I think it is a more complex issue than immunizations being dangerous. Studies show that more and more children are developing allergies and asthma. There is also the suspicion that immunizations are linked to the high autism rates. Personally, I don't think anyone really knows what is going on with any of these strange occurances. They all need to be studied more. Immunizations have been proven to be very effective and safe. However, maybe the conditions have changed, and for unrelated reasons our children are now more susceptible than when the first studies were conducted.

I would not be surprised if this had an environmental link. In Massachusetts it is acceptible to pour radioactive materials down the sink as long as you stay under a certain limit. I think this is incredibly stupid. In Virginia you would loose you radiation license for doing something like that. States vary greatly in their environmental laws, so I think that it is difficult to determine a cause-effect relationship for environmental problems.

Just my scientific ramblings though. For the most part, unless there is an indication otherwise, you probably want to immunize. The only thing worse than loosing a child to a vaccination is loosing a child to an infectious disease that could be prevented by an immunization.

[jayelsee]

Hey, huh.....did you get my pm about the ebay sale?

Sorry about the OT......

[eta_carinae]

Originally posted by Third EYe
I always have zinc handy(cold-eeze is my prefered method of intake) and as soon as I feel the least bit edgy, I take it every 3hrs until I feel better, usually a day or two. I will throw out my tootbrush after use, if I feel sick that is. Cold Snap works well, but I don't always use that.

I always take vitamins A, C and E. These seem to really help.

Oh yeah, I forgot about those cold-eeze things. I've taken those before. I never thought about the toothbrush thing, that is a really good idea. I mean, if you got the virus on your brush, you're really not helping yourself at all by sticking it in your mouth twice a day. What is Cold Snap? Is that another sucker-type thing like cold-eeze?

[Visor]

This is a question out of ignorance. I've read plenty about antibiotic resistant bacteria due to heavy and frequent prescription of antibiotics. Is it possible that we are cultivating tougher strains of flu viruses in the same way? I do understand that bacteria and viruses are treated differently but do not know if they mutate the same way. Just curious.

[eta_carinae]

Well, I'm not a doctor, but I think the bacteria mutate quickly with overuse of antibiotics because the anitbiotics are designed to kill bacteria. And I'm not 100% sure, but I think antibiotics are not as specific to bacteria as vaccines are to viruses. When they aren't all killed, the ones that remain are better able to resist the antibiotic and are the only ones procreating. So you end up "breeding" resistant strains. It's a real problem when people start using antibiotics when they aren't going to help (ie: when you have a cold, or the rampant overuse in food animals when they aren't sick) because you end up breeding resistant strains without really needing to kill anything. Eventually, all of the antibiotics we have today will become useless.... you just have to hope they find new ones :)

With vaccines its a little bit different. You aren't injecting something to kill the virus so much as something to prepare your body to kill the virus, usually the virus itself (dead or very close to death). Your body could normally make the antibodies to kill the virus on its own, it just takes longer. Or in some cases it might not happen for some people at all (like polio or measles or something). Plus, with vaccines, I believe they only target the one specific type of virus that you are vaccinated against- the antibodies your body makes will only kill that one virus (unlike atibiotics that kill everything). I don't really know if the viruses mutate in response to the vaccine the way bacteria will. I do know there are strains of virus that mutate very fast on their own, like HIV. I think it has something to do with the way it replicates itself....something like the normal error checking during replication doesn't happen or somethingn like that.

There are many strains of the flu, and each year the CDC (or whoever decides what vaccine to make) make an educated guess as to which one will be the worst. This year, they missed one. Actually, I think its pretty impressive they are able to even come close with which viruses to make vaccines for....I have no idea how they do it.

If anybody else knows more than me (and I'm sure your out there!) please correct my mistakes and maybe you can explain the virus thing- if they mutate in response to a vaccine.