Dog tail tales - to dock or not to dock?

[fermicat]

Dog Fight in Court Over Length of Spaniel's Tail


ALBANY, New York (Reuters) - New York's highest court heard arguments on Wednesday in the case of a man who has refused to cut his dog's tail for national competitions.

Manhattan dog owner John Hammer wants the Court of Appeals to reinstate his suit against the American Kennel Club and the American Brittany Club which seeks to bar them from enforcing a 1926 breed standard for judging spaniels that takes points off for dogs with tails longer than four inches (10 cm).

Hammer contends that the "docked-tail" standard violates state law against intentionally injuring an animal and constitutes illegal discrimination because his dog's tail is 10 inches (25 cm). Lower courts have dismissed his complaints.

"These organizations encourage you to be cruel to animals and they punish you if you aren't," Hammer's attorney, Joseph Foley, told the six-judge panel.

The AKC and ABC both contend that the procedure maintains breed standards and protects the animal when it participates in either mock or real hunting expeditions.

"We are not perverted minds and we love animals," AKC attorney Dale Christensen told the court.

ABC attorney Debra Resnick said if the court ruled in favor of Hammer it will open a flood of lawsuits against the 145 other breed clubs in the country.

"It would be like making declawing a cat an act of cruelty," she said.

If a puppy's tail is too long, a breeder can tightly wrap rubber bands around it until the blood circulation is cut off and the rest of the tail "dies," Hammer said in explaining the trimming process.

Animal rights groups and activists across the country have donated money to his legal defense fund and sent hundreds of letters of support and several affidavits.

"I have affidavits from hunters who say that the longer tail is needed for communicating," Hammer said.

The Airedale Terrier Club of America and 10 other breed clubs have filed briefs in support of the AKC and ABC.


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At the risk of becoming a contender for next year's "Dren Stirrer" Frelly award, I thought I'd start a discussion on this subject after I saw this article. I'll be upfront about my position -- I do NOT approve of docking an animal's tail or ears (or any other body part) for aesthetic reasons. I'm not sure how I feel about this guy's lawsuit, but I do wish that docking was not a requirement to have a dog be "breed standard". Unless there is a functional reason to alter them, I believe animals should be left "as is". For example, I know that some hunting dogs need to have their tails docked because otherwise they become hopelessly tangled in the brush. This is OK for hunting dogs that actually hunt. But most of the tail docking is done because it makes the dog look more streamlined (or it is "breed standard" - even though it is obviously NOT a breed characteristic) and I think it is wrong.

I had a rottweiler and did not dock his tail. [My ex wanted to do it but I was able to persuade him not to.] People would look at him (the dog!) funny and ask what kind of dog he was. I'd say he was a rottie, and they'd say "but he has a tail". My answer was "yes, he came that way!"

So..... how about it? Pro? Con? Ambivalent? How do you feel about it?

[Darth Buddha]

I don't know. I had a miniature schnauser when I was a kid (lived 16 years, that silver haired, cantankerous beast!). He had both the ears docked and the tail when I got him.

I never thought of it as cruel. His little thumb of a tail was definitely very expressive!

WHEN I get another schnauzer (probably a standard) I definitely won't have his ears done... guess I'll have to see how this pans out before I form an opinion on the tail.

[Mickie]

As a springer spaniel lover, I really want to be able to get one without a docked tail, but it's all but impossible. There's no legitamite reason for docking a dogs tail. If you plan on hunting the dog, just shave the tail like you do all the other 'feathery' parts that you have to shave anyway.

I've heard that England no longer allows Springers with docked tails in their competitions. Any one know if this is true?

[talyn3]

My sister has two pit bulls that are not docked. You would never know that they were pit bulls, they look like a different breed, plus they're as friendly as about any lab I ever met. I heard someone say that docking disturbs the sense of balance in a dog, anyone else know about that.

[grinner]

Personally, I think it is silly to do it. But I have a friend who has a dog that is trained to go into warrens of groundhogs and other animals... and his ears and tail HAVE to be docked. Otherwise he would have an additional area that could be damaged. But... that terrier is a WORKING dog... that has a job to do... so it is different.

[fermicat]

I've got no problem with it, if there is a logical reason. But to cut off part of a dog's spine because it supposedly looks better that way is unnecessary and shouldn't be done.

[stellar]

Docking for looks is just silly. I also find it creepy when I see stub wag... that just freaks me out, like they have phantom pains or something.

[fermicat]

I have to admit, my rottie's tail was HUGE and destructive, but I couldn't imagine him without it. I think you're right -- those stubbies wiggling around ARE creepy. Poor things.

[mgraylorn]

I am strongly of the opinion that any sawing off of body parts merely for asthetic reasons or human convenience (as opposed to medical or working reasons) is cruel and barbaric. I'll stir the pot even further and say I feel the same way about declawing cats. To me that is the same as cutting off a child's fingers so it won't get into trouble. Watch a cat. They use their claws like fingers.

I don't know about the lawsuit though - that strikes me as a ploy to get personal attention/monetary gain. If the guy has ethical concerns, then trying to start a referendum within the organization to lead to change would be better.

[eta_carinae]

My sister has a labrador/weimeriner mix, and we didn't dock her tail. I remember she used to knock stuff off of low tables with it and if she got very excited, the thing was like a whip! I say was because about six months ago she had the dog in the car, along with her year-old daughter, and in the process of trying to get both dog and kid ready and out of the car, there was, well, an accident. The car has power windows, and my sister rolled them up, and Kinsey's tail was hanging out the window...... you can imagine the rest. So after she realizes what happened, with the tail still partially attached, she rushes to the vet clinic, where they have to amputate the end that was cut off. THEN, the dog wouldn't leave the bandage alone. They tried elizabethan collars, nasty tasting ointments, something that looked like a long tube, everything to try and get her to leave the bandage alone. Alas, she chewed anyway, it got infected, and they had to cut even more off. So what started out as this very long tail, is now a little stub! Poor thing. It's kind of funny to look back on it now (now that she's okay), I guess we got her tail docked, but totally by accident!

With regards to the cat-declawing comment the kennel club made, I think that is a cruel thing to do to a cat. The animal shelter where I work does not declaw, and we highly discourage it. The process is painful, and involves amputating the ends of the cats toes. It also leaves them virtually defensless with regards to wild animals, and we suggest that declawed animals remain strictly indoors. Both of my cats have their claws, and they only scratch their scratching posts that we taught them were okay.

The only intentional alteration of an animal for non health-based reasons that I see as very important is spaying and neutering (for obvious reasons), or if there is something that would interfere with the animal's ability to do a job. Even there I think there are very few cases that would be legitimate.

The breed "standards" that organizations have adopted are typically the result of rampant inbreeding and "purebred" animals are very often plagued by health problems caused by said breeding. While I would never turn down a purebred animal that needed a home, I much prefer "mutts" that have much better health and are usually cheaper. Of course, at the animal shelter, purebread or not, they all cost the same :aok:

[vikingscaper]

My family has a 10 year old Springer Spaniel and his tail was docked before we got him. Even though he doesn't have all of his tail, the stub still wags very much but it does look sort of stupid because it really looks like his butt is wagging whenever he is happy.

[mgraylorn]

I just wanted to add that I do view spaying/neutering as another important exception to the "no cut" feeling, along with medical and working reasons.

There are far too many homeless pets and their offspring out there, most of them die from starvation, disease, accidents or are euthanized. I just read something that says that the average lifespan of a house cat is now 15 years, with some reaching 20. The average lifespan of a feral or abandoned cat is 3 to 5 years.

[fermicat]

So far we're on the same page. Spay/neuter is necessary to control animal populations and reduce the number of unwanted pets. I also would never declaw a cat.

I wish so many breeders didn't automatically dock tails and ears. We were lucky to get the rottie before they did that to him.

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by fermicat
So far we're on the same page. Spay/neuter is necessary to control animal populations and reduce the number of unwanted pets. I also would never declaw a cat.

I wish so many breeders didn't automatically dock tails and ears. We were lucky to get the rottie before they did that to him.

AMEN to the spay/neuter comment!!!! And nobody better ever say they don't have the money because you can go to the local A.S.P.C.A. and they will give you a voucher to get your pet spayed/neutered for free at a certified vet. That said, unless you are a breeder, go spay or neuter your pet right now!!! :whip: Of course, if you are careful with your pet and don't allow any breeding, then you don't really have the need to spay/neuter. That's the PETA membership in me coming out! LOL

fermicat, I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with you on never declawing a cat. The majority of vets do not even put these cute little furries "under" for the operation. They hog-tie them, flop them on their backs and rip their claws out with glorified pliers. I beg everyone NOT to declaw their cats. If you need help with them scratching, I have many remedies, feel free to PM me!!!

Also, fermicat, I agree and disagree with you on the docking issue. I used to ride horses and the barn I worked at had two Clydesdales (the Budwiser horses), both with docked tails. They also had a Haflinger pony with a docked tail. It looked good on all three of these horses, and certianly raised their value, but I'm not sure it's worth the pain. However, I do know that (around here anyway) most of these animals are very, very young when their tails and ears docked or pinned, respectively. That said, they heal quicker than an older animal who has had this done.

I am planning on purchasing or resucing a Doberman puppy when I get my own place, and at first I believed in the tail docking and the ear pinning. However, I met this great Doberman named, Spike, who is anything BUT ferocious, and while his tail is docked, his ears are not pinned. I think this gives him great personality, just looking at him. I'm not sure where I yet stand on the docking of the tail issue, but you've got a while to convince me otherwise, fermicat!!!

Jacqui :love:

[stellar]

Well I used to have this Pit Bull named Herman. I didn't want to dock his tail but he was a born fighter. I wasn't about to have him go into the ring with a tail just to have the other dog bite it off... that would have been cruel. So I docked it real nice (like 3/4 long) and it made him super-aerodynamic; he could bob and weave and tear out the throats of his enemies. All in all he had 32 victories... and just the one defeat - RIP Herman.

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s20/smilies-26350.png

[JadedLegend3]

stellar, not to change the subject, but your sig from "Moby Dick" is pretty cool. I'm supposed to be reading that book in one of my classes this semester (Major American Writers 1), but I can't get into it. I like the story, just not the style of American writers in the 19th century. Just thought I'd comment.

Now back to your previously scheduled thread. :P

Jacqui :love:

[stellar]

That book is so good it's ridiculus. Even the British recognize Moby Dick as the greatest novel in the English language. I read it for fun when I was out of school (along with Les Miserables and The Divine Comedy and some other classics) - it's worth every boring piece of whale trivia you have to slosh through.

"I leave a white and turbid wake; pale waters, paler cheeks, where'er I sail. The envious billiows sidelong swell to whelm my track; let them; but first I pass." - Moby Dick, Chapter 37.

[JadedLegend3]

Oh! We're going to start the quoting game, are we??? Well! Let me just go get my book!!! :D

"Human madness is oftentimes a cunning and most feline thing." "Moby Dick", Chapter 41

Ha! :P

Jacqui :love:

[mgraylorn]

Stellar, you had me going there with the pit bull story. I was ready to freak out!

A good April Fool in November. Remind me not to start any threads around you in late March.

[stellar]

"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." - Chapter 41.

mgraylorn, I was joking about the Pit Bull. I would never fight dogs. Now roosters... that's a different story and they're much more entertaining.

[Darth Buddha]

If you are ever in Connecticut, stellar, check out the Mystic Seaport. They have some truly amazing whaling artifacts there... and the dude in the "Sextants and Clocks" shop (just for show) can give you more info about ship navitation in a half hour than I would have believed possible.

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by stellar
mgraylorn, I was joking about the Pit Bull. I would never fight dogs. Now roosters... that's a different story and they're much more entertaining.

LOL


"Hark ye yet again, - the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event-in the living act, the undoubted deed- there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside escept by thrusting through the wall?....Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations....Truth has no confines. Take off thine eye! more intolerable than fiends' glarings is a doltish stare!"
"Moby Dick," Chapter 36

Jacqui :love:

[BlackThorn]

Well before I got Bodie, I knew I wouldn't pin her ears, and I'm happy I made that decision. Gotta love those big, floppy ears. Adds so much to her range of expression. Pinning a great dane's ears may have been standard, but that was because they were bred to hunt boar. Not a lot of boar hunting going on nowadays, and they look just great with floppy ears.

Docking tails? Unless it interferes with work, there's no need for it.

Spaying and Neutering? A must if you aren't a professional breeder.

[Judith]

Wow....everyone here is really reasonable about docking, declawing, and spaying and neutering. (I volunteer in an animal shelter, and you wouldn't believe the amount of people who are just ridiculous about this stuff).

Also, I am happy to see other Springer Spaniel fans here. Although I hope to adopt my dog (when I get it...10 months til I can have a dog!) from a shelter, my parents have always believed that it is better to get a purebred dog. (I do not agree with them, but this is an issue that we've learned to agree to disagree on). When I was 13, we got a Springer, and he was the best dog I ever had. He was so intelligent, and so independant...always had to do his own thing. I love all animals, but I've never loved a dog more than I loved Casey. He died a few years ago...he used to eat random things lying around...(like pens, etc). He was a chewer and we were never able to train that out of him. Anyway, he got sick one day, and we took him to the vet and found that SOMETHING he had eaten had gotten twisted in his intestines, and they had started to rot. By the time we knew about it, there was nothing the vet could do to save him. Springer/Springer mixes are my absolute favorite dogs, even though I will never have one of my own again. It would be to painful, and would be unfair to the new dog. But I wanted to let other Springer fans know...there's this great organization called English Springer Rescue America...they rescue springers that are strays, have been turned in to the pound, etc., and foster them til they can find homes for them. It's one of the animal organizations I dontate to...whenever I have extra money, I sponser a special needs springer. Anyway, I just wanted to make you guys who have springers aware of this organization. Here's the website if you're interested: http://www.springerrescue.org/

[stellar]

"So far gone am I in the darkside of the Earth, that its other side, the theoretic bright one seems but uncertain twilight to me." Chapter 127

[JadedLegend3]

"He's a grand, ungodly, god-like man, Captain Ahab; doesn't speak much; but, when he does speak, then you may well listen." Chapter 16

You know, stellar, I'm really supposed to be writing that paper now... :P

Jacqui :love:

[stellar]

If it's on random Moby Dick quotes then you're in luck. If it's about The Rape of Lock, then you you're probably wasting time.

[stellar]

"These swell their Prospects and exalt their Pride,
When Offers are disdain'd, and Love deny'd.
Then gay Ideas crowd the vacant Brain;
While Peers and Dukes, and all their sweeping Train,
And Garters, Stars, and Coronets appear,
And in soft Sounds, Your Grace salutes their Ear." - The Rape of Lock.

[JadedLegend3]

Oh, it's on "The Rape of the Lock."

"'Boast not my fall,' he cried, 'insulting foe!
Thou by some other shalt be laid as low.
Nor think to die dejects my lofty mind:
All that I dread is leaving you behind!
Rather than so, ah, let me still survive,
And burn in Cupid's flams-but burn alive.'"
"The Rape of the Lock," Canto 5, lines 97-102


Jacqui :love:

[divinedaydreams]

I don't understand why these breeders just don't breed for smaller tails. My Australian Shepard has a naturally docked tail look. She managed to have a litter of puppies with some mutt down the road. Two had her tail, two had his long tail, and the other five had tails that were inbetween. Now she is fixed and the puppies all went to really great places but it shows docking isn't necessary at all. I know a lot of vet places where they will not dock or declaw. I look for those vets.

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by divinedaydreams
I don't understand why these breeders just don't breed for smaller tails. My Australian Shepard has a naturally docked tail look. She managed to have a litter of puppies with some mutt down the road. Two had her tail, two had his long tail, and the other five had tails that were inbetween. Now she is fixed and the puppies all went to really great places but it shows docking isn't necessary at all. I know a lot of vet places where they will not dock or declaw. I look for those vets.

There is a danger in messing around with genetics, too. Pugs used to be large dogs, but they have been bred to be small. Now, almost all pugs have breathing problems because their insides aren't small enough for their bodies.

Jacqui :love:

[Lord Loser]

Moby is a fascinating story. If there is one criticism I can lay at its feet is that the (spoiler warning, and I'm sure a whole bunch of you are glad I put this here)
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The frelling climax happens 2 pages before the damn book ends, so the entire book is a "fluffer" for those 2 or three pages.

[JadedLegend3]

Lord Loser, did you ever read Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein"? The sotry ends five chapters before the book does! LOL I'm not certain about the time when "Moby Dick" was written, but during Shelley's time, books came out a chapter at a time, so the authors got paid the more they wrote...so...they wrote more than was necessary, sometimes.

Jacqui :love:

[Frellster]

When I was young, I ran away from home and was sleeping on a hill in a park. I woke up to see two hispanic men standing over me, one pulled a knife. Then, out of nowhere, a growling, yellowish-tan blur, races up and attacks the knife weilding guy. They scream something in spanish and both ran off. Actually, the gut being attacked couldn't run off immidiatly as there was a dog attached to him. When he shook off the dog it sat down next to me. It was a pit bull; a fighting dog, with scars that evidenced bite marks from other dogs and longer scars along its chest. Its maw was coated in fresh blood, its ears and tail docked and it was solid muscle. I hugged it and set my chin on its flat head. It leaned into me and wagged its stubby tail. Then I started to cry. I'm actually crying again now, remembering. I came from a difficult household and that dog was the first creature I remember that was ever kind to me.

I'm not for or against docking. Certainly I'm against dog fights, but the sweetest angel I ever met was a fighting dog.

Sorry about the whole personal story thing - I was just reminded.

[JadedLegend3]

Aww!!! (((Frellster)))

Did you take him home with you?


Jacqui :love: