Grayza question (Season 4 spoilers) [Archive]

Ouroboros

11-24-2003, 11:18 PM

I don't think we’ve seen the last of Grayza. There's a lot of things about the way Braca took command that is very shall we say "not exactly squeaky clean". The regulation he quotes speaks of "incapacitence of judgement during multiple encounters under stress" and seems more intended to apply to a situation like that perpetrated by Captain Crais during the first season. It's not intended as a convenient escape hatch for people to avoid a single order they might not agree with personally.

“What do you mean my squad needs to run across the pass and draw the machine gun fire so the other guys can frag it!? That’s dangerous! I could die! I don’t care if some one’s gotta do it make it some one else! What do you mean you’re coming with me to, that doesn’t matter, and stop calling me a chickenshit. In accordance with regulation blah blah blah I hearby relieve...”

See were I’m going with this. I somehow don't envision the peacekeepers as being very concerned with how their soldiers feel about carrying out the order's they're given. Presumably if such an escape hatch regulation did actually exist despite this exist Braca would have quoted that one. He didn't so it's pretty fair to assume an ideal reg doesn't exist and he tried the best he could, defaulting to the multiple encounters under stress, probably figuring he could make up some real compelling "multiple encounters" by the time the hearing rolled around. Braca in my view largely exploited the crew's unwillingness to give their lives for reasons they were not informed of (Grayza's fault for not filling them in on the whole wormhole boy Crichton being pursued by the Scarran's info that Braca himself reported to her). This also fits perfectly with her disregard for the feelings of others. She simply expects the crew to do what they're told without any explanation, inspiring words or heartfelt commentary that one might expect from a captain asking his/her crew to so something they're probably not going to live through. Braca was betting that the officer of the deck and associated personnel would be willing to "overlook" the technicality in his regulation quoting in light of what was going on and what Grayza appeared to be doing. IE going batshit crazy for no apparent reason. He rolled the dice and he won a command carrier on the bet.

However.

Grayza seems to be a member of some sort of powerful political movement inside the Peacekeepers. She speaks of "changing things" in regards to the way they're governed when she talks to Ahkna in BHTB. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that word of what's gone on has reached sympathetic ears by now and that the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan.

This could get very interesting and very bad for Braca. He may have finally betrayed one person too many. Personally though I hope Scorpy gets to him first. It was way more personal for him and if anyone's gonna get old Miklo's head on a pike it deserves to be him.

Either way Braca finally getting his come up ins for all the various crap he’s pulled would be a nice end to the series.

ScorpSik

11-25-2003, 01:33 AM

*SHIPPERS, TURN AWAY NOW*

Rebecca Riggs once said she belived Grayza was carrying JC's child.
Personally, I think that'd be a veeeery interesting story - I would like to see other facets from Grayza (not just 'I use breasty-sweat to get my wicked way):D

Judith

11-25-2003, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by ScorpSik

Rebecca Riggs once said she belived Grayza was carrying JC's child.
Personally, I think that'd be a veeeery interesting story - I would like to see other facets from Grayza (not just 'I use breasty-sweat to get my wicked way):D

I'm a shipper, and that's very intriguing to me.

Personally, I don't think that they're done with Grayza. They could have just executed her, but they didn't. I think there might be a reason for that.

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I've heard people mention that Grayza might be a Nebari agent? Is there any evidence to support this this in any of the episodes, or is this because she has sort of a bluish/gray tint?

stellar

11-25-2003, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by Ouroboros
Grayza seems to be a member of some sort of powerful political movement inside the Peacekeepers. She speaks of "changing things" in regards to the way they're governed when she talks to Ahkna in BHTB. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that word of what's gone on has reached sympathetic ears by now and that the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan.

This could get very interesting and very bad for Braca. He may have finally betrayed one person too many. Personally though I hope Scorpy gets to him first. It was way more personal for him and if anyone's gonna get old Miklo's head on a pike it deserves to be him.

Either way Braca finally getting his come up ins for all the various crap he’s pulled would be a nice end to the series.

Spoilerly-doilerly-doo
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Let's not overlook the political capital Scorpius gains by being a critical component in decapitating the Scarran stronghold, i.e. greenhouse. Scorpius gets results. PK command must recognize that. He may be the deciding factor in what happens to Grayza - maybe he'll buy a nice leach and take HER for a walk.

stlscape

11-25-2003, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
(Possible) Spoiler?

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I've heard people mention that Grayza might be a Nebari agent? Is there any evidence to support this this in any of the episodes, or is this because she has sort of a bluish/gray tint?

This being Farscape, who knows what's in the twisted minds of TPTB; :D however, according to Rebecca Riggs, the difference in makeup was due to her regular makeup artist leaving partway through the season. On the other hand, Grayza *has* used the phrase "for the greater good" several times...

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 06:22 AM

Well, let's hope for a full season after the mini, then, because all of these potential plot elements deserve some time to develop.

But back to Grayza's status.... I am QUITE sure that Scorpius is going to get her into the Aurora Chair ASAP to find out JUST what she knows and JUST who is backing her. This gives him multiple advantages... he knows her hand, and the Aurora Chair experience isn't likely to leave her quite the same as she was before.

Look at Stark and Crais. Both of them seemed quite affected (unless Stark was NUTS to begin with). Crais actually seemed to be forced into self contemplation... which in combination with his fall from grace with the P.K.'s lead to his eventual redemption.

Scorpy MIGHT even try what John did with the Aurora Chair with Cockura (sp?) and ERASE some of her memories to make her less of a threat or less able to defend herself from Braca's charges.

But we are overlooking one very nasty prospect... an Unholy Alliance between Scorpius and Grayza.

stellar

11-25-2003, 06:35 AM

How many Aurora Chairs does Scorpius have? He lost one on the Gammick base and one on the Command Carrier. I don't think there's one on Grayza's ship. Presumably he could build one in short order, but the one on the base seemed like a prototype that he was calibrating using Stark.

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 06:41 AM

We already know there is an Aurora Chair aboard.

Grayza ordered the tech in "Promises" (the one who designed the Leviathan Killer missile that failed) to report to the Aurora Chair for questioning... on the very CC that they are aboard now.

stellar

11-25-2003, 07:09 AM

Are Aurora Chairs standard issue? Everybody and there mother seems to have one.

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 07:18 AM

I was thinking the same thing, stellar, when I watched the season 1 finale. Crais had to inform Scorpius that the Aurora Chair would kill a hynerian outright.

Crais knew something about it that Scorpy didn't... so it seems he must have had some experience in the matter. Perhaps every command carrier has one. The only character of captain grade or above that we've seen who DIDN'T apparently have one is Larraq from "A Bug's Life".

So looks like they are standard issue.

But WHY Scorpy wanted to take Rygel to his Gammak base for a session in HIS Aurora Chair rather than one that would presumably have been on Crais's CC I don't know. Perhaps all those modifications that he had been making meant his unit was Aurora Chair 2.0.

stellar

11-25-2003, 07:24 AM

I think that Crais knew about Rygel's physiology in general. Knowing that his body wouldn't tolerate the stress that the Aurora Chair would induce... of course he was tortured on the Zelbinion (but that's probably going down the road of minutia).

I don't think Crais had an Aurora Chair until Scorpius built one on there.

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 07:29 AM

I like your reasoning, stellar. I guess Grayza's ship had one because she was a Commandant, outranking a Captain. Plus she WAS ostensibly sent to figure out what was "going wrong" with Scorpy's efforts at the end of Season 3, so she would probably have insisted on having one along for the ride.

Which reminds me of a comment that Scorpy made in Nerve or The Hidden Memory about John. "He seems to be an exceptionally strong species."

HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR!

stellar

11-25-2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Which reminds me of a comment that Scorpy made in Nerve or The Hidden Memory about John. "He seems to be an exceptionally strong species."

HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR!

What else do you expect from a species who can impregnate, not only Sebaceans, but genetically mutated Sebaceans (LOTP). And... apparently pass on subconsious knowledge to the progeny. It would appear that Human Beings (or Terrans) have a Darwinian advantage over the rest of the galaxy. I.e. Humans are superior.

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 08:34 AM

And perhaps another mutated Sebacean as well... if Grayza is indeed pregnant. And of course, we don't have the very silly inability to handle heat. How are you gonna be the master race if you can't handle a little rise in the thermostat?

But back to Human Males... super-studs of the galaxy! Human Females, give thanks for our excess of mojo!

I feel a superiority dance coming on....:boogie:

Judith

11-25-2003, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by stellar

I don't think Crais had an Aurora Chair until Scorpius built one on there.

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Possibly...but...

Could that be what happened to Velorek? All we get on what happened to him is that Aeryn says he never confessed. But both John and Stark were able to withhold information from the Aurora Chair.

padmeskywalker

11-25-2003, 01:09 PM

Rebecca Riggs once said she belived Grayza was carrying JC's child.

??? I missed something apparently, what happend and which Ep???

If that's true, I don't think Aeryn would be too happy, and while we're at it, let's get Katrella out of the statue thing and bring them all in....

*cat fight starts*

Judith

11-25-2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by padmeskywalker

If that's true, I don't think Aeryn would be too happy, and while we're at it, let's get Katrella out of the statue thing and bring them all in....

*cat fight starts*

Oh dear...

Don't get the guys started, padme.

vhsiv

11-25-2003, 01:58 PM

This is all very interesting... And I don't think we should count Grayza out of the picture - if anyboy epitomizes a 'bad penny' on this show, it would be Grayza. As soon as she gets back to Command Central, she's going to be exonerated, and will start stapling up the 'Bounty' posters, for getting Braca (and his crew's) heads on a stick...

I anticipate that Braca is going to have to choose sides very quickly - which would plunge the show even further into 'Blake's 7' territory. With the Skarrens and the PKs going at it like gangbusters, where, exactly would that put our little crew of misfits? (Or the folks who now own the dehydrated bits of Aeryn and John...)

John's got the 'ultimate' weapon in his head, Grayza may or may not be a bioloid, and Braca's going to be a non-grata either way you cut the pie...

And Buddha, if Sikozu's said it twice, she's said it a thousand times - "Weak species!!" - so don't get too far ahead of yourself... perhaps Humans are just the less-evolved progentors, and thus the most adaptable.

padmeskywalker

11-25-2003, 03:08 PM

Judith, If I've thought of it, I'm sure the writers, producers, etc.. have...

BTW, John was NOT compatible w/ everyone. The's princes' finance from LATP (Kinda silly, since he's camp w/ Aeryn, wonder why...), and the two girls at the beginning that came up and kissed him, they weren't either... (What happened to Aeryn??? Do we know why she's like the only Sebecean that is???)

Antrobus

11-25-2003, 04:47 PM

Has anyone had any speculation on where Braca's loyalties might be by the end of "Bad Timing". I don't think he was too pleased with Scorpy's new playmate!

Braca has played some dangerous games on behalf of Scorpy- and then he gets replaced by Sikozu. Wouldn't make me to happy. Will he possibly betray Scorpy out of jealousy and take sides with Grayza. Or will he have to flee ala Natira!

I suspect there may be some power struggles within the PK hierarchy!

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 05:14 PM

Braca the Renegade? BUDDHA LIKE!

Originally posted by vhsiv
This is all very interesting... And I don't think we should count Grayza out of the picture... As soon as she gets back to Command Central, she's going to be exonerated, and will start stapling up the 'Bounty' posters, for getting Braca (and his crew's) heads on a stick...

I anticipate that Braca is going to have to choose sides very quickly - which would plunge the show even further into 'Blake's 7' territory.

John's got the 'ultimate' weapon in his head, Grayza may or may not be a bioloid, and Braca's going to be a non-grata either way you cut the pie...

And Buddha, if Sikozu's said it twice, she's said it a thousand times - "Weak species!!" ... perhaps Humans are just the less-evolved progentors, and thus the most adaptable.

Braca and the PK Carrier go renegade? I know both he AND Scorpy command considerable loyalty from the troops compared to the Crais or Grayza types, but that would be a really damned big move. Would central command go after them? It would take at least another CC, and the potential losses would be staggering. With the way things are going with the Scarrens, I think they would resort to anything other than a controntation of arms.

As to Sikozu's opinions... we've seen how narrow she can be at times (denying the shrinking process, etc.). She is, as Rygel has said, a child. Full of booklearning, but not far along on experience, or on what is really important. Scorpy keeps reminding her that she needs to give the Moyans more credit. I'll take Scorpy's experience over Sikozu's databank and deficient judgment any day.

Nicola

11-25-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Braca the Renegade? BUDDHA LIKE!

As to Sikozu's opinions... we've seen how narrow she can be at times (denying the shrinking process, etc.). She is, as Rygel has said, a child. Full of booklearning, but not far along on experience, or on what is really important. Scorpy keeps reminding her that she needs to give the Moyans more credit. I'll take Scorpy's experience over Sikozu's databank and deficient judgment any day.

How are bioloids created? How old is Sikozu chronologically? I mean, might she have been created 'adult sized' and just 'forcefed' information? Maybe she is only two or three cycles old. Might this be why she finds it difficult to accept that the 'booklearning' is not always right? Especially if the 'booklearning' far exceeds any real life experience she might have had?

Antrobus

11-25-2003, 05:32 PM

In Crichton Kicks she says that this is her first mission - or her first mission alone. I'd say that she was a recent creation.

Antrobus

11-25-2003, 05:33 PM

Braca the Renegade? BUDDHA LIKE!

Bet David Franklin could get into that too!

vhsiv

11-25-2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Braca the Renegade? BUDDHA LIKE! I think it's fairly inevitable.

Unless Braca's got some powerful relatives, I think he's headed for the sh!tz once Grayza gets back to Command Central. I think we're probably going to see a 3rd flank (a 4th flank - if Braca and Scorpy aren't together?) in the Skarren/PK war...

Braca is definitely running out of compariots if Grayza gets a walk...

The real question - can David Franklin do a 'Trip' (e.g. 'Enterprise') or even a 'Crais' if/when he takes command - he's only ever been a subordinate, even after Grayza promoted him.

What would Braca look like with a pony-tail...?

vhsiv

11-25-2003, 05:47 PM

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 06:40 PM

I'd bet on 'The Last Honorable Man'

Originally posted by vhsiv
Let me add - I'm sure that David Franklin could pull it off. The only question would be how he does it - would Braca go all 'dark', or would he play it as the ultimate soldier, the 'last honorable man', or something else altogether?

How would he shake-out from under Scorpy's shadow? If it happens, it'll be a triumph of character development, and put him at the opposite nd of the spectrum from where he started in 'Premiere'.
I don't remember him being there in the premier... I thought his first appearance was after the episode when Lt. Tieg(sp?) was killed by Crais. But I might have missed him... I'll have to watch those eps again over X-mas break.

But I think he's already shown his hand should he go renegade... he'd play the 'last honorable man' defining himself by what he admires in Scorpy (there are many things which he obviously does NOT admire... his dalliances with Natira and Sikozu being prime examples) and by being the antithesis of what he despised in Crais and Grayza.

My question is how he would relate to Crichton on his own at this point. After all, Crichton had a hand in destroying both the first CC AND in destroying Katrazi. Imagine how conflicted he would be? Does he just define him as an enemy, or a powerful potential ally?

Frell-n-Grok

11-25-2003, 07:16 PM

I hope so cause I think Rebecca Riggs is a better actress than some of the story line they gave her to do.

But seeing her all looney could be entertaining too!

Antrobus

11-25-2003, 07:23 PM

I think that all PKs have the ability to look out for their own interests when push comes to shove. Look at Crais's actions when he fell from grace - so to speak. No loyalty to the PKs there.

And Scorpius wasn't particularly loyal when he got pushed aside by Grayza. Now he's back in charge he's - well we really don't know what he is. Is Scorpius still in the PK ranks or has HE gone renegade? It wasn't clear in "Bad Timing" exactly what was going on on that Command Carrier.

Maybe Grayza will beg her way onto Moya.

Judith

11-25-2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Antrobus

Maybe Grayza will beg her way onto Moya.

I don't see that happening. Remember, she effectively raped John.

Gargunza

11-25-2003, 11:00 PM

Let me add - I'm sure that David Franklin could pull it off. The only question would be how he does it - would Braca go all 'dark', or would he play it as the ultimate soldier, the 'last honorable man', or something else altogether?

How would he shake-out from under Scorpy's shadow?

I don't know, guys...does anyone else smell SPINOFF???

(deep announcer voice)

Coming this fall...

David Franklin is...

BRACA.
SOLDIER. LEADER. LOVER. BAD-ASS.

You think it could work? I think it could work. I'm sure Franklin thinks it could work....

--Mattttt

"You know, I hear that Braca is one baaaaad mutha--"
"SHUT your mouth!"
"But I'm talkin' 'bout Braca!"

Darth Buddha

11-25-2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Gargunza
David Franklin is...

BRACA.
SOLDIER. LEADER. LOVER. BAD-ASS.

You think it could work? I think it could work. I'm sure Franklin thinks it could work....

--Mattttt
"You know, I hear that Braca is one baaaaad mutha--"
"SHUT your mouth!"
"But I'm talkin' 'bout Braca!"

Joking aside, that would make one hell of an episode... no Moyan's at all.

Or even a Bab5 movie set-up like "Third Space", "Call to Arms", or the like.

Ouroboros

11-25-2003, 11:40 PM

I think Braca's finally reached the point where he's realized. "Hey I don't need them anymore". When he took command from Grayza it was the first time he'd ever asserted himself over someone in power without having someone more powerful to back him up. Scorpius>Crais and Grayza>Scorpius. This time it was all about not giving the power and his loyalty to someone else but snatching that power for himself. Whether that turns out to have been a good move or his first step toward the edge of the cliff remains to be seen.

Either way I don't see Braca as being contented with going back to being an underling again.

He's got his own ship now, he's got a taste of real power, and I don't think for a second he's going to give that up for anyone. The fact that he saw Scorpius had "replaced" him with Sikozu (his new underling/protegee) just sealed it. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Scorpius and Braca interact now.

Speaking of which what is the deal with Scorpius as he relates to the Pks now?

If we look back to WWL we can safely assume he must have been condemned to death and stripped of rank following the loss of his command carrier. You don't get dragged around on a leash and shot by your underling if you're still a ranking officer. Does high command even know he's still alive? Has Braca told them? Is this something Braca could hold over Scorpy's head if he gets to uppity? We know Braca still hold the rank of captain, Crais was also a captain and Crais did outrank Scorpy. It was only because Sscorpy had his mivonks in his pocket (the renegade status) that Crais was forced to do everything he did. It seems Braca might very well outrank Scorpius now.

"You're still legally declared dead/a traitor I can do whatever I want with/to you. Also see “You don’t command this ship, I do.”"

Interesting that I hear of how Scorpius is likely to get praised for destroying Katratzi. What will befall Braca once high command learns that Grayza also intended to destroy Katratzi but was prevented from doing so By him, who choose instead to run away, ditching Scorpius in the process. Will Scorpius and Grayza ever get to chatting about this? Or about Braca's behavior in WWL. Will Braca try to keep Grayza drugged to prevent her telling Scorpius too much?

I would love to see some episodes that focused JUST on the PK characters. The interactions between Scorpius, Braca and Grayza have become one of the more interesting parts of the show for me and I really think they deserve more attention than they typically get, Braca and Grayza especially.

Darth Buddha

11-26-2003, 12:20 AM

Good points all, but Grayza was NOT about to destroy Katrazi. She indicated she knew as much... that this would be a suicide maneuver. Whether it was because she wanted to at least inflict some damage on the Scarren base or just to preserve her vanity (she did seem on the verge of nervous breakdown) I really can't call.

I still have to wonder if she is in fact a bioloid at that point. The nervous breakdown could have been a ruse... Say that a bioloid is instructed to act like Grayza, but to fail in all aspects, and deliver the CC to its destruction, while the real Grayza is imprisoned elsehwere (perhaps with John's child gestating...?).

John's arrival would be the wildcard... throwing off the Scarren plan and leaving the bioloid without instructions.

For all their arrogance, I doubt the Scarren's would have allowed that PK cruiser to get so close to their base if they weren't quite certain they could eliminate it while keeping their base intact.

In fact, I suspect destroying the CC was their an opitional plan from the beginning... get as much as they could, if they didn't like what they got, at least they wiped out a CC.

As to Braca, the line that HE is in command would be a great one!

ScorpSik

11-26-2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by Antrobus
In Crichton Kicks she says that this is her first mission - or her first mission alone. I'd say that she was a recent creation.

Gotta disagree.

The Organisation is a Scarran-run one. They would be veeery suss if brilliant adults suddenly began descending on them..... it makes far more sense that Kalish bioloids are created at birth - in a lab - but as babes.
Their knowledge is learned as others learn.

As for it bing her first mission, at the Organisation, only the highest achievers would be sent on missions designed to further the Scarran cause (as hers was), I dare say it takes a great many years to reach that level.
Scarrans wouldn't want just *any* of their conquerees off roaming the galaxy.

Her first mission could also have referred to the fact that maybe this is the first time she has gone on a mission she intends to sabotage for thhe resistance...?

With regard to Braca, watch the 4.5 DVD deleted scenes - Scorpy GIVES Braca the Command Carrier - so there's no 'jealosy' over status there.

Darth Buddha

11-26-2003, 01:37 AM

The Organisation?

Originally posted by ScorpSik
Gotta disagree.

The Organisation is a Scarran-run one. They would be veeery suss if brilliant adults suddenly began descending on them..... it makes far more sense that Kalish bioloids are created at birth - in a lab - but as babes.
Their knowledge is learned as others learn.

As for it bing her first mission, at the Organisation, only the highest achievers would be sent on missions designed to further the Scarran cause (as hers was), I dare say it takes a great many years to reach that level.
Scarrans wouldn't want just *any* of their conquerees off roaming the galaxy.

Her first mission could also have referred to the fact that maybe this is the first time she has gone on a mission she intends to sabotage for thhe resistance...?

I am intrigued... where comes this information on the organisation? I apparently missed something big!

Moreover, it does seem possible to do them grown up, as in the Aeryn-bioloid of "Bringing Home the Beacon".

Ouroboros

11-26-2003, 05:36 AM

For all their arrogance, I doubt the Scarren's would have allowed that PK cruiser to get so close to their base if they weren't quite certain they could eliminate it while keeping their base intact.

I don't know they did let Crichton land on their "secret" base unannounced and packing a live nuclear weapon. They also apparently didn't feel it necessary to place any automated defenses, guards or even frelling security cameras in their all important Crystherium chamber. Just one lonely little forcefield begging to be compromised by anyone who could get in the elevator or elevator shaft and work on it completely unmolested for god knows how long before someone finally somehow found him.

When Scorpy said Hubris was their greatest failing he was understating things severely.

Good points all, but Grayza was NOT about to destroy Katrazi. She indicated she knew as much... that this would be a suicide maneuver. Whether it was because she wanted to at least inflict some damage on the Scarren base or just to preserve her vanity (she did seem on the verge of nervous breakdown) I really can't call.

I considered the possibility of what basically amounted to a suicide attempt on her part and found it didn't really wash. We have dialog from the episode where she’s asking crewmembers if "target acquisitions are complete". Clearly she's got them aiming at something and working out some sort of firing pattern for her first strike. If your intent is simply to kill yourself why not just get on with it then? She instead waited for quite a while and even exchanged more bravado with Staleek to buy more time before she got around to actually ordering the attack she was planning. In fact if I re-call corectly she never even got that far before Braca swooped in to save the day. It seems pretty clear to me at least that she was going to put forth a genuine effort to take that thing out. I'd say by using a first strike to destroy the majority of the weapon emplacements facing the carrier. Something was taking time to identify and acquire as targets and I say that was it. Weapons emplacements, com gear, hangers other vital stuff. If she'd just wanted to provoke them into killing her all she needed to do was walk onto the bridge and say. "Ok who's ready to frag some Scarrans today, open fire!” I don’t think anyone could seriously put forward the idea that you’d need to spend 10-20 minutes "acquiring" Katratzi, a ~10km immobile target sitting right next to you, unless of course you want to hit it in certain special places. Katratzi can't move to re-orient itself so if she could pull off a good first strike and cripple most of their weapons on that side they'd be in for one hell of a pounding they couldn’t credibly answer. With what we already know from the war thread about Scarran tech being inferior to PK tech it doesn’t really seem unreasonable for a top of the line battleship to at least give Katratzi a damn good run for it's money. Adding in the possibility of a well executed first strike and the odds are looking even better.

I do believe she knew that her chances of survival were not good however. Even if she could get the station they’d be left damaged in Scarran territory. It’s possible that she eventually might have had to resort to a ramming attack to kill them both. Grayza decided, partly due to her realization of how foolhardy her peace quest had been no doubt, that she was obligated to do something about the upcoming war. Think of yourself as Grayza for a moment.

-You start out thinking the Scarrans can be reasoned with like any other normal intelligent race

-You get Scorpius out of the way because you think he’s basically a bit more Hitlerish toward them than even the PK’s should allow. As long as men like him exist you’re going to have a hard time convincing the Scarrans of your good intentions. You’re convinced cooler heads will prevail in the coming crisis.

-You find out Scorpius wormhole research wasn’t all a bunch of bullfrell and begin to incorporate it into your negotiating strategy. You find out the Scarrans aren’t really too much into things like “reason and negotiation”. You’ll need to take a harder stance with them and threaten them with wormhole weapons you don’t really have yet.

-You get a meeting with Ahkna the Scarran war minister

-You offer Ahkna a good deal and a little Luxon blood to keep her “dogs of war” off the back of your empire for a little while. As they say diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggy until you can find a rock, or in this case a wormhole.

-Rather than take your genuine offer Ahkna decides she’s going to screw around, abduct you and try to clone/torture you instead. You’re a fairly bright woman with military experience so you know by the way Pennoch acted on a single word from her that they were planning to screw you all along. Through some super human effort you don’t get that visibly pissed off or make and undo comments as to how Ahkna the fearsome war minister needs to wear enormous lifts just to come eye to eye with you. :p

-You manage to escape with the help of some traitor who’s name you later forget and for some reason you don’t blow the wussy little Styker Ahkna came in into oblivion with your command carrier. Perhaps you’re feeling charitable today; perhaps Braca got lost on the way back to the carrier giving Ahkna’s faster ship time to run away.

-Now you’ve got to drag your ass to Katratzi to meet with, guess who, that’s right good old Ahkna who tried to kidnap and torture you last week. You tell yourself it’s best not to make cracks about that hat just yet and think fondly of the new picture that adorns the dartboard in your quarters. Scorpy was getting kinda old with him being dead and all. Despite the obvious lack of trust and the fact they’ve never really taken the idea of peace seriously you still try to make an honest professional effort in getting the horse heads to sign the frelling treaty. Crichton bursts in; you once again restrain yourself from commenting on the quality of the Scarran security arrangements. “They can’t keep people in OR out”

-Crichton “dances on table tops”. as you will later remind him, and lays down some sort of ”self righteous” plan about handing over wormhole tech to the highest bidder, of which you will also later remind him.

-You play along with Crichton's game and seem to be in the lead with a PK pardon for John and his buddies you had to call in a lot of favors and wake up a lot of admirals to get. They’re going to be pissed at you later and you can pretty much count yourself out of next year’s annual PK barn dance. You lament about that unfortunate reality alone in your quarters.

-Braca comes to you and tells you the Scarrans are now pursuing Crichton through Katratzi. Reciting a litany of crude euphemisms for Scarran in your head you calmly collect yourself, realize this final audacity pretty much means your hopes for peace are dead, and vow to send the bastards to hell before they ever get a hold of Johnny boy and his head full of goodies. You figure that taking out the Scarran Emperor, War minister and their “secret base” which you may or may not know contains their special flowers (Scorpy knew it and he did presumably file reports right) is a chance you can’t in good conscience pass up. You’re the right person at the right time to maybe make a vital difference in the war and you’re going to do it rather than run away and regret it later. You and your crew might have to die to do it but since if the Scarrans come in force everyone’s going to die anyway, it hardly matters if you’re the first to get on the bus.

Before we move on. While you’re thinking of yourself as Grayza gentlemen here’s a skipping rope and a full length mirror, enjoy.:D

Alright enough of that. I see it pretty much as her coming around to realize the Scarrans were never going to be reasoned with and deciding she’d give them the war they wanted so badly. This was pretty much the episode the really got me into liking Grayza. I love how she was ready to throw down in Staleek’s face right on his home court with all his boys around.

The war’s got to start somewhere and I think dead Emperor and War Winister + secret base and special flowers in flames would be a pretty damn good place to start if you’re a PK. Certainly a lot better than run away and wait for them to come on their terms, which was Braca’s plan since he had no idea what Crichton was going to pull. If they did attack and did survive it would have made hers and Braca’s careers. They would have been freaking war heroes and everyone on that ship would have been proud to say, “I was there”. Even if they didn’t survive, and perhaps even more so if they didn’t, they would have been heroes to the entire Peacekeeper culture and likely anyone else who wanted to see some Scarran ass finally get kicked. This is of course assuming the attack succeeded, be it by conventional means or suicide ramming or whatever,* and that it would be enough to tip the scales and allow for the kicking of prodigious amounts of Scarran ass in the confusion immediately following the loss of their leadership.

I think the likelihood of both is pretty high.

*Even thought it’s irrelevant to establishing motive it’s interesting to note that with the nuke going off and crippling Katratzi Grayza and Braca would have survived for certain and would have been in a position to steal all the credit and pump their career through the stratophere. I wonder if Braca’s realized that yet? :lol

GARNET

11-26-2003, 06:11 AM

I think Braca had faith that Scorpius would get John out or kill him before the Scarran got him.
Also with John record, I think Braca believe John would escape as he never been held for long.

As for Grayza run at the planet, it did not seem to both the Scarran at all. They believe they could destroy the ship long before it could do any damage to the them or the flowers. They never would have allowed that close if it could do any real damage. Scarran's planet was not even destroy by John's bomb ( which only destroy the area which the flowers were) just damage and that bomb can do more damage I would think then the main guns on the Carrier could do from parking orbit.

So Grayza 's plan was the plan of a person who did anything to get what they wanted but lost everything in the end, so would rather died then be blame be supiors who want take out on them in the most pain and humiatlying ways

ScorpSik

11-26-2003, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
The Organisation?

I am intrigued... where comes this information on the organisation? I apparently missed something big!

Moreover, it does seem possible to do them grown up, as in the Aeryn-bioloid of "Bringing Home the Beacon".

A lot of digging + reading between the lines....Kalish behaviour + history etc:cool:

As for the Aeryn-loid - that was a Scarran 'clone'.
The reason I am sure this was vastly different to the Kalish ones + Sikozu, was considering Sikozu saw this living being gunned ruthlessly down in front of her + had to pull the beacon from the processor - if the Aerynloid *was* the same as Sikozu, it surely would've totally freaked Sikozu out.

The Kalish would consider it 'beneath them' to 'borrow' from Scarran technology, similarly, if the Kalish were the oneswho designed Scarran-loid tech, then they would ensure that their own bioloids were *far* superior to the Scarran ones.

BTW, Ourbouros, I am ROTFL!!! That was brilliant!!

I fear I've rambled + lost my thread, but there we go:D:D :D :D

Darth Buddha

11-26-2003, 06:41 AM

Well Constucted Deduction, Ouroboros....
Alternative Hypotheses and Permutations

That's a pretty good argument for Grayza, and while it gives her the benefit of the doubt, I have to admit it could be true. I've never seen her most favorable case presented so clearly.

I think there are a plethora of other less flattering interpretations as well, which I won't enumerate. Instead I'll just thow in some possilbe alternatives that don't necessarily cohere, but any one of which changes the outcome of the deductive chain.

Her ambition is clearly a very strong element. You would have to be if you willingly partook of a Heppel gland for the uses to which she puts them. Bordering on Crais's extremes, and only a little more controlled. If she IS Season 1 Crais crazy, then her actions are rather suspect. I suspect Crais might have ordered the same thing, prior to his extended introspection in the Aurora Chair and his fall from grace with the PK's. His ego would have driven him to it. If hers is up to that, then her actions might not truly be "for the greater good."

Alternately, if she DIDN'T have it placed there willingly, that would explain her need to now be dominant through sex. She's a hurt critter, and perhaps a little unstable when she no longer feels in control. That might lead to an attack when it would not be a wise idea.

Attacking Katrazi may or may not have been a good idea. We can't assess that without information. Dichotomize on that, and she's either very brave or bordering on lunacy.

She could alternately be just ill informed and naive on some levels. At the end of Season 3, Scorpius had been played by John and Crais. But she also knew that John had apparently whacked a Scarren Dreadnought. Scorpy and Grayza agreed on the fact that the PK's could NOT win an open war with the Scarrens. Scorpy was also right on two other things that Grayza did NOT see: the Scarrens could NOT be negotiated with, and wormholes WERE the only readily apparent solution we know of. She had bad information... and made some bad judgment calls. Instead of sueing for peace, she could have had Scorpy as her pet/prisoner/collaborator on her CC pursuing Crichton again from the start.

One last stickler... she knew the PK's couldn't win an all out war with the Scarrens. She said as much. By attacking Katrazi, she'd start that war without wormholes. Avoiding starting the war, regardless of cost, was probably the best bet.

That was my take on Braca's move... it not only would throw away a CC, it would start a war that he believed would be the end of the Sebacean race. Running away might not have been a particularly GOOD option, but in comparison to extermination, at least it left open the possibility of some other program woudl deliver his race before the fighting started (maybe the PK's are onto Black Hole weapons too.. there MUST be other weapons programs). Even if he were unaware, he might have just chosen what he saw as the lesser of two evils.

This doesn't cohere as a single option. It instead presents a number of permutations that cast Grayza's actions in a different light.

But I think the most probable state is that Grayza, having risen to power very quickly (she had to with the Heppel Gland) wasn't experienced enough with the Scarrens while Scorpy was (obviously), wasn't as savvy as she thought she was elsewhere (and should have known so after the abortive attempt at replacing her with a bioloid), and didn't have a grasp of some of the other factors going about in the wormhole world (demonstrate benificience to the Moyans, convince John to collaborate with the PK's on wormholes, EVEN if he still controlled them, not her, and she'd have come out way ahead).

So, an alternate interpretation might read like this:

In the end, faced with all her plans falling apart, and believing that SHE was the last hope of the Sebacean race, she chose to attack and start a war she knew would doom all Sebaceans because she believed they were doomed already. Better to go out wounding your enemy as much as possible if she were correct. Fight the good fight.

Even if true, she's not a devil, surely, but not a veneratedwar master either.

Darth Buddha

11-26-2003, 07:00 AM

I think I follow you, ScorpSik... Intriguing Theory

Originally posted by ScorpSik
A lot of digging + reading between the lines....Kalish behaviour + history etc:cool:

As for the Aeryn-loid - that was a Scarran 'clone'.
The reason I am sure this was vastly different to the Kalish ones + Sikozu, was considering Sikozu saw this living being gunned ruthlessly down in front of her + had to pull the beacon from the processor - if the Aerynloid *was* the same as Sikozu, it surely would've totally freaked Sikozu out.

The Kalish would consider it 'beneath them' to 'borrow' from Scarran technology, similarly, if the Kalish were the oneswho designed Scarran-loid tech, then they would ensure that their own bioloids were *far* superior to the Scarran ones.

Insofar as I follow you, I like your hypothesis a lot. I'm glad you cleared up who she was working for: before I thought you were saying Sikozu was a plant BY the Scarrens, which I couldn't fathom.

However, Sikozu was planted OUTSIDE the Scarren empire, or on its fringes (to develop a cover presumably -- and perhaps to mature). She could have been constructed as an adult and fed all sorts of data, but still be in need of experience to make it cohere.. so she need not neccesarily have been construced as an infant that grew. She could start as more of an adult infant. Not to be circular, but you surely wouldn't WANT an adult infant without a backstory with some reality to it to show up in Scarren territories. She'd be both suspicious, as you say, and quite likely a liability due to her inexperience.

DAMN THIS IS SHAPING UP TO BE A GOOD THREAD!

THANKS OUROBOROS AND SCORPSIK.
I'll check back this evening to see if it can possibly get any better!

vhsiv

11-26-2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Antrobus
Maybe Grayza will beg her way onto Moya. Whoa.
Düde - that's not funny. Knowing the calibre of the creators, they might figure out a way to do JUST THAT. Heck, Rockne already did it with Natira in his story 'Horizons'.

But you know, I think we're overdue for a MASSIVE betrayal.

Where's the Zhaan bioloid, already?

ScorpSik

11-26-2003, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
I think I follow you, ScorpSik... Intriguing Theory

She could have been constructed as an adult and fed all sorts of data, but still be in need of experience to make it cohere.. so she need not neccesarily have been construced as an infant that grew. She could start as more of an adult infant. ![/SIZE]

LOL, I getcha Deebs:cool:

I always felt though, listening to Sikozu talking about 'getting her life back', it sounded so sad - like she *did* have a past, friends, plans... and now, what has she got? The company of lunatics and criminals.
Lordy, talk about a bad day!!:cool: :whip:

*gotta be a tad excited, here...please excuse my cheer + the forest creatures who romp around my feet....Raelee liked the piccy I had Barb give her!! (it's the caricature in my sig)*

:thud: :shocked: :crazydance: :bounce:

Judith

11-26-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by ScorpSik

*gotta be a tad excited, here...please excuse my cheer + the forest creatures who romp around my feet....Raelee liked the piccy I had Barb give her!! (it's the caricature in my sig)*

You drew the Scorpy and Sikozou pics?

They are awesome!

ScorpSik

11-26-2003, 11:08 AM

Thanks Judith:D

Yeah, I've got all my stuff up on Karlsweb

http://starburstcards.com/KarlswebNewscape/Gallery/Gallery_ScorpSik.htm

Raelee + Wayne each now own their respective caricatures + Raelee, I'm afraid has a stack of prints *grin*

As for our lovely Grayza.... I feel quite sad for her that she's the most hated character.... I thought her stand on the carrier was an attempt at a dignified + noble end. To think of her left like Kate Petersen, gibbering in a cell in a sedated state....well....it's a shame.

(not that I condone any of her actions:D ):whip:

Darth Buddha

11-26-2003, 11:24 AM

Sikozu & Scorpius: The Romance

I've always been most fond of the Sikozu and Scorpy "romance" piece in your signature. It captures the "spirit" of the relationship. And Scorpy's genuine shock that she has not only formed an alliance with him but desires a relationship with him -- apparently with little in the way of ulterior motives.

Should she survive and continue to be sincere, she could go a long way toward his learning to be gentle in interpersonal relationships.

BUT WE'VE COVERED THAT IN ANOTHER THREAD ALREADY I THINK!

Grayza's Character

Villifying Grayza is part of the same limited mental process for those who paint characters either black or white depending on whether they are Scorpy worshippers or John idolators (I count nobody in the FMD Pariah Party as being so limited, by the way). ALL the characters are shades of gray. And MOST are actually trying to do their best as they see it, though some are blinded by self interest and ego (Crais - who redeemed himself in the end), or by an early inability to see the big picture sometimes (John - doing better with the input of a now mellowed Harvey) or the interpersonal picture (Scorpy - who is also making progress - perhaps from both his exposure to the Moyans AND Sikozu's interest in a relationship).

I see Grayza's character as no different. I'd say she exists somewhere between the bounds of Ouroboros's argument on her behalf (which while strong doesn't approach a whitewash of some of her nastier acts) and my own scenarios in which she's not all bad but potentially flawed and/or naive in some way, which is another complicated shade of gray. I'm open to darker arguments regarding her character, but not a simple good/evil dichotomy.

Gotta give the writers credit... they aren't going to reduce the world to black and white, prechewed, to give us children's book characters that we can feel unequivocally good or bad about.

Antrobus

11-26-2003, 02:41 PM

With regard to Braca, watch the 4.5 DVD deleted scenes - Scorpy GIVES Braca the Command Carrier - so there's no 'jealosy' over status there.

I don't think/feel that that means a whole lot. Scorpy has always worked along the lines of putting the person he's manipulating outfront and kept himself in the background until he's ready to pounce!

He may have "given" Braca the command carrier, but I'm sure Scorpy is in charge!

ScorpSik

11-26-2003, 03:53 PM

I believe Scorpy has a great deal of affection + trust for Braca - he is not manipulating him.
Scorpy *always* has definite reasons for his actions, and Braca has proven himself to be loyal, compassionate, and open-minded (he no longer sees Scorpy as an 'abomination' to PK purity, instead he sees Scorpy's cause......and Scorpy can see that withinn him.

Scorpy hardly seems the type to keep anyone he intends to use, so close.

l lScorpiusl l wrote a fabulous fic based on that deleted scene, which I think *really* nails Braca's sentiments...and Scorpy's:whip:

(glad you like the pic Deebs...I wanted to capture Scorpy's confusion + Sikozu's courage:D )

Antrobus

11-26-2003, 07:06 PM

Braca has proven himself to be loyal, compassionate, and open-minded

I don't think we know the character of Braca well enough to say that. Perhaps we know what Scorpius thinks of him, but what does Braca think of Scorpius.

On the surface we think we know - but do we? I don't think Braca's motivations are as clear cut as simply serving Scorpius. That may have been true in Season 2, but I wouldn't be so sure of it now.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens!

Ouroboros

11-26-2003, 10:42 PM

Attacking Katrazi may or may not have been a good idea. We can't assess that without information. Dichotomize on that, and she's either very brave or bordering on lunacy.

I'm sure it was a little bit of both.:D Oh I don't doubt for a minute that there was more than a little bit of "You've frelled with me for the LAST frelling time" mixed up in there but it didn't really impact on her decision in a negative way. She seemed to have been stewing it over both in the wardroom and later on the bridge when she's standing alone. In other words it wasn't a snap decision made in a moment of weakness. I'd imagine she was second-guessing herself later on the bridge, weighing the options, and came to the same conclusion I did. The war's got to start somewhere, and this looks like a good place for it. If her anger at the Scarrans gave her a bit of extra courage to carry it out than I won't hold it against her.

She could alternately be just ill informed and naive on some levels. At the end of Season 3, Scorpius had been played by John and Crais. But she also knew that John had apparently whacked a Scarren Dreadnought. Scorpy and Grayza agreed on the fact that the PK's could NOT win an open war with the Scarrens. Scorpy was also right on two other things that Grayza did NOT see: the Scarrens could NOT be negotiated with, and wormholes WERE the only readily apparent solution we know of. She had bad information... and made some bad judgment calls. Instead of sueing for peace, she could have had Scorpy as her pet/prisoner/collaborator on her CC pursuing Crichton again from the start.

Oh definitely. She came into things thinking the Scarrans could be reasoned with and that Scorpius was some sort of irrational extremist with a grudge against them and a stupid pipe dream for vengeance. From an outside perspective it'd hardly be an unreasonable conclusion to draw, especially after Scorpius' rabid frothing display of discontent when she visited his command carrier to inform him of her plans. She removed him and got on to doing things her way at first.

As time went on however she came to realize he wasn't full of crap after all and to her credit she did change her tactics with the Scarrans. Instead of asking them for peace she threatened them from an illusionary position of strength using, guess what, wormhole weapons. Never the less she was still convinced that they could be forced into backing off and that war was not needed. Then Katratzi happened, Crichton lets the cat out of the bag that she doesn't really have wormhole weapons and her last hand has just been shown. Unless she can win over Crichton and somehow escape from Katratzi the Scarrans will have no reason what so ever to hold back on their attack. Then she finds out they're chasing him through Katratzi, pissing all over the agreement and obliterating her last slim hope of talking them out of a war. It's on now and with Crichton dead or in Scarran custody there will be nothing to stop them from coming tomorrow, nothing at all. So on the eve of a war with a genocidal enemy she knows her side is unlikely to win she's got one chance to maybe kill the Scarran Emperor and War Minister and maybe that will be enough to give her people a better chance. Her duty as a Peacekeeper soldier was clear. They were coming, with the wormhole cat let out of the bag by our ever helpful Johnny boy they had no reason not to come anymore. She had a chance to cut the head off the snake and maybe do a lot of good at a crucial moment and she was going to do it whether she had to die in the process or not. It was damn admirable of her I'd say even if it was somewhat personal.

One last stickler... she knew the PK's couldn't win an all out war with the Scarrens. She said as much. By attacking Katrazi, she'd start that war without wormholes. Avoiding starting the war, regardless of cost, was probably the best bet.

Think I handled this, as well of most of what follows, above. Crichton blew her cold war game for her. If the Scarrans knew that the PKs didn't actually have a weapon yet but were working franticly to complete one... Well if you were Staleek how would this effect your attack schedule? I know I'd throw everything I had at them as soon as I could get on the phone with my generals. The only reason he ended up holding back was because his Crystherium got toasted shortly after confronting him with the decision of whether he really wanted to waste lives and ships taking territory he could never hope to hold anyway. He seemingly chose to bide his time so maybe he's not totally dense after all.

edited to add: also killing Stalleek and Ahkna who were present at the meeting may also have had the effect of killing the knowledge that there were no real wormhole weapons. Putting the cat back in the bag so to speak and further delaying the war.

Thing to remember is order of events and foreseen consequences. For example running away wouldn't matter if they knew Crichton was going to blow the crysth later. They didn't though so the decision to run away basically amounted to pissing away their only chance to maybe give the unstoppable juggernaught a real hard one in the nuts before it got to steamrolling over their civilization. Braca's actions were cowardly and unbefitting of a military officer. He knew about everything I outlined above and yet he choose to flee like a pussy rather than (maybe have to)give his life to grant his people a much improved chance of winning the now imminent war. Would taking out Katratzi have been enough? Would they even have succeeded if they tried? Who knows, but it certainly would have been better than nothing which was what Braca's tail tucking amounted to. They were obligated by honor and by their duty as soldiers to at least try. Like I said if the Scarrans win everyone dies anyway so it doesn't matter what order you get on the bus. If however your getting on first is going to maybe stop a bunch of innocent people from having to get on later than as a soldier who's taken the protection of his people as his responsibility, all aboard.

Villifying Grayza is part of the same limited mental process for those who paint characters either black or white depending on whether they are Scorpy worshippers or John idolators (I count nobody in the FMD Pariah Party as being so limited, by the way).

Oh well said old chap :D Thing with Grayza was she was “mean” to both of them so she got flak from both directions. Throw in the bandwagon riders and you’ve got a recipe for the most hated Farscape character.

I see Grayza largely as an amoral person with a ruthless ambition, a nice combo to be sure especially when you throw in some free mind altering drugs. For example her feeding the Luxons to the Scarrans was not honorable but she didn’t really care because the Luxons existed outside her realm of concern. Her concern was to avert the destruction of the peacekeeper race by any means necessary. A real ends justify the means type of girl. This also extends to her use of the Heppel gland as in her mind she only uses it “for the greater good” and the people she tramples over in the process aren’t important next to the grander goal’s she’s pursuing. Just listen to her line about squeamish good taste rendering certain weapons off limits. She pretty much states that anything is acceptable to get things done and that things like morality and honor are just silly self imposed handicaps a real professional doesn’t worry about. She won’t go out of her way to do “evil” things but she won’t hold back from doing them either should they prove necessary.

Also one final note about the deleted scenes. They were deleted for a reason and aren’t part of the Farscape canon. They’re just extra bonus treat features of what “might have been”. They might have been cut because they didn’t have time to air them or because the writers decided they didn’t like the characterization displayed in them or the implications it would have on future plotting. Since we have no way to tell why they were cut you can’t really use them in a character analysis.

vhsiv

11-27-2003, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by Ouroboros
I see Grayza largely as an amoral person with a ruthless ambition, a nice combo to be sure especially when you throw in some free mind altering drugs. <snip>...Her concern was to avert the destruction of the PK race by any means necessary. A real ends justify the means type of girl. This also extends to her use of the Heppel gland as in her mind she only uses it “for the greater good” and the people she tramples over in the process aren’t important next to the grander goal’s she’s pursuing. Quite the little Devil's advocate, aren't we Ouroboros?

But you seem to be assuming that Grayza is 'squarely' in the PK camp, and not working for some outside agent - I'd say that her 'for-the-greater-good's and her willingness to use sex as a weapon would place her in a Nebari paradigm. (SOMEBODY had to pay for the Heppel gland surgery...)

I personally find Grayza to be a delicious and complex character, but I don't doubt for a moment that her primary affiliations are HERSELF and HERS, unlike the ephemeral "King and Country" that we all assume the PKs work for. Have we ever seen ANY of the PK leadership? Ironically, Grayza's the closest thing we've got, and SHE seems to be a mole.

Somehow, I suspect that the PK leadership is some sort of National Socialist Party or Roman Senate writ large, conscripting unfortunates like Bialar and Tauvo Crais from its - *coughColoniescough* - "Occupied Territories".

Who's to say that Nebari supremacy might not be 'kinder and gentler'?

I wonder if DK, Rockne and Ricky are going to try to tackle the structure of feudalism in this miniseries, or just let it rest - it would be an interesting addition, but it could just as easily be left out...

Darth Buddha

11-27-2003, 10:43 AM

More than meets the eye

I agree with you, vhsiv, insofar as there is something else to her motives than what we have been shown to date.

I admire Ouroboros's theory for Grayza. It is a pretty good fit for the available data. But there are too many potential alternate conclusions from her actions... and just something about the way Rebecca Riggs portrayed the character.. that leads me to believe that we don't know her true motiviation. Mole, bioloid, or the like maybe. But even that might be too tame.

Her actions, while an argument can be made for a coherent face value motivation, still have an erratic element, a "residual error" where there is a difference between what you would predict and what she does. I just feel like a heroic argument or a purely villified argument are sort shoe-horned fits.

I've got this very strong suspicion that there is a MAJOR factor just offscreen, or behind Grayza's eyes that we haven't guessed.

Damn, I don't want a mini, I want a damned Season 5... and 6... because this sort of complexity can't be covered in just a mini, unless they gave us an hour-long "Incubator" on Grayza to tease it all out (that I'D do a pay per view to see in a minute!).

vhsiv

11-27-2003, 11:57 AM

All of this femme fatale talk and the BSG special last night has me thinking that 'Six' - the new Cylon arch-enemy - is going to come off as the hero of the show. Tricia Helfer comes off as the most endearing and interesting of the entire 28-something cast.

One has to wonder what gun was held to Olmos' head to get those decidedly flattering comments out of his mouth, after his public statements this past summer...

Darth Buddha

11-27-2003, 12:38 PM

Olmos's "Change of Heart"

Originally posted by vhsiv
One has to wonder what gun was held to Olmos' head to get those decidedly flattering comments out of his mouth, after his public statements this past summer...
The only thing I wonder is how much they threatened to sue him for...

NeuralClone

11-27-2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
We already know there is an Aurora Chair aboard.

Grayza ordered the tech in "Promises" (the one who designed the Leviathan Killer missile that failed) to report to the Aurora Chair for questioning... on the very CC that they are aboard now.

We've got better evidence than that! In the flashbacks at the beginning of WWL1, Grayza tortured Scorpius in an Aurora chair.

Since his first Aurora chair was probably destroyed along with his Gammack base, and the one on his command carrier with the command carrier ... I'd say they were standard Peacekeeper issue.

NeuralClone

11-27-2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by padmeskywalker
BTW, John was NOT compatible w/ everyone. The's princes' finance from LATP (Kinda silly, since he's camp w/ Aeryn, wonder why...), and the two girls at the beginning that came up and kissed him, they weren't either... (What happened to Aeryn??? Do we know why she's like the only Sebecean that is???)

Well Katralla's DNA was poisoned ... Aeryn had hers messed around with in "DNA Mad Scientist" (and I think she still has some residue Pilot's DNA in her, even though this hasn't been mentioned for a while).

Grayza ... if she is pregnant - well, I wonder if that heppel oil gland of hers has affected her DNA?

Actually, if that is the case, it seems that John is fertile with Sebaceans with defective DNA of some sort. (And it's just as well that John/Scorpius slash is never going to be canon, otherwise ... hmmm, better not go there! :shocked: )

NeuralClone

11-27-2003, 11:59 PM

So on the eve of a war with a genocidal enemy she knows her side is unlikely to win she's got one chance to maybe kill the Scarran Emperor and War Minister and maybe that will be enough to give her people a better chance. Her duty as a Peacekeeper soldier was clear. They were coming, with the wormhole cat let out of the bag by our ever helpful Johnny boy they had no reason not to come anymore. She had a chance to cut the head off the snake and maybe do a lot of good at a crucial moment and she was going to do it whether she had to die in the process or not. It was damn admirable of her I'd say even if it was somewhat personal.

All right, I haven't watched WSS recently, but - Grayza's thought processes have never struck me as being so entirely rational. She has always, from the moment she first threatened John and Scorpius in ItLD, struck me as someone who cannot bear to be crossed, let alone defeated. She seems to have a need to wipe out any source or reminder of humiliation - from trying to assassinate Scorpius in ItLD, to torturing him in WWL, to her use of her heppel oil gland on Crichton in the same episode - and her threat against anyone who would laugh or gossip about her when Crichton defeated her - to her seeming need to debase and use Braca.

My opinion is, that she wanted to destroy Katrazi, not as part of a far reaching strategy - but because it represented too many defeats. Ahkna, who captured her in BHtB, John resisting her "charms" and blowing her wormhole cover story, Scorpius, who was still alive - the place was crawling with humiliations she would have wanted blotted out.

Of course how she got that way, and the backstory it implies, would be fascinating. Perhaps it is all tied up with the story of her heppel oil gland?

Ouroboros

11-28-2003, 01:49 AM

Quite the little Devil's advocate, aren't we Ouroboros?

But you seem to be assuming that Grayza is 'squarely' in the PK camp, and not working for some outside agent - I'd say that her 'for-the-greater-good's and her willingness to use sex as a weapon would place her in a Nebari paradigm. (SOMEBODY had to pay for the Heppel gland surgery...)

I do devil's advocate quite well yes it’s been something of a life long thing with me.:D As for alternate speculation on her motivations I'm just using what we see. She might be working for the Nebs the Scarrans the Scovians or whatever but we've never seen it so this thread is going to end up pretty vague and open ended if we're going to try and account for allthe possibilities instead of just the ones we can reasonably deduce from what we directly saw take place. If you want a more self-interested approach think of it this way. She was trying to take over the Pk government and what good would that be if the PKs got destroyed. All her work up in flames on so on. I don't know she always seemed like a hard-line PK to me. She's never really done anything purposefully detrimental to their objectives or even hinted that she'd have the desire to. She's got a good spot in the PKs so it seems kinda funny that she of all people would want to throw that away for some far strung loyalty elsewhere. As you may or may not know I'm writing a fic and in the fic that's exactly what she does. She starts out as an undercover operative infiltrating the PKs but gets so high up in their organization and so cozy with all the power she has she stiffs her real employers and starts leading her cover life as though it were her real one.

I personally find Grayza to be a delicious and complex character, but I don't doubt for a moment that her primary affiliations are HERSELF and HERS, unlike the ephemeral "King and Country" that we all assume the PKs work for. Have we ever seen ANY of the PK leadership? Ironically, Grayza's the closest thing we've got, and SHE seems to be a mole.

I'd really like to see the Pk leadership I'd also like an explanation of where the rank of "Commandant" fits into their rank structure. I looked it up on google a while ago and the use of the rank seems to vary from organization to organization. Some places list it as simply "The commander of X" like the Commandant of the prison camp. Other places like the US Marine Corps have a "Commandant of the Marine Corps" who seems to be the commanding general of the entire Marine Corps. If someone could shed more light on what the rank has meant through history it'd be helpful. Right now I'm thinking of it as equal to Commodore which would be above Captain but below Admiral. Scorpius even called her "Commodore Grayza" in itLD. Alternatively she may be "Commandant of sector blah" the Commanding officer of a certain region of peacekeeper territory. She could also be Commandant of a branch of their organization, say the branch in charge of the finding non-violent solutions to alien contact. That being true her office would then likely be a 4x6 room in a basement somewhere. She'd also probably have one really old guy who forgot his name as her personal aid and several monkeys working on antiquated typewriters to take her dictation. Oh I can envision her mighty rise to power now. Late at night she would to practice her seduction skills by compelling the monkeys to stand in rows and beat the old guy with their typewriters for her amusement. "Soon my evil little primate puppets soon, now don't forget to work the kidneys!" Yes a fiendish new villain would soon spring from the depths of building number 1863-a, sublevel 14, section 471-g. The name on her door says Gray_a buddy and all will soon be made to tremble before that name.

Somehow, I suspect that the PK leadership is some sort of National Socialist Party or Roman Senate writ large, conscripting unfortunates like Bialar and Tauvo Crais from its - *coughColoniescough*

We know from Incubator that they'll let you "leave their protection" if you really want to so that puts them one up on most commies at least. I don't know about the Romans. They seem somewhat Spartan in their lifestyle to me as well. Their government’s weird, we've heard mention of some sort of ruling council, of a high command and of some other leadership body I can't readily recall the name of. Personally I'd say most of the power rests in high command (the body in charge of the military) and that they run the government in all but a formal technical sense. Perhaps the ruling council exists to create the illusion of a civilian elected government and thus better appease the population.

Who's to say that Nebari supremacy might not be 'kinder and gentler'?

Kinder and gentler in a "ministry of love" sort of way no doubt. The Nebari creep me out bigtime. I'd almost rather have the Scarrans than their freaky “we’re not going to hurt you we’re just going to rip your eyes out of your head while your conscious and erase all signs of your former identity mmkay?”.

I wonder if DK, Rockne and Ricky are going to try to tackle the structure of feudalism in this miniseries, or just let it rest - it would be an interesting addition, but it could just as easily be left out...

Hmm might be a little hard for a feudalistic society to survive next to so many unified empires. It would be interesting though to have say the Scarrans descend into feudalism after the Pk's destroy a lot of their planets with wormhole tech and with them much of their central government. I could see that happening, the typical Scarran thirst to be leader of the pack kicking in in a lot of different places at once. Throw in the rarity and necessity of Crystherium and you've got the makings of a never ending war in space.

Damn, I don't want a mini, I want a damned Season 5... and 6... because this sort of complexity can't be covered in just a mini, unless they gave us an hour-long "Incubator" on Grayza to tease it all out (that I'D do a pay per view to see in a minute!).

And to think people used to give me funny looks when I said Grayza could easily become one of the most interesting characters on the show.:D

One has to wonder what gun was held to Olmos' head to get those decidedly flattering comments out of his mouth, after his public statements this past summer...

Was he the guy that said "are there anymen on this show?". Most of the fan opinion I’ve heard about the new BSG has been rather less than flattering as well.

As for Grayza it's impossible to ever be able to prove what she was thinking. I've got my theories you've got yours until one of us learns to read the minds of fictional character's there's not much further we can go on that front. We can however prove if the actions she took were correct or not by analyzing the situation and the information available to her.

All the alternate theories for alternative motive and self interest accounted for, nothing I’ve heard today really seems to disagree with the fact that what she did, or tried to do at Katratzi was the right call to make to best save the PK’s bacon. We seem to just have different ideas on why she did it but not that doing it was wrong. So is that settled then?

Even assuming alternative loyalties or motivations, what Grayza attempted to do at Katratzi was the right call to make to best benefit the Peacekeeper cause?

fandom

11-28-2003, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by Ouroboros
Even assuming alternative loyalties or motivations, what Grayza attempted to do at Katratzi was the right call to make to best benefit the Peacekeeper cause? [/B]

I doubt it, the scarrans were so sure the attack was useless they were going to let her fire first, and the battle-hardened peacekeepers on the command carrier freaked at the idea, the very first time we have seen them balk from a fight.

If I had to build such an important base, I would make sure it could withstand the attack of, at least, a couple of enemy ships. Like in ds9, at the beginning of the fourth season they are attacked by a klingon fleet and they destroy quite a few birds of prey. What I don't remember is whether there were any scarran dreadnoughts around Katratzi, if there were the attack was even crazier.

On the other hand, Bracca is likely to be court marshalled for his actions, with the outcome depending on what the peacekeeper tradition in those cases is and the political standing of Grayza and Scorpius after the incident.

ScorpSik

11-28-2003, 07:10 AM

So Katratzi was supposed to be a secret base, right........
o.........k..........

Except that *everyone* knew where it was + how to get in. hmmmmm......riiiiiiiight.......

Natira's depository was harder to get into! Perhaps the Scarrans should've put *her* in charge of security....:ewink:

Darth Buddha

11-28-2003, 08:00 AM

Weaknesses in Plot and Continuity

Originally posted by ScorpSik
So Katratzi was supposed to be a secret base, right........
o.........k..........

Except that *everyone* knew where it was + how to get in. hmmmmm......riiiiiiiight.......

I thought that was a little forced too. Those last four or five episodes seemed a little TOO rushed even for Farscape, and I think plot holes like that demonstrate that pretty well.

Was this characteristic of Kemper's style, I wonder? A good guy to have on your project, for sure, but perhaps not the guy to have t the helm? (Can I even ask that without being cast as a Pisher?)

fandom

11-28-2003, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by ScorpSik
Except that *everyone* knew where it was + how to get in. k:

Getting in is very simple, you get in orbit and ask for permission, that what Grayza and the moyans did, not very heroic but effective.

Still, using the base to meet with the peacekeepers was stupid, specially after what Sikuzo said in A contellation of doubt:

"As stupid as you must think them, the Scarrans have managed to build one of the most extensive empires in the galaxy in part... and I shall repeat this because it does not seem to sink in... by not advertising the location of their secret bases."

Stupid, stupid scarrans!

Darth Buddha

11-28-2003, 08:38 AM

EXCELLENT QUOTE!

That cinches it in my mind, fandom, thanks for the refresher.

The Scarren's actions really were sort of non-sequitir. Even if they invited her there knowing that PK high command was not receiving updates (we don't know that, I'm guessing) and they planned to destroy them no matter what (then why the ruse?), they THEN wouldn't wait for the CC to fire first!

The ONLY out I can see is that the base WAS secret, but that the "arrogant" Scarren's now felt secure enough that they didn't care who knew anymore.

Anyone else see another out I'm missing?

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
I thought that was a little forced too. Those last four or five episodes seemed a little TOO rushed even for Farscape, and I think plot holes like that demonstrate that pretty well.

Was this characteristic of Kemper's style, I wonder? A good guy to have on your project, for sure, but perhaps not the guy to have at the helm? (Can I even ask that without being cast as a Pisher?) Pisher... uh, Buddha - C'mon now - there were forces at work on the show that we still know little about - who's to say that several scripts weren't lain out, that provided *perfect* continuity before the Michael Jackson brain-trust got a look at the scripts, and decided they needed some tweaking or padding - like the request for MORE stand-alone episodes? Season 4 is KNOWN to have started out on uneven footing b/c of the 'need' to re-introduce each of the characters one at a time.

I too felt that towards the end of the season things got a bit rushed - like it was too easy for them to find Aeryn. But wasn't it Sikozu!Stark (on bizarro!Moya) that they got Katrazi's location from? - that information was just not available in the 'normal' UT-timeline. So it's not a failure of security or consistency on the wrtiter's part - you and fandom just need to rewatch 'Prayer'... I mean that was half the point of the entire episode...

Darth Buddha

11-28-2003, 09:25 AM

Outside Meddling!

Originally posted by vhsiv
....Season 4 is KNOWN to have started out on uneven footing b/c of the 'need' to re-introduce each of the characters one at a time.
That slipped my mind for a moment... and it does explain the rushed element quite handily.

Katrazi and Grayza both seemed to get short shrift in this rush.

And you know, it really was a silly idea for Skiffy to request the re-introduction... though I don't recall where I read that was their request. Far better would have been to have some timely reruns of earlier seasons. I mean, Farscape would HAVE to do better than "Knight Rider" at 6:00 PM, wouldn't it?

I for one am so SICK of David Hasselhoff!

BlackThorn

11-28-2003, 09:32 AM

It was mentioned in the farewell to Farscape in SFX magazine. I still have the scans someone posted a while ago. That was where it was also mentioned that Skiffy wanted Farscape to be more like South Park

I got the feeling the latter half of season four seemed rushed because they were trying to fit in a seaon's worth of plot into a shorter period of time. If they hadn't been pushed into reintroducing the characters and more stand-alone episodes, they probably would have had more room to play with the arc. But without that extra time, they had to condense a few things to still hit the season cliffhanger on time before launching into the second half of the arc in season 5.

Just my guess.

Darth Buddha

11-28-2003, 10:01 AM

A Pretty Good Guess!

I'd call that a pretty good informed guess, Blackthorn.

Refining My Grayza Alternate Theory

Ouroboros's arguments are really starting to sound good to me. But I'm actually to the point that I'm wondering if it is truly an either or situation...

I'm sold that the Scarrens felt certain they could annihilate Grayza's Command Carrier with impunity... which Braca seemed to second. To dichotomize: If true, then Grayza had lost it. If not, then Grayza was being heroic.

But a dichotomy probably isn't appropriate here... I'm thinking that it was really a combination of the two. Grayza may well have thought that they could cripple Katrazi, but the reality may have been quite different.

Back to my bad premises line of thought.

Grayza's decuctions probably weren't all that bad given the evidence she had available. Based on her agenda AND the stunning loss of a Command Carrier to the Wormhole Project, she assumed those who she was opposing inside the PK's, especially Scorpy, had it 100% wrong. Clearly, SOMETHING had to go majorly wrong! I mean a lost Gammak Base and a lost Command Carrier certainly don't say that everything is Okey Dokey!

So, in her mind, wormholes are a dud, and the thought that the Scarren's can't be trusted/can't be defeated by force of arms was also dismissed. Explains the data she can see at first, and fits her agenda.

But, in typical Farscape fashion, things were a lot more complicated than that!

She finds out Wormholes are real and dangerous. She frells up and winds up played by Crichton rather than playing him. She frells up and nearly gets replaced by a bioloid. But she STILL goes to Katrazi! She's not stupid, but she is a little obsessive. With so many errors, you have to be surprised that she is still so confident... or maybe it is a need to appear in command even when she hasn't got a clue. But that seems to be part of the PK Command mystique... common to Durkha, Crais, Scorpy, and Grayza as well.

Finally, things at Katrazi go completely out of her control. After having so many of her assumptions yanked out from under her all at once, Grayza WAS off balance, and hadn't really had a chance to examine all her outdated premises. Mabye this was enhanced by a need to be "in command' and not appear weak (I'm sure Crais or even Durkha would have felt similarly).

So when in doubt, she decides to attack. Not cowardly by ANY stretch. Heroic within her worldview. Her position was not unreasonable given the information she had, but it arguably was the wrong call. Given some more time to integrate and update all her premises, she might have made a different call.

Under this hypothesis, Braca wasn't really "superior" in any way, he was just far better informed and had a much better idea of what was really going on because he had been on ground zero for most of the big moves in this sector for four years now... whether Crais, Scorpy, or Grayza were calling the shots.

He'd been brought up to speed on the Scarren's by Scorpy, Grayza hadn't. He had a much better idea what was going on with Wormholes. As a good captain, he may well have been assessing the military situation should things come to blows with far greater scrutiny than Grayza had time or opportunity to examine while she was busy playing chicken with the Scarrens and politics with John.

I realize I'm splitting the difference here, but that just seems to fit more of the data. BOTH theories can be true simultaneously.

This sort of bad information situation isn't new. Scorpy has made plently of mistakes that he probably wouldn't have with better information. This is a return to my Harvey argument... what Harvey is O.K. with is based on both Scorpy's information AND John's information -- so when Harvey disagrees with Scorpy, then Scorpy probably has it wrong.

Actually, the one with the best information of all in this is John.. with both his information and Scorpy's via Harvey. Should Grayza somehow wind up on Moya, that information could probably be enhanced even further... if she were being "cooperative".

fandom

11-28-2003, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by vhsiv
But wasn't it Sikozu!Stark (on bizarro!Moya) that they got Katrazi's location from?

Indeed you are right, John worked hard to get to know where Katratzi is, so it is no wonder they could get there.

But the peacekeepers didn't know where it was, I don't remenber the episode in which they tell us, but is about then when we learn that Scorpius was interrogating Stark precisely to learn as much as possible about Katratzi.

So, the problem I had was, why had the scarrans told the peacekeepers about the base in Katratzi to meet there? They revealed a top secret for no reason.

Since my last post though I have thought about an explanation, maybe Katratzi was the only base close enough to peacekeeper territory that could resist the attack of a command carrier without a problem. So that, if the peacekeepers broke the truce and tried to kill the emperor and part of the goverment, nothing would happen.

And they had no reason to believe the peacekeepers knew about the greenhouse there, the kalish didn't, so they didn't realise the big mistake they were making.

At least, I think it makes sense, but still Sikuzo was overstimating the scarrans with that qoute.

NeuralClone

11-28-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by fandom
Getting in is very simple, you get in orbit and ask for permission, that what Grayza and the moyans did, not very heroic but effective.

Um, but how did Grayza know where to go to get in orbit? Scorpy, our ex-top level intelligence operative/scientist and resident Scarran expert, had never even heard of Katrazi. Nor had Sikozu, who comes from Scarran space. Scorpius and John had to go to an unrealised reality to gain the location of Katrazi. Yet Grayza just turns up on the front doorstep and rings the bell?

Vhsiv writes:

Pisher... uh, Buddha - C'mon now - there were forces at work on the show that we still know little about - who's to say that several scripts weren't lain out, that provided *perfect* continuity before the Michael Jackson brain-trust got a look at the scripts, and decided they needed some tweaking or padding - like the request for MORE stand-alone episodes? Season 4 is KNOWN to have started out on uneven footing b/c of the 'need' to re-introduce each of the characters one at a time.

Um, well I'm going to be a bit of a pisher too ... you know, I had a lot of problems with season 4, and alas, I can't lay the blame for all of them on the SciFi execs (much as I'd like to!) There was too much sloppy writing - the location of Katrazi being a case in point. But there were problems with plots that sprang out of nowhere, like the flowers (three years chasing wormholes, and it all comes down to flowers?) and plots that went nowhere (like the tags to CoD and Prayer) and punches that were pulled - like Evil Stark and Scorpius the Scarran Spy. The scripts needed a good beta-read.

I've read a couple of interviews with Wayne Pygram where he mentioned that parts of the scripts weren't being written until the night before they were shot - and he had no clue as to the way his character was headed in the 4th season, so he couldn't lay down little clues in his acting. Melissa Jaffer said similiar things in her interview with TV Zone. So - my simplified take on it is, DK has the free-wheeling inventiveness which gave Farscape so much of its zest. But it would appear to have been Rockne who gave the show its "ballast" which made it all ride smoothly. And - apart from anything the SciFi execs did in season 4 - the show suffered from an excess of good (and bad) ideas and little or no follow-through.

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 02:19 PM

pt.1

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 02:20 PM

pt.2

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 02:21 PM

pt. 3

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 02:21 PM

pt. 4

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 02:22 PM

pt. 5

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 02:22 PM

pt. 6

Darth Buddha

11-28-2003, 02:56 PM

Both sides of the coin again...

Great article, vhsiv! Thanks!

Well, NeuralClone and vhsiv had pretty much informed this issue enough for me to think that I've gotten some more confirmation on how things were running a little rough, and some good background on WHY.

I've been wondering just what the hell was behind all the anti-Kemper sentiment. Those quotes from Pygram (which I've seen elsewhere) would go a long way in explaining that. I'm sure Pygram wasn't being malicioius, but I would be wondering what the hell in the same circumstance myself.

But that article clears up the what the hell... Kemper was clearly up against it with Skiffy. Like Stargate or South Park indeed. Cram in a reintroduction of all the characters too. Good grief.

We'll never know what Kemper intended... he might very likely have had a very good plan mapped out, and then had to figure out a way to do it all in less to please his idiotic sponsors. In fact, I'd BET he had it all mapped out and then had it all thrown out the window on him.

I doubt he'd discuss that with the cast and fans BEFORE the cancellation was noted... again to please his sponsors, AND because damn, that'd just be too humiliating to share! This reconciles a lot of questions I had.

Whether someone else could have handled it better, there's no way to know... but given this information, my heart goes out to Kemper. Can you imagine? I mean, you'd probably have a pretty good idea that some of the threads were being missed for lack of time, or that certain cut corners didn't make as much sense as the backstory you had planned.

To compromise your vision to try to please Skiffy AND THEN be cancelled. I'd be bitter as hell.

vhsiv

11-28-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by DB
To compromise your vision to try to please Skiffy AND THEN be cancelled. I'd be bitter as hell... That would be a kick in the pants - and NOT the backside, either...

Darth Buddha

11-28-2003, 03:17 PM

A very frelling good thread

This is not only one of the best character analysis thread I've seen in months, it is the best examination of Season 4 strengths and weaknesses I've seen on this board EVER.

We can discuss Pisher's objections... civilly no less.

I agree with NerualClone that the loose ends closing up Season 4 were atypical. I can see where Pygram and others who questioned Kemper's actions may well have had basis in what they actually saw on the ground.

I can also see where Kemper was shafted... TWICE, and that his performance was compromised by impossible demands from Skiffy.

I differ with you NeuralClone only in this. I CAN lay the lion's share of responsibility on Skiffy's doormat. However, I'm always open to additional info.

BlackThorn

11-28-2003, 03:18 PM

That's why I've never blamed Kemper for the inconsistencies in Season 4. I know from my own experience that, when writing a continuing arc, it can become very tricky to do it right, more so when other people are stepping in. You change one thing, and it can lead to a dozen other changes, which all lead to more changes. Trying to keep track of it all can be difficult, and knowing they were doing it on a strict schedule, that would be even harder.

I actually think they did very well for what they were trying to do, considering what they were up against. Was it perfect? No. But it was still good in my book.

Plus I take that there was supposed to be a fifth season into account for some of the dropped threads. We don't necessarily know if all of those threads were actually dropped or if they were intended to lead into things for Season 5. We may never know.

NeuralClone

11-28-2003, 03:33 PM

Oh, I'm not denying that SciFii well and truly had a hand in the frell-up. Though I have to say that the first half of season 4 was some of the least accessible Farscape I have watched - even long established fans were going "What the heck?" during episodes like WWL. :eh: If they were going for the broadest possible appeal, I would have expected something a bit more like ... Stargate. Or Andromeda.

Anyway, to quote Rockne's TV Zone interview:

"If I may, there were aspects of Season Four which made me scratch my head, but again, I wasn't part of it, so I really can't complain." Well maybe a little. But that's not a topic the writer will discuss other than offering a few oblique and non-committal hints. "Believe me, I don't really want to s**t on the folks who worked really hard on Season Four. As I understand it, the intent or hope for Season Four was to really broaden out the appeal of the show and make it more accessible for a wider audience. I think that was the intent of bringing in this other female character that was an opportunity because she was new, to re-explain things about the show because there was a new character they could tell things about. But in the maelstrom of writing a season of the series (which I know well, believe me!) I think that may have got lost a little."

Anyway, to get back to my original point, what I was complaining of was a ... lack of organisation in the writing, which can't entirely be blamed on SciFi, unless they were micromanaging every single episode. :goof: And though I don't want to s**t on DK, I'm afraid I don't take him at quite as high a valuation as a lot of fans probably because I prefer Rockne's vision of the show...

fandom

11-28-2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by NeuralClone
Um, but how did Grayza know where to go to get in orbit? Scorpy, our ex-top level intelligence operative/scientist and resident Scarran expert, had never even heard of Katrazi.

Because when the scarrans told Grayza they agreed to the meeting they send her directions.

And Scorpy had indeed heard about Katratzi, it was the reason he was interrogating Stark, but since Stark didn't know how to get there, Scorpy only knew the interior of the place. Remember how surprised he was that the scarrans had added the defense shield?

Ouroboros

11-29-2003, 12:22 AM

"As stupid as you must think them, the Scarrans have managed to build one of the most extensive empires in the galaxy in part... and I shall repeat this because it does not seem to sink in... by not advertising the location of their secret bases."

Sikozu might say this but do we trust her to know what she talking about? We did afterall see the exact opposite of what she's describing perpetrated by the Scarran Emperor and war minister themselves. They didn't just advertise it, they advertised it to an enemy flag officer and invited her to come over in her planet killing warship! The place where not just both of them but also their crystherium would be present at the same time.

I think I'll stick with thinking of them as stupid:D Maybe Staleek and Ahkna are especially stupid but the fact that Sikozu says it doesn't normally happen certainly doesn't change what we all saw happen on our screens.

I'm sold that the Scarrens felt certain they could annihilate Grayza's Command Carrier with impunity... which Braca seemed to second. To dichotomize: If true, then Grayza had lost it. If not, then Grayza was being heroic.

But a dichotomy probably isn't appropriate here... I'm thinking that it was really a combination of the two. Grayza may well have thought that they could cripple Katrazi, but the reality may have been quite different.

Sounds more or less good to me. We know Staleek thought he wasn't going to have a problem the question is to we believe his bravado. We also know Staleek let the guy who smoked a Scarran dreadnought walk around with a nuke unsupervised and land without being searched after he suddenly showed up at one of the most secret bases in the empire right as one of the most important leadership negotiations was starting. This would be a bit like if Bush allowed Bin Laden to land outside of Norad while he was meeting with the UN, stroll inside the facility without being searched or confronted and burst right into the room where the negotiations were taking place with a nuclear bomb strapped to his chest. Sometimes giving it a real world analogy better gets across what I mean when I say jaw dropping arrogance and incompetence.

The point is if anyone here's using personal arrogance or daftness to exaggerate their chances I don't think it's most likely to be Grayza.

She finds out Wormholes are real and dangerous. She frells up and winds up played by Crichton rather than playing him. She frells up and nearly gets replaced by a bioloid. But she STILL goes to Katrazi! She's not stupid, but she is a little obsessive. With so many errors, you have to be surprised that she is still so confident...

She more or less had to go to Katratzi and keep trying. With Scorpius dead as far as she knows and the wormhole project not looking at any breakthroughs any time soon peace really was the only option left for the Pks. The other option would be a preemptive strike and she tried that to when the opportunity presented itself and it was already clear peace was never going to work.

Finally, things at Katrazi go completely out of her control. After having so many of her assumptions yanked out from under her all at once, Grayza WAS off balance, and hadn't really had a chance to examine all her outdated premises.

Going to have to disagree here. I think by this point she'd already come to see the Scarrans more or less as they really were and was in the "why did I kill Scorpius" phase of realizing she'd been wrong all along. She was rather upset about something in her quarters before Braca came in and I'd venture this was it. The realization that her ill informed meddling a year ago may in fact have robbed her people of the best chance they had. She'd come to know better since but that couldn't undo what she'd already done and she knew it. She was already using the cold war game plan on Ahkna in BHTB still trying to push that idea and hopefully vindicate her mounting self doubt. Katratzi was really just the last nail in the coffin of her hopes for peace. She dragged herself there hoping somehow maybe it'd still work, maybe Staleek would be more susceptible but he wasn't so she eventually just said frell it and for a combination of all the various reasons I've gone over decided to go with the direct approach. Like I touched on before the realization of the damage caused by her meddling likely played a factor in her willingness to risk death to take the Scarran leadership out with her. She likely felt she "owed" something to every Sebecean her miscalculations had screwed over.

Under this hypothesis, Braca wasn't really "superior" in any way, he was just far better informed and had a much better idea of what was really going on because he had been on ground zero for most of the big moves in this sector for four years now... whether Crais, Scorpy, or Grayza were calling the shots.

If we assume that this is true then it just damns him even further. If he really did know so much about the Scarran psyche and modus operendi than he especially should have known what they were going to do when the last thing holding them back was revealed as a lie. The fact he still chose to run away rather than try and do something about it looks even worse in light of this.

He'd been brought up to speed on the Scarren's by Scorpy, Grayza hadn't.

Once again if this is true and he knew everything Scorpy knew about the flowers and the name of the place they were located....

As a good captain, he may well have been assessing the military situation should things come to blows with far greater scrutiny than Grayza had time or opportunity to examine while she was busy playing chicken with the Scarrens and politics with John.

Thing to remember though is Braca is not a real Captain let alone a good one. He's a Lieutenant wearing a Captain's hat that Grayza gave him for free. He has no solo command experience what so ever let alone any experience in wide reaching war strategy. He may now be a Captain in name but in reality he's still a junior officer whose career has thus far consisted of being a lackey to other officers with more experience and ability than him. He skipped over an entire rank Bracket (Commander Javio second to Scorpius from Nerve remember) when Grayza promoted him, which nicely explains why he was so happy about it.

But the peacekeepers didn't know where it was, I don't remenber the episode in which they tell us, but is about then when we learn that Scorpius was interrogating Stark precisely to learn as much as possible about Katratzi.

Scorpius knew of Katratzi and its importance in regard to the crystherium but not of its location. He got this info from Stark when he was chairing him circa Nerve. He got the location from the UR later.

Um, but how did Grayza know where to go to get in orbit? Scorpy, our ex-top level intelligence operative/scientist and resident Scarran expert, had never even heard of Katrazi.

See above.

There was too much sloppy writing - the location of Katrazi being a case in point. But there were problems with plots that sprang out of nowhere, like the flowers (three years chasing wormholes, and it all comes down to flowers?) and plots that went nowhere (like the tags to CoD and Prayer) and punches that were pulled - like Evil Stark and Scorpius the Scarran Spy. The scripts needed a good beta-read.

I agree I also felt there were a lot of wasted episodes that could have been put to better use developing the 3 new characters they introduced. Coup by clam, perfect murder and lava would give one ep to each of them and I certainly wouldn't miss the originals.

I think though that the sci-fi channel’s meddling with the creative direction of the show is largely responsible for a lot of it. You don't work well when you've got people breathing down your neck. You especially don't work well when the people doing the brething and the meddling don't know what they're doing to the extent they think Tremors the series is a good place to spend company money. So how'd it feel when the re-runs of the show you cancelled out performed all your vaunted new product bumblefucks?

From that article it sounds like the Sci-fi channel was wanting to turn Farscape into the new Andromeda!:fear:

I certainly hope they don't get to air the miniseries they do not deserve it.

ScorpSik

11-29-2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Ouroboros
Sikozu might say this but do we trust her to know what she talking about? We did afterall see the exact opposite of what she's describing perpetrated by the Scarran Emperor and war minister themselves.

Sikozu does indeed sound misinformed about this - but don't forget, she came from a Scarran-dominated world. The Scarrans would do their utmost to instill fear + loyalty into the Kalish, so it'd be more impressive if they said maintained the illusion that Katratzi was some fortress.....er as opposed to
'Visit Katratzi! Located just off the moon of Trilass. Kids and PK's can come in for free. Tickets to see the Emperor sold seperately. Open 9 - 5, seven days a week! Half price on Charrid bathing day!':rollin:

Burn Rourk

12-04-2003, 04:23 PM

Let's say Grayza is carrying Crichton's baby. Once it's born, he can't live with the thought that his child is being raised by that Peacekeeper witch. He and Moya's crew plan a kidnapping raid on her Command Carrier that rivals their Shadow Depository robbery. After their mission is a success, and Moya's crew safely starbursts away with the baby, not to mention Grayza's nova-level fury locked in total pursuit, they discover through a medical scan that the baby's daddy is actually Bracca.

padmeskywalker

12-04-2003, 04:35 PM

Complicated, complicated.....

ScorpSik

12-04-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Burn Rourk
Let's say Grayza is carrying Crichton's baby. Once it's born, he can't live with the thought that his child is being raised by that Peacekeeper witch. .

Not a Grayza fan, then?:D

I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for Grayza....she's hated by shippers AND Scorpy fans.......poor woman:ewink:

Ouroboros

12-04-2003, 10:56 PM

Let's say Grayza is carrying Crichton's baby. Once it's born, he can't live with the thought that his child is being raised by that Peacekeeper witch. He and Moya's crew plan a kidnapping raid on her Command Carrier that rivals their Shadow Depository robbery.

So then that'd be the Moyans vs 50,000 PKs in a stand up fight.... Well maybe if they turn the lights out again.:headbang:

Oh and Scorpsik. Some interesting surveillance footage from intelligence directorate came across my desk today. Behold Grayza's initial arrival at Katratzi.:D

ScorpSik

12-05-2003, 01:52 AM

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT IS BLOODY HYSTERICAL!!!!!

Love the nudey-neon Ahkna!!
:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Darth Buddha

12-05-2003, 02:00 AM

Complicated Pregnancy

First, Grayza probably would NOT be allowed to raise such a child, even if it were full blooded Sebacean. Half human (and half whatever she is, because the doesn't LOOK standard Sebacean to me) and I bet the kid would be raised by a lab.

I think Grayza would surprise us... her character gives the air of somebody who has had a lot taken from her.. both in her attitude when she's in charge, and the places where the way Riggs portrayed her indicated she had some hang-ups.

She might not be down with having a child taken from her as well. One wonders where Scorpius would come down on that, as well, given HIS history. If she wanted out, I could see him helping her break out under such circumstances.

One wonders, would that make Grayza redeemable in shippy eyes?

ScorpSik

12-05-2003, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
Complicated Pregnancy

One wonders, would that make Grayza redeemable in shippy eyes?[/color] [/B]

Somehow, I think not:D

I've never seen such utter loathing for a character before... even making gags to shippers about the JC/Grayza *ahem* incident, carries near lethal consequences....:whip: :ewink:

Darth Buddha

12-05-2003, 02:20 AM

Hey, she's a bad girl. Had it been a male with a female victim, the outrage would have been even more.

But the portrayal of her as being sort of on the edge at times suggests to me that she, like the Moyans, are a demonstration of the fact that "there is much in life that is unfair" as Crais would say.

Who would have thought Crais would redeem himself? Who would have thought of Scorpy as anti-hero?

Aside from Maldus and Namtar, I can't think of many wholly irredeemable villains on Farscape. I don't think Grayza is one of those. Hopefully she'll have a role in the mini.

Ouroboros

12-05-2003, 03:46 AM

Love the nudey-neon Ahkna!!

Ya don't think they'd let me get away with that in my sig do ya?:devil:

First, Grayza probably would NOT be allowed to raise such a child, even if it were full blooded Sebacean. Half human (and half whatever she is, because the doesn't LOOK standard Sebacean to me) and I bet the kid would be raised by a lab.

I'm betting you're right. Peacekeepers don't have family units. They take a communal heavily regulated approach to child rearing. I'm also betting Grayza would not be willing to devote the time necessary to properly raise a child. She might come visit him/her in the lab from time to time but I don't see her playing mommy. I see it as much more of a "Luke I am your father" type situation down the road followed by the requisite scream of "Noooooooo".

While we're on the topic of babies I always thought it was a hugely wasted opportunity that there wasn't another Scorpius style baby who'd decided to go with the Scarrans. Had I been writing the show this is the guy/girl I would have had torture Scorpius on Katratzi. The potential interaction between the two would have been awesome.

I think Grayza would surprise us... her character gives the air of somebody who has had a lot taken from her.. both in her attitude when she's in charge, and the places where the way Riggs portrayed her indicated she had some hang-ups.

I really picked up on it when Crichton called her a whore, she looked like she was about to stab him or cut off something rather important to the guy.

She might not be down with having a child taken from her as well. One wonders where Scorpius would come down on that, as well, given HIS history. If she wanted out, I could see him helping her break out under such circumstances.

I wonder if she could lie her way out like this, nah he'd probably test her. If she is pregnant, and with us already do for one baby I'd rather she not be, it'd better be as part of some nefarious plot and not "by accident". The former would be acceptable but the latter would really stretch my willingness to suspend disbelief.

One wonders, would that make Grayza redeemable in shippy eyes?

In a word, no. In a couple more words. If she s