Scared of spiders? Take this pill

[Harveylives]

Scared of spiders? Take this pill

A readily available anti-tuberculosis drug could also cure man's deepest, darkest phobias. Jo Revill reports

Sunday November 30, 2003
The Observer

For some, the fear can drive them out of their own home. Others have to avoid feathers, subways, glass lifts or city squares that are filled with pigeons.
Phobias appear in many shapes and forms, affecting at least a quarter of the population. But doctors believe that a cure may soon be on hand from the most unlikely quarter.

They have discovered that a drug on the market for tuberculosis helps phobics to overcome their worst fears within a week. They believe it could be the anti-phobia pill which scientists have been searching for.

Early results from trials have been greeted with some excitement. The medication, D-cycloserine, works alongside traditional talking therapy and speeds up the process through which sufferers can learn how to beat their irrational panic.

The chemical causes changes to the amygdala, the part of the brain involved in learning and memory. It involves a protein that appears to kick-start a chain of neuro chemical events that enable people to relearn what makes them scared.

'These results are very exciting,' said Michael Otto, professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. 'They represent a new direction for combining medication and cognitive-behavioural approaches to psychotherapy.'

So far, the pill has been trialled in a study by Michael Davis at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia. Davis took 30 acrophobics - people who are scared of heights - and put them in simulated glass lifts that appeared to go up and down. Those who had received the pill had dramatically reduced levels of fear compared with those who took a placebo.

All of them had received two sessions of psychotherapy. A small dose of D-cycloserine - 50mg - appeared as effective as the 500mg usually given to combat TB.

People with strong phobias usually receive some form of exposure therapy, where they are exposed to whatever it is that they fear, so that they can learn not to be afraid. But normally they need at least eight sessions of therapy before improvements are made, and it doesn't work for everyone.

Davis believes it could work in almost any situation where a person is very nervous, according to Chemistry and Industry magazine. 'It should help you get over whatever it is you are afraid of, as long as you face up to your fear.' Apart from phobias, it could also help people overcome their natural nervousness when learning new skills, such as snowboarding or riding.

The Atlanta team is now beginning a study looking at people with a fear of public speaking, and the Harvard group, led by Otto, is to examine whether the drug could help people who have a panic disorder, a very debilitating form of anxiety.

Theories have abounded over what phobias represent, with some speculating that they are an evolutionary throwback to a time when man had to be instinctively wary of poisonous animals or falling from a cliff.

There are three specific forms: agoraphobia, a fear of open spaces; social phobia, which affects relationships with other people; and specific phobia, dealing with particular stimuli such as spiders or birds.

Freud speculated that agoraphobics suffered because, as young children, they had feared being abandoned by unloving mothers. But modern theories suggest that it often occurs in people who tend to avoid situations that are painful or embarrassing.

The avoidance of danger is a common thread in many phobias, yet phobias about cars, which cause more death and injury than anything else, are unheard of. But inherently disgusting creatures, such as slugs and cockroaches, may relate to an innate avoidance of creatures that would be dangerous to eat, or that might be harmful. Some research suggests there is a genetic predisposition to phobias: identical twins who live apart can independently develop fears such as claustrophobia.

One of the most common is arachnophobia, but sufferers don't all take it as far as Nicola Hearnshaw, who admits that she has invited strangers into her house to remove the creature.

For Nicola, 37, the presence of a tiny money spider is no laughing matter. If she thinks there is one in the house, she will push towels under the doors to keep it away.

'This fear takes over the whole of my life,' said Nicola, a bank clerk from Cheshire. 'I've had people calling at the door to collect charity money, and I've found myself begging them to come in and kill the spider upstairs.' She worries that, by displaying an extreme reaction when even the tiniest creature appears on a web, she might pass on the fear to her young daughter.

The nervous panic that sweeps over Nicola whenever she sees a spider is not uncommon: as many one in four Britons suffers from some kind of similar irrational fear.

Peter Hughes, an airline pilot, runs courses in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow to help thousands of Britons who are terrified of flying. He spends a day helping course members to learn relaxation techniques and talk about their fears, before taking them on a short flight - a technique that works, he says. 'About half our customers suffer from claustrophobia, and the two seem linked,' said Hughes. 'I'm not sure that a pill would work, but I'd be interested to see the results of a trial.'

David Loosmore, a graphic designer from London, would happily be a guinea pig for the pill. He dreads each flight he has to make, and tries to fly only once a year, putting off work-related travel whenever possible.

'In the week before the flight, I start to feel really worried', he said. 'Getting on the plane is hard and, as we approach take-off, I really start to sweat. I have to hold my partner's hand and I feel terrible.

'Strangely enough, a cloudy sky makes me feel safer, because it's as if we are in a giant white cushion. It's when I see the ground below that I feel very sick. I know it's not logical, but it's a very hard feeling to overcome.'

Weird phobias

Xanthophobia - a fear of the colour yellow
Pogonophobia - a fear of beards
Caligynephobia - a fear of beautiful women
Ergasiophobia - a fear of work of any kind
Rupophobia - a fear of dirt
Athazagoraphobia - a fear of forgetting things
Hellenologophobia - a fear of Greek terms
Brontophobia - a fear of lightning
Philophobia - a fear of falling in love
Triskaidekaphobia - a fear of the number 13


http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1096480,00.html

[BrowderChick]

I have fears but they are not that bad. I dont like storms and bugs.

[Selena]

I'm in trouble ... I saw this and misread it as "Take this poll" .... turns out it's a pill not a poll! :rolleyes:

[NYPinTA]

Hey, is there a fear of taking polls? :D

[NebariNookiee]

The only way to cure your fear is to face it. To take a pill to overcome your fear is pure cowardice. A phobia is an irrational fear – which means there’s no real reason you’re afraid, you just are. FACE IT! No pill can compensate for the rush of pride from defeating a long held fear.

[Selena]

My way to defeat spiders is to smash then .... that way they don't have the guts to come back and scare me again. :D

[trinamick]

I have luposlipophobia - the fear of being chased by wolves around a kitchen table while wearing socks on a newly waxed floor.

[Selena]

Originally posted by trinamick
I have luposlipophobia - the fear of being chased by wolves around a kitchen table while wearing socks on a newly waxed floor.
:spew::snicker::lol :rollin::roflmao::roll:

[witchdoctor]

Originally posted by NebariNookiee
The only way to cure your fear is to face it. To take a pill to overcome your fear is pure cowardice. A phobia is an irrational fear – which means there’s no real reason you’re afraid, you just are. FACE IT! No pill can compensate for the rush of pride from defeating a long held fear.

I have to take issue with this. One of the points of the article posted was that there was a biochemical basis of many irrational fears. Having one of the kind of fears discussed in the article is not merely a matter of lacking moral fiber, but a clinical issue. Using a medication in that setting is not cowardice. Using the medication is not a substitute for facing your fear either, but an adjunct. People are still brought face to face with their fear as part of their therapy. The medication just makes therapy more effective and quicker.

The fact that the med works so well and has a lasting effect, argues that there really is a biochemical basis for the phobias. It is not the same thing as drinking alcohol or taking a sedative, for example, to overcome a fear. Those are temporary solutions at best.

[NebariNookiee]

I take issue because I was forced to face my deadly fear of spiders. I could actually do myself harm because of how bad my fear was. I broke my fear of them. I still won't allow them to crawl on me (baby steps... hee hee) but I can now stare at the most horrific looking spider today and never flinch. I faced it (rather reluctantly, but all the same) and I'm a happier person for it.

To simply take a pill is the easy way out. You never face your fear – you only subdue it which does nothing. Oh, how easy it is to simply pop a pill and all your fears melt away... Sounds like a "junky" talking. Everything is a "chemical imbalance" anymore. BULLDREN! Face it and be done with it! Will it be hard? Of course it is -- anyone that tells you different is trying to sell you something.

[NYPinTA]

Unless I read it wrong, I think the article is saying those with the phobias are taking a small dose of the medication during therapy sessions where they do indeed face their fears and the drug sorta helps the brain 'learn' not to be afraid.

[Clarsax]

Maybe a pill will help some people who try everything else and fail, but I think people are too eager these days to take pills to make all thier problems disappear immediately, without making the effort to work it out for themselves. Hiding from problems behind pills is just not a good way to go. The problem doesn't go away, its just covered up for a while.

I'm not too comfortable with the idea that a drug for tuberculosis could become widespread among people who want to get rid of thier fears either. Tuberculosis is one of those bacteria that is resistant to practically everything and using one of the few drugs that still works on it to cure phobias, fear of speaking, and anything else that happens to come along can't be good for those people who contract the disease and need effective medication.

Besides that, fear is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it can protect us from doing something incredibly stupid by making us too afraid to do it. I hate speaking in public, but I actually do better when I'm a little nervous. It makes me concentrate more on what I'm saying and how I'm presenting information to the audience.

Maybe in those cases in which people have tried alternative routes, have tried therapy, and are plagued by a phobia that is destroying thier lives it wouldn't be such a bad option to try medication with therapy, but I wouldn't want to see this kind of medication handed out to people like candy.

[NebariNookiee]

My point was there is only one sure fire way to defeat your fears -- face them. Taking a pill to "help" you face them is too easy.

[Judith]

Okay, it's not always as easy as facing your fears. For most people Fears can be conquered by just dealing with them. But sometimes it is a medical condition.

I have panic disorder and agoraphobia. I've been struggling with this for over a year. It's easy to say "face your fears" when you don't have to deal with panic attacks everyday. In case you aren't aware, panic attacks are roughly equivalent to what you feel when you are in fight or flight mode. When your life is in danger. So basically, I have to deal, every day, with strong emotions that most people only have to face a few times in their lives.

Yes, I take medication. It's not a panacea. Most people with panic disorder take meds in conjunction with ongoing therapy where they learn to control and combat panic attacks. Furthermore, in most cases, the medication is not seen as permanent or even as a solution. You take it so that you can continue with your life in a relatively productive manner WHILE you're going through therapy that teaches you have to desensitize yourself to the stimuli that make you panic. To say taking pills is the easy way out is ridiculous. I take pills so I can go to school, so I can I can interact with people without freaking out, so I can do stuff as simple as going to the grocery store. People are not taking medication to combat ordinary fears. We are taking medication so that we can do normal things that you take for granted.

Personally, I can't wait until I don't need medicine anymore. It makes me too tired most of the time. But I will continue taking it so I can function as normally as possible.

It's ridiculous to claim that chemical imbalences can't cause disorders like this. We are, after all, chemical creatures.

And I resent being compared to a junkie when I don't do illegal drugs, and am just trying to live my life as normally as possible.

[NebariNookiee]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Okay, it's not always as easy as facing your fears. For most people Fears can be conquered by just dealing with them. But sometimes it is a medical condition.

I have panic disorder and agoraphobia. I've been struggling with this for over a year. It's easy to say "face your fears" when you don't have to deal with panic attacks everyday. In case you aren't aware, panic attacks are roughly equivalent to what you feel when you are in fight or flight mode. When your life is in danger. So basically, I have to deal, every day, with strong emotions that most people only have to face a few times in their lives.

Yes, I take medication. It's not a panacea. Most people with panic disorder take meds in conjunction with ongoing therapy where they learn to control and combat panic attacks. Furthermore, in most cases, the medication is not seen as permanent or even as a solution. You take it so that you can continue with your life in a relatively productive manner WHILE you're going through therapy that teaches you have to desensitize yourself to the stimuli that make you panic. To say taking pills is the easy way out is ridiculous. I take pills so I can go to school, so I can I can interact with people without freaking out, so I can do stuff as simple as going to the grocery store. People are not taking medication to combat ordinary fears. We are taking medication so that we can do normal things that you take for granted.

Personally, I can't wait until I don't need medicine anymore. It makes me too tired most of the time. But I will continue taking it so I can function as normally as possible.

It's ridiculous to claim that chemical imbalences can't cause disorders like this. We are, after all, chemical creatures.

And I resent being compared to a junkie when I don't do illegal drugs, and am just trying to live my life as normally as possible.

I feel for you – I really do – but I suffered from severe arachnophobia. So bad in fact – that I would suffer from horrible panic attacks that my doctor feared would hurt me in the long run. Wanna know what happened?

Imagine walking through the mall and suddenly realizing that you are naked with hundreds of thousands of people simply staring at you – that would pretty much do it for you, right?

Now my turn – I went fishing and swimming with some folks to this old watering hole when I was in Texas. We had stepped into this little clearing when I noticed that we were completely surrounded by THOUSANDS of huge black and yellow spiders. There was no where for me to go or do – I flipped out.

Ever since then my fear is gone. It’s that simple. I’m living proof that it does work. And I say to you – get off the meds and take control of your fears – they will only control you.

[Judith]

NN, I suffered from this for a year before I went on medication. It only got worse. I AM taking control of my life. Because that worked for you does not mean that it will work for the thousands of others who have panic disorder, nor does it make tested medical forms of treatment any less legitimate.

Don't assume I didn't try EVERYTHING to get my life back. You don't know me.

[NebariNookiee]

This is the type of spider

[NebariNookiee]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
NN, I suffered from this for a year before I went on medication. It only got worse. I AM taking control of my life. Because that worked for you does not mean that it will work for the thousands of others who have panic disorder, nor does it make tested medical forms of treatment any less legitimate.

Don't assume I didn't try EVERYTHING to get my life back. You don't know me.
Now now -- there's nothing personal here. I'm not attacking you. I suffered from my phobia of spiders as long as I can remember. But my fear is gone. a phobia is nothing but an irrational fear. All it does is control your life. Drop the pills, scream to the heavens "FEAR BE DAMNED!" and face them. Everything else to me is an excuse.

Sorry if it offends -- but I won't apologize for my opinion. Take your life back.

[Judith]

As I said, I am taking my life back. And a phobia is NOT the same as panic disorder. And it's hard not to take it personally when someone tells me to "stop popping pills" for a legitimate, debilitating medical disorder.

[RydraWong]

Now now -- there's nothing personal here.

Yes, there is - since you've said that anyone who takes meds for a panic or anxiety disorder is making "excuses", displaying "pure cowardice" and failing to "take their life back".

To take a pill to overcome your fear is pure cowardice.

Oh, how easy it is to simply pop a pill and all your fears melt away... Sounds like a "junky" talking.

Taking a pill to "help" you face them is too easy.

Drop the pills, scream to the heavens "FEAR BE DAMNED!" and face them. Everything else to me is an excuse.

Don't expect people not to take that personally!

You know what's really "easy"? Lecturing complete strangers on how they should handle their lives and medical problems.

[buggabboo]

as someone who works in a psychiatric facility, i understand the concept of pill pushing. a lot of times that is the case, but, dude...there are times when the body's hormones and chemicals are frelled and they need chemical intervention. that's just a fact.

it's kind of like when people say that they won't take medication or seek medical attention because they say god will use a miracle to heal them.

from my point of view, medication, medical science can be that miracle. if it works, do it!

yes you have to weigh if it's a permanant or temporary situaton and act accordingly, but to belittle someone's way just because it's not your preference is childish.

you can state your opinion, you can keep your opinion, without becoming combative and using inflamatory language. am i gonna force you to?

not really. we're all adults here. but if you care about the people here and consider them worth your respect, you might want to cosider the way your words make them feel.

the end.

[NebariNookiee]

No -- what's easy is hiding behind a problem and then getting angry when someone points it out to you. We as a society have become too dependent on the easy way out. We look for quick solutions so we don’t have to deal with the underlining problem. Therapy is good – in fact it’s frelling great. To be able to communicate your feelings is one of the best ways to get through a problem. But the meds have got to go! It’s a crutch. My doctor tried to get me to take them and I refused. If I can’t face my fears on my own without meds to give me the “edge” then what’s the point? I know as well as anyone how crippling a phobia can be. Panic attacks and disorders stem from that. You have to confront your fears and find the will to beat them down. Only then can you be free of them. It's too easy to go the route of "chemical imbalance." Of course we're chemical creatures -- but does that give us the okay to start screwing with that chemistry? And I’m sorry if I’m offending you guys, but I am speaking the cold hard truth. Regardless if you agree with it or not.

I'll get off my soap box now.

[buggabboo]

ok. you've said your peace.

saying it again and again isn't gonna get through to either one of us.

i'm asking you to let it go.

[Judith]

Well, no, it's not the cold hard truth. We screw with that chemistry every time we take ANY medication.

I'd love to hear your reasons for why it's okay to take antibiotics or medication for a heart condition, while psychiatric disorders can be contolled by sheer force of will.

[Judith]

Okay, I hadn't seen buggaboo's last post when I posted that...otherwise I might just have dropped the issue as well.

[buggabboo]

while i'm sure that it'd be a fascinating conversation.

i'm gonna ask that for at least the next 8 hours you take it to pm.

if after that eight hours (sleep! glorious sleep!) you want to talk about it, they we'll see about starting up a public discussion...but it's already heated and it hasn't even really started yet.

yeah.

i'm going to bed now.

[LiLOrion]

Originally posted by NebariNookiee
A phobia is an irrational fear – which means there’s no real reason you’re afraid, you just are.


I actually am afraid of spiders cause I was bitten several times when I was little, (our vacation cabin in the woods was crawling with them) so I find it very rational that I would be scared of them. :D

[stellar]

I'm afraid of confflict and argueing... but not misspelling.

And the Trinamick thing with the wax floor... that'll keep me up tonight. Thanks Trina.

[NebariNookiee]

Originally posted by LiLOrion
I actually am afraid of spiders cause I was bitten several times when I was little, (our vacation cabin in the woods was crawling with them) so I find it very rational that I would be scared of them. :D
But that's the difference. You have a fear through your own experience with them. I had a phobia. There was no reason at all for me to be afraid of them -- I just was.

[Judith]

Shhhh...we're supposed to be very, very, quiet. Buggaboo's sleeping.

:D

[NebariNookiee]

Oh... right. Sorry. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh... :aok:

[LiLOrion]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Shhhh...we're supposed to be very, very, quiet. Buggaboo's sleeping.

:D

Yeah, and I didnt read the entire thread before I posted what I did. :)

[stellar]

What if you have a pill phobia?

[JadedLegend3]

Well, I know we're to be quiet, but I had to add my 2 cents.

I'm all for not taking pills. I had a serious cold/sinus infection thing this week. Got it Monday and didnt' go to the doc til Saturday. But that's a different story.

I can be a pain in the balls bitch when it comes to going to the doctor for something I believe I can get better with on my own, but when it is something psychiatric, that is a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

You do what you need to do to function. If that means you take a pill, then you take the damn pill!

Also, what works for one person will not always work for another. This can be said about any situation! Any at all! Not even medical! Though sometimes to us it seems difficult to understand why the same solution doesn't work for others.

We're chemical creatures is right! Which means we're all chemically different. This is why the same solutions won't work for everyone.

I too, have a fear of spiders. I won't go so far as to say it is a phobia, but I do stand there and scream and cry until someone comes to kill it. I can feel them crawling on me and I sometimes dream they're out to get me. Foolish? Absolutely! But if I had to cross that walkway w/ the spider on it, I could do it. I'd hate it, but I'd do it.

Just my thoughts. :shrug:


Jacqui :love:

[Frunium Slip]

Well, I've been bitten twice, where it just wouldn't go away, frellin' lump just kept getting bigger. Lance, then place a bit of aloe plant on it. Split the plant, and bandage the whole thing on. Dislike spiders, yes. Fear spiders, no. Of course in my own view the only good spider in my house, is a dead spider.

Of course out of a thirst for vengeance, after I'm bit, well, for a few weeks, all spiders are mush. After that, it goes back to the live and let live. As long as there outside.

And NN, don't ever work at the French section of Bush Gardens, it's all log cabins, and filled with spider webs underneath. Actually had to do some electrical wiring under one. Didn't take a flashlight, frell, I didn't want to see the little vermin. Went through webs like in some bad b-rated monster movie, can't say I really liked it though...

[LiLOrion]

Originally posted by JadedLegend3
I too, have a fear of spiders. I won't go so far as to say it is a phobia, but I do stand there and scream and cry until someone comes to kill it. I can feel them crawling on me and I sometimes dream they're out to get me. Foolish? Absolutely! But if I had to cross that walkway w/ the spider on it, I could do it. I'd hate it, but I'd do it.


:rollin: Laughing only cause I've been there!

I can look at them, preferably from afar, but I dont want them ON me.

When I try to kill them, they have a tendency to challenge me and run AT me, which also freaks me out a bit as well. :)

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by LiLOrion
:rollin: Laughing only cause I've been there!

I can look at them, preferably from afar, but I dont want them ON me.

When I try to kill them, they have a tendency to challenge me and run AT me, which also freaks me out a bit as well. :)

Seriously!!! We had this big-brown-spider-epidemic in my house this summer. These suckers were about as big as my fist. And furry. Furry spiders are no good!

We have seven cats. I kept throwing the cats at the spiders, but even the cats would run away from them!!! LOL


Jacqui :love:

[Judith]

Originally posted by LiLOrion


When I try to kill them, they have a tendency to challenge me and run AT me, which also freaks me out a bit as well. :)

Neat and useless fact:

Black widows will run away if you blow on them.

[LiLOrion]

Originally posted by JadedLegend3
Seriously!!! We had this big-brown-spider-epidemic in my house this summer. These suckers were about as big as my fist. And furry. Furry spiders are no good!

We have seven cats. I kept throwing the cats at the spiders, but even the cats would run away from them!!! LOL


Jacqui :love:

The biggest spider I have ever seen in my house was the size of a nickle, but black and furry like a baby tarantula. ICK!

I was used to the spiders that were basically like little daddy long legs...kinda like a stick-figure-spider with no fur.

I agree though, furry spiders are NO GOOD!

:rollin: And now I have a mental image of a person throwing cats at spiders...thank you. :rollin:

[Frunium Slip]

All spiders try and run away, but in the Sreamin' for Vengeance mode, they just don't get very far, he he he...

[LiLOrion]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Neat and useless fact:

Black widows will run away if you blow on them.

I want to know who discovered that one, cause my first reaction to seeing a black widow would not be to blow on it. :)

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Neat and useless fact:

Black widows will run away if you blow on them.

Thanks Judith_Shakespeare, but I have no intention of getting close enough to find out! LOL

My theory has always been, if it has more than 6 legs and lives on land, it does not have any right to exist in the same time and space as me. I feel that 6 is an adaquate number of legs and that no land-dwelling creature should have mroe than that.

Jacqui :love:

[Judith]

You may be on to something. Centipedes scares the hell out of me!

Animals may very well get exponentially more scary with each pair of legs.

[witchdoctor]

Ooops, it looks like I opened up quite a can of worms when I responded to NebariNookiee. Actually, I agree with a lot of the points you made, NebariNookiee. I think chemical imbalance is over used and medications are probably over prescribed in the psychiatry field, at least from my standpoint. However, to say that there aren't any real instances of chemical, hormonal or neurotransmitter imbalance is just as wrong. There are many diseases where this is known to be just the etiology, and as buggabboo point out, the field of mental illness has many such diseases.

I am also quite willing to believe your decision not to use medications to deal with your phobias, despite your doctors advice, was the correct one. Where I disagree is in your assertion that that decision must be right for everyone else. Judith_Shakespeare has made the opposite decision as you in dealing with her phobias and I also believe she made the right decision. This is not a contradiction. What is different is what you each brought to the decision process. You decided the possible side effects of the meds were not justified by the benefits and wanted to tackle your phobia(s) your-self. I can only applaud your success, self-reliance and (deserved) sense of accomplishment. Judith_Shakespeare decided the benefit of the drugs in coping with her phobia outweighed the down side.

I think there are too many people who think of doctors as repair technicians to whom you bring a problem and you purchase a fix. Some even come and ask for instructions and follow them blindly, because they are the "doctor's orders." I tend to think of my position as a physician more like a consultant for my patients. I have knowledge and access to tools (drugs, procedures, instruments) that they do not, but ultimately it is the patient that knows what is right for them. Only your patient can decide how far to go in seeking a cure or what side effects of a medication or treatment are acceptable. While it is more difficult dealing with an informed and questioning patient, ultimately the results are better if there are two active parties in the doctor-patient relationship. I am willing to let people make medical decisions I don't agree with, even "wrong" decisions, as long as their decision making is informed and their judgement is not impaired.

[witchdoctor]

I agree with Clarsax's points too. There is a tendency to over use medications and pills that should be guarded against. If phobias can be overcome without meds, so much the better. However, some of the more extreme and persistant case of phobias may very well have a biochemical basis and I do not believe it is not a cop-out to use a medication in such cases, particularly if non-pharmacologic methods have failed and the medication will not be harmful itself. In particular, the medication in this article, D-cycloserine, is not used as a replacement for facing the fear itself, nor is it used on an on-going or indefinite manner. It is used on a limited basis and only to enhance the regular therapy.

Believe me, your points about not over using a TB med are well taken. Luckily D-cycloserine is not a first line TB med and will be used in small quantities. I suppose if you are really concerned, you could place a PPD (TB skin test) on any potential users of the drug. If it is negative, then no problem because you are not exposing any TB bacilli to the antibiotic. If it comes up positive, then give the normal TB treatment to kill the bacillus and it won't matter that the D-cycloserine is also on board. As an infectious diseases doctor, I don't like to use any anti-biotic unnessarily and I prefer to use as narrow a spectrum anti-biotic as possible. I am probably more conservative in antibiotic use than the average physician, just because I have had to deal with drug resistant bacteria, as well as the consequences and side effects of antibiotics.

The unnecessary use of anti-biotics is a whole other subject and it is time for me to get off my soap-box.

Buggabboo, I have tried not to offend and to be cognizant of others feelings, but I felt a need to put in my two cents. I really do enjoy hearing what others think, even when it is opposite to my views. Otherwise, I could just talk to myself.

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare

Animals may very well get exponentially more scary with each pair of legs.

Truer words were never said...er...typed! LOL

What I hate are those thousand-leggers that are hairy! Eww! Bugs should just not be hairy! That's like, a prerequisite. LOL


Jacqui :love:

[witchdoctor]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
You may be on to something. Centipedes scares the hell out of me!

Animals may very well get exponentially more scary with each pair of legs.

:rollin: Yes, I have to admit to not being comfortable with insects, and spiders in particular, though not to the point of a phobia. My fear usually just takes the form of a good startle reaction if I find one on me all of a sudden. And as is often the case, fear begats violence, in that I usually kill spiders.

[B Sharp]

ok, this not an attempt to restart the earlier debate or wake any sleepers, but I just recently read about an article about the amygdala and learning, and I found it really really interesting- not from a phobia POV, but from a learning POV... for example:

- article said that once you get a 'shot' of adrenaline, you can't learn anything new. the ability to learn is pretty much shut down...you're bathed in a stress reaction that preps you for fight/flight.

- article said that chronic adrenaline baths (e.g. due to high stress environments) can essentially have you in a semi-perm state of fight/flight.

so- if I'm prescribed the pill, I'm taking my medicine.

the amygdala is a really strange little thing- http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/amygdala.htm

[BlackThorn]

The amygdala: Keeping prey stupid since the dawn of time.

[buggabboo]

*snort*

remember...respect each other, respect that some of us have a job to do, and do what you gotta.

you guys are pretty cool about self policing, just remember that honestly doesn't have to be unkind.

why am i awake again?

[witchdoctor]

Originally posted by buggabboo


why am i awake again?

Probably for the same reason I am typing away here instead of going down to see my family that just got home. You just can't stay away from this community.

[Frunium Slip]

Maybe, it's thinking of all those spiders...

[buggabboo]

i like spiders.

i won't torture you all with my tarantula stories though...

[BlackThorn]

Oooo.....torture! Bring on the pain...I mean stories. Of course, watching Chamber of Secrets puts one in a spider sort of mood.

[Defect9]

the average person eats 3 spiders per year in their sleep...

hope you dont sleep with your mouth open. they like warm places.

-J

[Judith]

Originally posted by Defect9
the average person eats 3 spiders per year in their sleep...

hope you dont sleep with your mouth open. they like warm places.

-J

God only knows what other orifices they get into.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Defect9
the average person eats 3 spiders per year in their sleep...

hope you dont sleep with your mouth open. they like warm places.

-J

How does one study that?

[Defect9]

God only knows what other orifices they get into.

thanks. I needed that mental image.


..besides, what other orifices you think they're gonna get sucked into?

-J

[BlackThorn]

Preferrably with a little ranch dressing.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Defect9
thanks. I needed that mental image.


..besides, what other orifices you think they're gonna get sucked into?

-J

Well, they could CRAWL in...

[Frunium Slip]

Originally posted by buggabboo
i like spiders.

i won't torture you all with my tarantula stories though...

Wouldn't torture me, I just have the one rule, if it bites me it dies, it's family members die, everyone I see, dies. At least until the hyperage eases a bit, but have never hugged one, ever, I swear...

[buggabboo]

i live in the high desert.

i've woken up twice with a little tarantula staring at me for the other side of the bed.

which is better than waking up with a child of the earth under your arm or sticking your foot in your shoe that made a nice home for a scorpion.

[BlackThorn]

Ah yes, gotta love the high desert for scorpions. The one that crawled in my bed died horribly.

Disclaimer: I refuse to acknowledge any screaming or sitting in a chair with my feet off the floor for 6 hours after the death of said scorpion.

[Frunium Slip]

Actually got to hold a tarantula, in school, the science museum, somehere as a kid. It'd be one dead spider if it had of bit me though...

[buggabboo]

*snort*

if it makes you feel any better, the first i saw a child of the earth on my floor, i went to wake up my dad at 4am to kill the bugger...

needless to say i've gotten over it.

if they aren't venmous (well...deadly or painful) then i don't particularly care.

[grinner]

what the FRELL is a child of the earth? Is that like a witch of the wind?

[Defect9]

child of the earth = a scorpion (I'm pretty sure)

[B Sharp]

since we're now completely OT, did you know that there's a line about a 'deadly black tarantula' in Harry Belafonte's version of the banana boat song?

you know, the song that *someone* around here put in my head, and ever since then (about 8 hours or so, although it seems much longer), it just won't go won't go away won't go away, no matter how much I massage my amygdala? where's that damn pill, anyway!!

Harry Belafonte- my own personal version of Harvey. Wearing a snappy red bandana, a white shirt....smiling...he bursts into song again....


Psst! B!... listen up, mon:

Day-O! Day, me say day-ay-ay-o
Daylight come and me wan' go home
Day, me say day, me say day, me say day,

[Defect9]

Dego...! Greasy Dey-ey-ey-go!
Dego come, slap the b*tch and go home.
Dey, me say day, me say day-hey-hey-go!

[Defect9]

I really dont mean to offend by that

[buggabboo]

er...

the other bitch isn't offended though she probably should be.

as for what a child of the earth is...it's also called a nina de tierra. they're the coloring and texture of a scorpion with legs like a spider and no hooked tail.

they're scratchy when they're hanging out under your arm. if your dream says that you've got an annoying stick under your pillow...it's probably not a stick

[grinner]

what about the first bitch? is she offended?

[Judith]

Originally posted by Defect9
child of the earth = a scorpion (I'm pretty sure)

I don't think so, cause she said "child of the earth" OR scorpion.

And I really want to know what one is too.

As far as scorpions, I live in the desert (don't think it's high cause I live in a valley) and I am terrified in scorpions. Once I found a scorpion in my apartment, and didn't even want to be close enough kill it. So I put a glass over it, left my apartment, and spent the next two days at a friend's house.

[B Sharp]

grinner, you're truly not afraid to go where angels and nina de tierra fear to tread.

[grinner]

nope... not me. I tain't afeerd of an'ting.

[buggabboo]

you'd have to ask one of them...

as for a child of the earth...i can't find a picture. i'll take one next time i see one, which probably won't be for a year...we just had one in the kitchen last week but i didn't think about pics...woops

oh and if you light them on fire...they screem.

fun times in pyro land.

[BlackThorn]

Wait.....are those the big ones that look like the love child of an ant and a spider?

[Judith]

Originally posted by buggabboo



oh and if you light them on fire...they screem.

fun times in pyro land.

Wow...you ARE a bitch.

:D

(setting fire to animals...that's 2 out of 3 serial killer traits).

[Frunium Slip]

Remind me not to piss off the mods on this forum...

[buggabboo]

Originally posted by BlackThorn
Wait.....are those the big ones that look like the love child of an ant and a spider?


the big black ones? those are vinegaroons. ugly and smelly as hell.

as for the lighting the suckers on fire...i personally never did it, but i was there when it happened...especially at fourth of july.

like i'd never do it to a wabbit.

i have a relative conscience. that's probably a bad thing, huh. *g*

[Judith]

You have way too many weird bugs in where ever you're from.

[buggabboo]

Originally posted by Frunium Slip
Remind me not to piss off the mods on this forum...
unfortunately for you, i'm a mod in all but three. hee!

[BlackThorn]

The one's I was talking about have all been brown or tan.....at least that I've seen.

[buggabboo]

if they're between one to two and a half inches they'd be children, if they're two to four inches they'd be vinegaroons

[BlackThorn]

Hmm.....I believe about 2 inches. Cool. Always wondered what the frell those things were.

[trinamick]

I came home from work the other day and reached to open my front door. Normally, I'm looking in my mailbox as I open the door, but that day I had my left hand full, so I just reached with my right hand toward the door handle. I saw something move, and I jerked my hand back, right before I put it directly on an ENORMOUS black widow. Scared the bejesus outta me, so I just the screen door fast, went into the house through the back door, and got a cup to catch him in. Then I tormented it the rest of the day, showing it off, tapping on the sides of the glass, etc. I finally gave it to a little boy I know. His mother was thrilled, I'm sure. :eek:

Incidentally, my boss's son got bit by a black widow awhile back at a geology site and had to be taken to the emergency room. It immediately depletes your body of calcium and you get severe abdominal pains. The first thing they inject you with at the ER is calcium, but he had to stay in the hospital for a day. Not fun, but a great story to tell at parties.

[JadedLegend3]

Umm... I don't like bugs.


That's the only relevant thing I have to say! LOL


Jacqui :love:

[Tiriel]

Hmm, according to what I found Child of the Earth is also called Jerusalem Cricket, although another place called them Windscorpions, I'll attach the pic that came with the Windscorpion thing...ugly buggers for sure.

OK, buggs: WHERE do you live?! Just so I know where NEVER to move to! Bloody hell! In Germany there is exactly ONE type of spider, which can bite through the human skin and inject its poison and it's not poisonous enough to do any harm and lives in the deep dark woods of which there are like three left in the entire country.

The big advantage of overpopulated places: Your ancestors have already killed everything that's vaguely threatening (even if it only looks that way).

This place is starting to scare me...I won't even consider moving anywhere where there isn't at least 15 miles of concrete in all directions between me and the horrors of Mother Nature...

Love and Peace and :eek3:

Tiriel :bounce:

[Selena]

:horror: :thud: :scare:
I hate bugs.

[RydraWong]

Am I the only person here to think tarantulas are really cute?

(I realize I may regret asking this question ...)

[trinamick]

I think tarantulas are cute. A friend of mine had one named Buttercup. Of course, I wouldn't be as fond of one if it were running across the floor at me with hunger in its eyes...

[Clarsax]

Tarantulas aren't bad at all. I like them better than other spiders. But then, I like a lot of insects too.

[JadedLegend3]

While I can't stand spiders or any insect, I'm frankly more concerned about the R.O.U.S.s...


Jacqui :love:

[Judith]

I don't think tarantulas are cute exactly, but I think they're cool and I'm not scared of them.

[Tiriel]

OK, NOW you've people done it! Them darn spiders are EVERYWHERE!!! Never seen one inside the insitute before and now they're in the corridors, the staircases, all over the place! Big ugly hunting-spiders at that, the ones that can run like hell and jump to put a frog to shame!

I am SO out of here!

Love and Peace and :eek3:

Tiriel :bounce:

[buggabboo]

hee!

welcome to my world, t.

[trinamick]

Originally posted by JadedLegend3
While I can't stand spiders or any insect, I'm frankly more concerned about the R.O.U.S.s...


I don't think they exist...AAAAUUUGGGHHH!!!

[Gargunza]

I love spiders.

Seriously! I prefer spiders to most people. Generally speaking, I try not to harm anything living--I'll escort moths or flies outside, refrain from killing ants, that sort of thing--but I will go out of my way to save the life of a spider. (Although I DID kill one once, at the request of a woman I was dating, who then started dating someone else behind my back...never again.)

I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm a Scorpio. But then, I'm not that keen on scorpions, so that can't be right....

--Mattttt

PS: Not a fan of The Scorpions, either.

PPS: BIG fan of Scorpius, of course.

PPPS: Actually, the only spiders I don't like are the crappy mechanical spiders from that bad 80's movie "Runaway." But that might just be my distaste for Gene Simmons affecting my judgment.

PPPPS: ...I'm shutting up now.

[Tiriel]

Originally posted by Gargunza
Generally speaking, I try not to harm anything living--I'll escort moths or flies outside, refrain from killing ants, that sort of thing--but I will go out of my way to save the life of a spider.

OK, Mattttt, could you explain to me one more time: Why can't you move down to LA and marry me?!?!

I mean spiders are really not my favorites, as a matter of fact they are the only thing that really still manages to scare me (well, besides all those bugs I see and have absolutely no idea what they are and must therefore assume they're probably dangerous or else we'd have them in Germany, too :D), but anybody who can care enough for even such a ferocious preditor like a spider...Dude! :love:

Love and Peace and :hug:

Tiriel :bounce:

[Scaper_S]

Originally posted by NebariNookiee
The only way to cure your fear is to face it. To take a pill to overcome your fear is pure cowardice. A phobia is an irrational fear – which means there’s no real reason you’re afraid, you just are. FACE IT! No pill can compensate for the rush of pride from defeating a long held fear.


I'm not sure I agree with this. Have you experienced irrational fear? I have a serious fear of large spiders, to the point of being physically sick. I have abandoned my car on the road, left my house, run away from work & made my father drive 50 miles to get rid of one for me, because of it. I have lived in my house nearly 3 years and I am unable to go into the attic because I fear spiders that might be up there. Nothing has worked (yet), although I have on occasion been able to kill them (with a very, very long stick and super strength bug killer, which takes an entire can to work on a large spider!). Frell cowardice. If there is a pill, I'll take it.

[Gargunza]

....Well, I happen to think most spiders are pretty. Some of the orb weavers, for instance, are quite beautiful. And with THAT color scheme, the Black Widow HAD to have been designed with the Peacekeepers in mind!

But most types of spiders aren't what I'd call "ferocious predators." Sure, you've got your tarantulas and your wolf spiders, that go chasing after their prey...but most spiders are a study in patience. They take their time, craft complex and beautiful patterns, and wait for their prey to come to them. Then they watch as their victims fumble into the trap, quite by accident, and get hopelessly tangled...they pounce...wrap the quarry up so tightly they'll never escape...sink their fangs in, and inject that venom, and wait until their victims' insides are all melted....

Kind of like "Farscape."

OK, Mattttt, could you explain to me one more time: Why can't you move down to LA and marry me?!?!

When did I say I wouldn't? I don't remember that. If push comes to shove, give me a call! We might be able to work something out.... ;)

--Mattttt

PS: I really need to go to sleep. Like, now. Before I start drooling on the keyboard again.

PPS: ...Yes, "again." It’s happened before. One time in college, I pulled an all-nighter before heading into the campus computer lab to write a term paper; an hour later, I woke up with a face like a Belgian waffle and 22 pages of lower-case Q's.

PPPS: ...Wow, none of that was about spiders at all, was it? I need sleep worse than I thought.

[Judith]

I too tend to avoid killing bugs, but if it's something poisonous, like a black widow, than it is dangerous to my cats and I gotta think of them first.

[trinamick]

Our elementary school put a black widow in a cage with a gerbil or a hamster, I forget which. The gerbil/hamster attacked the spider and bit its head off. The kids talked about it for weeks.

[Judith]

Originally posted by trinamick
Our elementary school put a black widow in a cage with a gerbil or a hamster, I forget which. The gerbil/hamster attacked the spider and bit its head off. The kids talked about it for weeks.

Ummm...did the kids do that or a teacher?

I remember when I was in first grade someone brought in a corn snake and showed us how snakes eat. They fed it baby mice, and I was the only girl in my class who would watch. I was always kind of proud of that.

[trinamick]

The teacher actually did it. Apparently, it's a known fact or somethinng that a hamster/gerbil will kill spiders. I don't know if it works every time. When I gave a little boy my black widow, he tried to talk his mom into letting him put it in with his hamster to try it out. I warned him that his hamster was a little overweight, and he might give it a heart attack, let alone his mother!

[Judith]

Originally posted by trinamick
The teacher actually did it. Apparently, it's a known fact or somethinng that a hamster/gerbil will kill spiders. I don't know if it works every time. When I gave a little boy my black widow, he tried to talk his mom into letting him put it in with his hamster to try it out. I warned him that his hamster was a little overweight, and he might give it a heart attack, let alone his mother!

You really should be careful about giving spiders and/or candy to kids! :D

[trinamick]

LOL! I have a shirt that says, Strangers Have The Best Candy!

[Judith]

I used to have a bumper sticker with that phrase pinned to my wall. (I don't know how to drive, so couldn't put it on a car).

[trinamick]

You never learned how to drive, or you're not a good driver?

[Judith]

I never learned, but I'm going to take lessons during Christmas break.

[B Sharp]

Originally posted by Tiriel
This place is starting to scare me...I won't even consider moving anywhere where there isn't at least 15 miles of concrete in all directions between me and the horrors of Mother Nature...

Love and Peace and :eek3:

Tiriel :bounce:

well, that leaves out Hawaii (not much concrete there in any given direction...), so you'd probably better take that off your list...

[trinamick]

So, JS, do you take public transportation or do you walk? I'm curious because I live in the middle of nowhere, without public transportation, so if we don't drive, we have to hoof it everywhere.

[Judith]

I do both. But I really need to learn to drive cause the public transportation sucks out here, and I'm just not walking through another Phoenix summer.

[trinamick]

One of the best things about driving in NE is getting to run over rattlesnakes on country roads. Ok, so we don't have a lot of entertainment out here. It's that or cow tipping.

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by trinamick
One of the best things about driving in NE is getting to run over rattlesnakes on country roads. Ok, so we don't have a lot of entertainment out here. It's that or cow tipping.

Hey man, cow tipping can be dangerous! You gotta watch out for that bull...he gets a lil riled up sometimes...

Of course, I know nothing about cow-tipping... :innocent:

Jacqui :love:

[Judith]

Originally posted by trinamick
One of the best things about driving in NE is getting to run over rattlesnakes on country roads.

I think the coolest job uniform I ever had was wearing rattlesnake guards over my jeans.

[buggabboo]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
I do both. But I really need to learn to drive cause the public transportation sucks out here, and I'm just not walking through another Phoenix summer.

now i know you're insane. not driving in phoenix is close to having a death wish. yeah. i'm glad you're learning this christmas. it's a good thing. very.

i love driving!