The whole, two Johns thing...

[JadedLegend3]

Does anyone else still get confused about the whole two Johns thing? LOL I do!

I was trying to explain it to my friend and my mom the other day, and I think I lost some brain cells in the process!!!

As far as the father of Aeryn's baby goes, there are a number of John possibilities, yes?

1. The original original John (from A Human Reaction) is MJohn...in which case, he could be the father because they slept together once...

2. TJohn, b/c well, there was a lot of activity on Talyn!!! LOL

3. But, if TJohn is the original, original John, and he's dead, then if he's the father, MJohn isn't...

But MJohn really would be anyway b/c of the whole same DNA/same person kinda thing, right?


Okay, I just confused myself again! LOL


Jacqui :love:

[Famira Damaris]

*brain implodes* Too much...confusion!

[JrMissToughChick]

Niether Are the original original John Because they were Twinned not Cloned. It dosen't mater anyway they have the same DNA.

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick
Niether Are the original original John Because they were Twinned not Cloned. It dosen't mater anyway they have the same DNA.

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

But one had to be the original original b/c there weren't two in the beginning! Right? Argh!


This is why I'm an english major and not a math/science major...I'm not smart enough for all that nonsense! LOL No offense to all those math/science oriented people out there...some of my best friends are math/science people! :P


Jacqui :love:

[JrMissToughChick]

They were split into to two from the original John. Therfore Niether is John Crichton yet they both are.

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[generic_screenname]

The way I understand it they split equally, so they both are the original. And...they both are the copy.

[JrMissToughChick]

"you are both perfect...if thats the right word...Copys of the Original John Crichton, Equal And Uniqe" Jool TFS

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[ScorpSik]

Ah, Jool spoke much wisdom when it came to John.
'an irritating and inferior species......goodnight'
:whip:

[Frunium Slip]

But didn't the 'good' doctor in Eat Me state something on the order that twinning takes a little bit out of the original to make the 'copies', thus the problem with over twinning, the copies eventually become nothing better than near mindless animals. So, I gathered the twinning process makes two identical copies, but each just a margin less than the original before the twinning.

Poor old JC, first being shot across the galaxy, living with escaped prisoners, sought by the dreaded galactic enforcement goon squad, then the aurora chair, the neural clone, the twinning, and the love of his life taking off without mentioning she was pregnant, and people wonder why he might have acted a little strange in year four...

Frell, I think I just gave myself a headache...

[JrMissToughChick]

I think some one Mentioned that that might be because the soul is split and each time you have a little less. I don't know if I agree, but could be? not sure! have to watch more but that would explain alot.

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[FieryHands]

Getting a little existential with splitting souls. Its a bit creepy to suggest John's really lost part of his soul.

[brokendj23]

alright alright already! Ive come to this thread and then run away with fear, then come back again only to run again for fear that the two hemispheres of my brain don't melt into a soupy mush, but the neural clone in MY head can't help but mention the whole twinning of the neural clone in jc's head and how they...ah frell...soup anyone?

[thecrazykind]

I just think of cell division when it comes to the two Johns. In cell division the original cell gets split into two identicle cells which is exactly what happened to Johnny if I remember correctly. So technically both of the two Johns are the original John. At least that's the way I see it. It's hard not to think of it as cloning though because I can't image John as a cell going through all the mitosis stuff. Oh I dunno!!! :faint:

-Liz ;)

[Weetabix]

Maybe TalynJohn was the original (let's say the template :D )and that's why the Ancient "Jack" contacted him instead of MoyaJohn in Icarus Adibe. He says that he kept a link with John since Human Reaction. You can suppose that the link was not duplicated like the rest in Eat Me...

Just a theory...

[JrMissToughChick]

Originally posted by FieryHands
Getting a little existential with splitting souls. Its a bit creepy to suggest John's really lost part of his soul.
The same person said he got it back when TJohn Died or from Starks mask or while they were both dead or something I don't Remember who it was though.

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[Frunium Slip]

Originally posted by thecrazykind
I just think of cell division when it comes to the two Johns. In cell division the original cell gets split into two identicle cells which is exactly what happened to Johnny if I remember correctly. So technically both of the two Johns are the original John. At least that's the way I see it. It's hard not to think of it as cloning though because I can't image John as a cell going through all the mitosis stuff.

But remember what happened to the PeaceKeeper crew on that other leviathan, they did indeed lose 'something' in the twinning. Wasn't much left of 'em, and didn't the bad guy, Karvak? Carwash? something, state that he had twinned them a little too much...

[brokendj23]

Maybe TalynJohn was the original (let's say the template )and that's why the Ancient "Jack" contacted him instead of MoyaJohn in Icarus Adibe

damn, beat me to it, i was just going to ask why ancient jack didnt bother moya john...also, it seems that tjohn really didnt have much of an interest in wormholes, just aeryn, he was kinda forced into it, as mjohn was all about wormholes (though prob forced into it because of no aeryn) what was my point? i thought i had one...then i lost it...ARRRGGGHHH!!!! frell this thread!

[JrMissToughChick]

Originally posted by Weetabix
Maybe TalynJohn was the original (let's say the template :D )and that's why the Ancient "Jack" contacted him instead of MoyaJohn in Icarus Adibe. He says that he kept a link with John since Human Reaction. You can suppose that the link was not duplicated like the rest in Eat Me...

Just a theory...

I think It was AERYN not JOHN that they looked for ;)
And I am pretty sure a mind reading Alien would have known there were two! The Ancients new John Loved Aeryn they saw it from the first time they met him... IE it was Aeryn not John they were looking for. if that John was on moya and MJohn was with Aeryn it would have happened the same way.

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[Judith]

I always thought that Jack showed up on Talyn just cause Talyn was more "in the area" than Moya was.

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
I always thought that Jack showed up on Talyn just cause Talyn was more "in the area" than Moya was.

Me too. Guess we go for the simpliest answers! hehehe

Also, glad to see everyone's brains are turning to mush! My work here is done! LOL :ewink:


Jacqui :love:

[brokendj23]

oh yeah!!!!!my point!!!! if mjohn was the one actively looking for wormholes NOT tjohn, why wouldn't jack go after that one, thank u neural clone

[JrMissToughChick]

ITS AERYN I TELL YA *sheesh*

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[Frunium Slip]

Hmmmm...

Maybe Ancient Jack thought TJohn with Aeryn and the gunship would be better taking out the Charrids than MJohn battling D'Argo and an unarmed Leviathan.

Of course it could have been coincidental with MJohn going into a coma.

Or that TJohn was just closer.

Or it was mere happen stance.

Or, frell, I'm gonna need more aspirin...

Edited to add a 'T' at the end of thought, though, although a fine word just didn't covey the thought I was going with, maybe...

[JrMissToughChick]

Or it could have been the only way to kill off the right John!
Come on think Like DK here ;)

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[Frunium Slip]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick
Or it could have been the only way to kill off the right John!
Come on think Like DK here

Too true...

[brokendj23]

hahahaha i think i'm starting to go crazy like jc circa season 2!

[Lindsay White]

Sadly, the real, ORIGINAL John 'died,' at the momen of twinning.
The same is true for ORIGINAL Chiana and D'Argo. It's easier to but because we saw one of Chi and D's twins die. It just so happened that the John twins both survived. The scenario is sad and disturbing, but makes for a great story. That is just my humble opinion...

[JrMissToughChick]

It's the truth though Lindsay :)

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[thecrazykind]

Originally posted by Frunium Slip
But remember what happened to the PeaceKeeper crew on that other leviathan, they did indeed lose 'something' in the twinning. Wasn't much left of 'em, and didn't the bad guy, Karvak? Carwash? something, state that he had twinned them a little too much...

Well maybe my cells are getting stupider each time they split into new ones!!! Especially my brain cells since I just used the word stupider (which actually isn't a word unless you want it to be ;) ) instead of 'more stupid'. All my past english teachers would be whacking me over the head with something right now if they saw this. :innocent:

[Paul Cousins]

Originally posted by Frunium Slip
But didn't the 'good' doctor in Eat Me state something on the order that twinning takes a little bit out of the original to make the 'copies', thus the problem with over twinning, the copies eventually become nothing better than near mindless animals. So, I gathered the twinning process makes two identical copies, but each just a margin less than the original before the twinning.

Poor old JC, first being shot across the galaxy, living with escaped prisoners, sought by the dreaded galactic enforcement goon squad, then the aurora chair, the neural clone, the twinning, and the love of his life taking off without mentioning she was pregnant, and people wonder why he might have acted a little strange in year four...

Frell, I think I just gave myself a headache...

And here I thought it was the moonshine. :rollin:

By the way, I loved the 'Crichton Kicks (Ass)' episode.

After all that the fact the John has not permanently lost his mind is a miracle in of itself. But having Harvey in his head makes me wonder.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Paul Cousins


After all that the fact the John has not permanently lost his mind is a miracle in of itself.

Hasn't he?

[JadedLegend3]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Hasn't he?


Haven't we all? :spin:

BTW, this is my 500th post!!! Woohoo!!!! :party:


Jacqui :love:

[Paul Cousins]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Hasn't he?

By that I mean he is not 'Stark' raving mad.

Sorry, I could not help myself. ;)

[JadedLegend3]

You see, Paul Cousins, this is what happens!!!

LOL guess I'm just another stark-raving-mad FMD poster! :spin:


Jacqui :love:


As an aside, whenever I go to type "love," it always comes out "lvoe." Wonder if there's any deep meaning behind that...

[Paul Cousins]

Originally posted by JadedLegend3
You see, Paul Cousins, this is what happens!!!

LOL guess I'm just another stark-raving-mad FMD poster! :spin:


Jacqui :love:


As an aside, whenever I go to type "love," it always comes out "lvoe." Wonder if there's any deep meaning behind that...

If someone here start screaming, "My side! Your side! My side! Your side!" I would start worrying. ;)

[Genesi]

Originally posted by Paul Cousins
If someone here start screaming, "My side! Your side! My side! Your side!" I would start worrying. ;)
LOL! I did just this thing at work today. It made everyone look at me like I was crazy. Ah, I loev that look of confusion on everyones face :)

[Gargunza]

Originally posted by Frunium Slip
But didn't the 'good' doctor in Eat Me state something on the order that twinning takes a little bit out of the original to make the 'copies', thus the problem with over twinning, the copies eventually become nothing better than near mindless animals. So, I gathered the twinning process makes two identical copies, but each just a margin less than the original before the twinning.

Just a speculation...I seem to remember Kaarvok saying something to D'Argo about "You know how painful it {twinning} is." From that, I got the impression that it was the sustained torture of being repeatedly twinned that eventually drove the PK victims insane. Not so much that they "lost" anything, because if both the resulting twins are truly "equal and original," they can't lose anything in the process.

Of course, we could get into physics, and the laws of thermodynamics, and the whole entropy-increasing-over-time thing, but come ON--it's TV SF. About the biggest "science" thing they used in Season 3 was the cesium/ice explosive mixture they used to make the budong vomit in "Green-Eyed Monster." (And do we ever mind the lack of hard science? I think not.)

As far as the Ancient Jack thing is concerned: I think of this as a continuation of the fine John Crichton tradition of being in the right place at an UNBELIEVABLY wrong time. TalynJohn just drew the short straw.

Well, I'm off to bed. For some reason, my head hurts.

--Mattttt

[Paul Cousins]

Originally posted by Genesi
LOL! I did just this thing at work today. It made everyone look at me like I was crazy. Ah, I loev that look of confusion on everyones face :)

I hate to break it to you, but I think they are right and that they were not giving you a look of confusion, but of pity.

[JrMissToughChick]

It's Painfull? I don't think John even knew he was twinned How is that?

Much Love
~JrMTC~

[recklesshumor]

Just my two cents ... I think the twinning process is akin to DNA replication. Generally, when DNA replicates, you get an exact copy through the mRNA-to-DNA process, but occassionally, you get mistakes. Also known as mutations. The more you replicate, the more likely a mutation will arise. John, D, and Chi were just lucky no mutations happened on their first round of twinning. Thus, I believe, like DNA, the twins are EXACT copies.

[Nicola]

Originally posted by recklesshumor
Just my two cents ... I think the twinning process is akin to DNA replication. Generally, when DNA replicates, you get an exact copy through the mRNA-to-DNA process, but occassionally, you get mistakes. Also known as mutations. The more you replicate, the more likely a mutation will arise. John, D, and Chi were just lucky no mutations happened on their first round of twinning. Thus, I believe, like DNA, the twins are EXACT copies.

I like this theory. It is the one I am adopting....

[Selena]

Originally posted by brokendj23
... but the neural clone in MY head can't help but mention the whole twinning of the neural clone in jc's head and how they...ah frell...soup anyone?

You actually raise an interesting point there. The neural chip was removed but the clone remained. If and when JC was twinned with all his memories intact it would explain why both JCs had the same Harvey memories ... but wouldn't 2 Harvey's mess with Scorpius?

[Judith]

Originally posted by Selena
You actually raise an interesting point there. The neural chip was removed but the clone remained. If and when JC was twinned with all his memories intact it would explain why both JCs had the same Harvey memories ... but wouldn't 2 Harvey's mess with Scorpius?

Do we know how much the Harveys "interacted" with Scorpius? That's something I'm kind of foggy on.

[brokendj23]

the only thing i distinctly remember, is that whole part in LGAM where JC is like 'scorpy' and the clone says 'i'm not scorpius, but he is' etc. u know the rest

[Selena]

I don't think we have a clue just how much the clone 'told' Scorpius ... nor just how sinister Scorpius really is.
I'm trying to recall who said what at the Burbank Con but one of the guests made a startling revelation ... (well startling to me anyway) ... they said that if we were starting to accept Scorpius as the good guy (or not such a bad guy) then it was time to up the ante and make him even more sinister... or something to that effect ... no doubt someone will have that actual quote word for word.

[FieryHands]

I would think that Harvey's loyalty would lie more with John than Scorpius at this point. He admitted to lying to John about giving Scorpius wormhole tech in order to get him save the guy who he essentially came from. Harvey's kind of a bastard child of the two.

One thing has bugged me about the twinning though--We never saw Crais's reaction to there being two Johns. I mean, he already had tough competition for Aeryn with just the one...

[brokendj23]

One thing has bugged me about the twinning though--We never saw Crais's reaction to there being two Johns. I mean, he already had tough competition for Aeryn with just the one...

that is true, however I think way too much was going on at the time for crais to really process the whole thing, and by the end of thanks for sharing he was back to dealing with just one JC again anyways...by the time they returned to moya, he seemed "saddened" by tjohns death and also told mjohn to 'give her time'

[FieryHands]

I just wanted to see his expression trying to comprehend what god/fate/omnipotent being would be so cruel as to curse the universe with two John Crichtons. :rolleyes:

[brokendj23]

curse? my gf would think it was wonderful if there were 2 jc's or 2 of me and one of them at least kissed like him.

[fiona-maria]

I like the DNA/mitosis explanation of the twinning...being that when cells divide they are exact replicas of themselves....

O dear. Now I am getting confused. And I thought it made sense when I was typing it....*sigh*

As it also makes sense that the pain of the twinning would drive the PK crazy. Pain does do that to people, chronic, ongoing, never-ending pain that cannot be dealt with...and the PK are not trained how to deal with any kind of pain. They are trained to be "tough," sure, but it is an inflexible kind of toughness. Dealing with pain takes a certain flexibility...

And sure, Crais would think that 2 Johns would be cursive.*grin*His obsession with John led him to ruin his career, place himself outside the society he was born into, make a total pariah of himself, and to top it off, Aeryn is emotionally involved with John, Crais has no chance with her...

Interesting conversation.

Fiona, getting sidetracked by the idea of two Bens.........*sigh* Then Fran could have one and so could I?*grin*

[Selena]

Yeah but the problem with 2 Bens is that both of them would want Fran and we'd still be Benless!

[JrMissToughChick]

too true Selena too true *sigh*

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[Judith]

Originally posted by Selena
I don't think we have a clue just how much the clone 'told' Scorpius ... nor just how sinister Scorpius really is.
I'm trying to recall who said what at the Burbank Con but one of the guests made a startling revelation ... (well startling to me anyway) ... they said that if we were starting to accept Scorpius as the good guy (or not such a bad guy) then it was time to up the ante and make him even more sinister... or something to that effect ... no doubt someone will have that actual quote word for word.

Thank you, I thought I was missing out on something everyone else was aware of.

[JrMissToughChick]

Harvey 2.0 is MORE Loyal to Scorpy Remember FieryHands

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[FieryHands]

Oh yeah. He got UPGRADED. Sorta. :D

[SpaceMonkey]

The 2 Johns arc, is what made me love Farscape to begin with-- I'd watched it passignly before that, and enjoyed it in a 'My, that's DIFFERENT' way-- but it was when John got split in two, that I realized just how good Farscape is.

I think harvey's proximity to John & access to John's memories, have given the 'Scoprius default personality' a taste of a happy life in a (mostly) peaceful world .. Harvey is what Scorpy COULD become, if he had a mentor like John.

[JrMissToughChick]

Yeah the Whole Two Johns Story is why I love season Three the most
I think harvey's proximity to John & access to John's memories, have given the 'Scoprius default personality' a taste of a happy life in a (mostly) peaceful world .. Harvey is what Scorpy COULD become, if he had a mentor like John.
I love that John makes everyone he is around "BE MORE"

[FieryHands]

I doubt it. Harvey changed because he had access to John's memories and exists within John's mind. No life on the outside. Scorpius is who he is, formed by the life he'd lived and those experiences. He hasn't "lived" John's memories, hasn't seen what a nice life could be like and I don't think he'd be interested anyway. John isn't at the center of his universe (unlike Harvey, John=world), its the wormhole knowledge in his brain that Scorpius cares about. Revenge will always drive him the way hope keeps John going.

[JrMissToughChick]

I was thinking more if John met Scorpy Before Scorpy Met the PKs He could have been more but Harvey Was Just like Scorpy up untill somewhere in the middle of the third season. Jool Changed, Chiana Changed, Aeryn changed, Dargo changed, Rygel Changed, even Crais changed, But Scorpy no, Sikozu um I'll say no she thought she was good already
John=world
I love that one ;)

Much Love,
~JrMTC~

[FieryHands]

I suppose, if Scorpius was wandering around searching for answers and came across John Crichton somehow, definitely he would be a different person. John does influence people to change and Scorpius has changed because of his interactions with him, but I can't see Scorpius and Harvey being at all alike anymore personality-wise, regardless of what type of syringe is stabbed in John's neck.

Okay, that's an icky image. :yuck:

[NeuralClone]

I suspect Harvey (post-chip) doesn't really have any of Scorpius's memories - or many of them, at least. My theory is he has Scorpy's intellect - but not his fears or passions, remember! - and he probably has some of his knowledge, but it's like having read the book or seen the movie - it doesn't really relate to "him".

If you follow what I'm saying...

Anyway, it would explain why Harvey is so different in temperament from Scorpius, and why - for example - he was so uncertain when asked what Scorpius would do in ItLD.

As for the twinning - I have wild theory, since Farscape likes to play with ideas like URs and quantum physics! - that Karvok "twins" people by reaching into a UR just the tiniest bit separated from our own universe, and pulling an identical "twin" to our person into our universe. Since the difference might be only a microsecond or so in time from us, the "twinned" person doesn't really notice the change in the universe...

(But as Einstein said, it really messes with things!)

[NeuralClone]

Originally posted by FieryHands
I suppose, if Scorpius was wandering around searching for answers and came across John Crichton somehow, definitely he would be a different person.

Try this one - I suspect that if Scorpius had been rescued as a child, and given the same sort of upbringing that John had been given (loving parents, security, siblings, etc.) then Scorpius would have turned out ... rather like John. They do seem to have a lot of underlying similarities.

However, as the twig is bent, etc.... :(

[JrMissToughChick]

Wasn't there a fan fic like that?

~JrMTC~

[brokendj23]

do i speak for everyone on this thread when i say::headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[recklesshumor]

That's the beauty of Farscape, brokendj23, it makes you THINK!! Sometimes until your brain explodes in frustration, but hey ... we can't have everything.

[JadedLegend3]

You know, I was trying to explain this to a friend I've recently scaped, so I dug up this thread, re-read it, and I still don't get it. <sigh> :headbang:

[Nicola]

I suspect Harvey (post-chip) doesn't really have any of Scorpius's memories - or many of them, at least. My theory is he has Scorpy's intellect - but not his fears or passions, remember! - and he probably has some of his knowledge, but it's like having read the book or seen the movie - it doesn't really relate to "him".

If you follow what I'm saying...

Anyway, it would explain why Harvey is so different in temperament from Scorpius, and why - for example - he was so uncertain when asked what Scorpius would do in ItLD.

Actuallly I think he does. In ... Different Destinations Harvey knows a lot about how time travel works. These could only be Scorpy's memories.

HARVEY: All modern research... points to the elasticity of time, rather than a brittle framework.

CRICHTON: Can it be corrected?

HARVEY: Hmm. If nudged closely enough to course... events have a way of restructuring themselves. If the participants are the same, the venue's the same, the motivation's the same, then well... the outcome is likely to be the same.


As for the twinning - I have wild theory, since Farscape likes to play with ideas like URs and quantum physics! - that Karvok "twins" people by reaching into a UR just the tiniest bit separated from our own universe, and pulling an identical "twin" to our person into our universe. Since the difference might be only a microsecond or so in time from us, the "twinned" person doesn't really notice the change in the universe...

(But as Einstein said, it really messes with things!)

Ha! I was thinking something along the same lines. So both Johns are John but from slightly different timelines.

Remember what Chiana said after she had been twinned:

CHIANA: Two... two of me. Two... forked!

A forked timeline? Works for me. :D

[NeuralClone]

Actuallly I think he does. In ... Different Destinations Harvey knows a lot about how time travel works. These could only be Scorpy's memories.

HARVEY: All modern research... points to the elasticity of time, rather than a brittle framework.

CRICHTON: Can it be corrected?

HARVEY: Hmm. If nudged closely enough to course... events have a way of restructuring themselves. If the participants are the same, the venue's the same, the motivation's the same, then well... the outcome is likely to be the same.

Actually, I was referring to Scorpy's "personal" memories in my post above - the sense that "I" {Scorpius} "remember doing this", or that "I" {Scorpius} "remember experiencing that". Harvey can know the latest theories of time travel, or even know how Scorpius spent his childhood - but not necessarily remember learning those theories as Scorpius, or remember experiencing that childhood.

Hope you get the distinction I'm trying to make!

[Nicola]

Actually, I was referring to Scorpy's "personal" memories in my post above - the sense that "I" {Scorpius} "remember doing this", or that "I" {Scorpius} "remember experiencing that". Harvey can know the latest theories of time travel, or even know how Scorpius spent his childhood - but not necessarily remember learning those theories as Scorpius, or remember experiencing that childhood.

Hope you get the distinction I'm trying to make!

Yes, I get it. He does remember them, he just doesn't remember them as having happened to him. I think you are saying that Harvey's own memories start with when he was injected into John Crichton's brain?

Or would you say that Harvey's own memories start after the neural clone is removed?

[Moya's Starburst]

I thought that the Harvey thing was created by using some of Scorpiuses dna, and injecting that into the chip??? it does contain his personality after all, so the same goes for the Twinned John, all it took was the same dna and when he was inside the "airbag" like device it seperated the dna in two creating the same person, bit like breaking a mirror in half the same mirror but two separate pieces.