Who would you consider Crichtons first kill? [spoilers for season 1 entire]

[JrMissToughChick]

Um I had to ask sorry about the poll.

~JrMTC~

[FieryHands]

As far as I can tell (being half a sleep and all) Larraq is his first real kill. Tauvo was an accident, Haesan he was possessed so he wasn't responsible for his actions, the drak, he just didn't know any better. But Larraq, he knew exactly what he was doing. The commando dude just stabbed his friend, someone he's grown particularly fond of and if he escapes, will infect the universe. So yeah, Larraq is probably the first kill with intent. Funny how that happens one episode prior to his encounter with Scorpius. The winds were a changin' in ABL, alright.

Great ep. Larraq rocked!

[atlantagirl]

Although I agree with Fiery Hands reasoning about Crichton's first "intentional" kill. I'd still have to go with Tauvo as his first kill and the baby drak as his second and Haesan as his third. Even if he was back on Earth and had run someone down in a fatal car accident, I think it would have left an emotional scar (I still remember a chipmunk I ran over many years ago). So I believe that, even though he had absolutely no control over it, the death of Tauvo was traumatic for Crichton -- although he didn't really have time to process it at that moment. It certainly became an "issue" once Crais came into the picture.

And it's true he didn't fully realize what he was doing at the time that he killed the baby drak, but he soon did realize what he'd done and regretted it. He blamed himself and accepted that he shouldn't have killed it. Likewise, even though he wasn't "responsible" for killing Haesan, he felt responsible so it was yet another emotional wound.* Maybe all these actions primed the pump for his ultimate first intentional kill. But in WSS (I think?) where he's mentally counting up all the people he's killed in since he got to the Uncharted Territories, I bet he includes Tauvo and Haesan and even the baby drak.

*SPOILERS FOR S2



















Just like when Harvey kills Aeryn and Tocot tells Crichton that he's not responsible because of the neural chip in his head. Crichton says of course he's responsible.

[FieryHands]

Then the question is, are we talking first kill or first victim? I assume if you say kill, its an act of intent to take another's life. (i.e Legolas and Gimli counting their number of kills during battle) But if you say victim, then you're right Tauvo was the first to die because of John. Obviously John feels guilty for every death, its just a matter of whether he meant to kill each person or not. Larraq's the only person on the list John went out of his way to murder fully aware of the consequences. John wouldn't have killed the drak had he realized it was someone's offspring and an intelligent lifeform. He was just being a big human sissy.

[atlantagirl]

You're right. It is just a matter of semantics. I just think that, in his own mind and soul, Crichton carries the burden of responsibility for having killed each of these people, regardless of whether or not the intent was actually there. I think that he internalizes the pain of having killed them whether he had a justification for it or not (and probably even more so where the intent was absent specifically because he didn't have a reason to kill them).

I guess what it really comes down to is that I'm answering (imo) who Crichton would feel was his first kill. Of course that wasn't the question (had that problem on tests too!), and I agree with your reasoning as to who those of us outside of Crichton's head would consider his first "kill" -- meaning the first person who he intentionally killed.

[atlantagirl]

S1 Spoilers












I would also say that Crichton had a hand in "killing" Namtar in DNA Mad Scientist. It's true the creature continued to live, but it was no longer Namtar. And I'd say Crichton had intent to eliminate Namtar however he could, and would have simply blasted him if he could have.

[FieryHands]

True in a sense he "died", but I doubt John has any regrets about that particular alien's fate. ;)

But I don't think he'd count as an actual kill though.

[JrMissToughChick]

Originally posted by FieryHands
True in a sense he "died", but I doubt John has any regrets about that particular alien's fate. ;)

But I don't think he'd count as an actual kill though. I think he had more regrets over Tauvo and Haesan than Namtar and Larraq but thats just me.

~JrMTC~

[atlantagirl]

Originally posted by FieryHands
True in a sense he "died", but I doubt John has any regrets about that particular alien's fate. ;)

But I don't think he'd count as an actual kill though.

I agree. I don't think he had any regrets about decommissioning Namtar. ;)

[FieryHands]

I think he had more regrets over Tauvo and Haesan than Namtar and Larraq but thats just me.

Okay, I'm wondering if John regrets killing Larraq at all. It was the virus that killed Larraq's team and stabbed Aeryn. Does John put the blame on Larraq because he had the knife, or does he just consider him another causality of the incident? Or because Larraq's job was to find the nasty thing in the first place, he dug his own grave?

I'm guessing John's own feelings of culpability in regards to Haesan's death probably were reflected on Larraq. But does regret killing him? I'd like to think so, but that's assuming he separates the virus from the Peacekeeper.

[atlantagirl]

I'd be very surprised if Crichton didn't feel regret over the necessity to kill Larraq and if he didn't view Larraq as another victim of the virus. I don't think he would have any remorse about killing the virus, and it ultimately was convenient that Larraq was killed as well because that left no PK involvement, but I don't believe he would have killed Larraq for convenience sake if he had not be infected by the virus.

[Clarsax]

I voted for Tauvo mainly because it was Crichton's first kill, accident or not. Even if John hadn't meant it, Tauvo died because of John's actions and so in that way John did kill him.

[Darth Buddha]

Frell this whole "John's Victims" nonsense. In every case, though John would probably not agree, we can probably call it accidental death or justifiable homicide.

The victim thing with Scorpius is equally misleading... in MOST cases his actions would be decided in a military court (most appropriate) and only a few of his actions wouldn't similarly be let off.

Crais has more troubles... especially in the case of Lt. Tieg (sp) where a military or civilian court would call it murder.

What I WILL say about John is that he has become very callous to killing. Not so much as say Scorpy, Aeryn, or Crais (perhaps even D'Argo), but he is not the naive "can't we all get along here" human that came through the wormhole. That's the whole basis of his fits of Hamlet style introspection.

And actually Tauvo hit an unpowered vehicle... it was simply an obstacle, like a stalled car. In most states, HE would be at fault in that accident, not John.

And he didn't kill Namtar. He returned him to his "natural state" after he had been experimented on (even though some of this was Namtar himself)... ethically you might argue he did Namtar a favor.

What we really need here is a model of some sort...

Justifiable Killing

Accidental Killin (no fault)

Involuntary Manslaughter/Accidental Killing with Fault...

And so on.

I am sure we have legal types who could do a far better job than I with such things!

[Free Soup]

This is the first "kill", not the first deliberate death, and so it's Crais's brother that counts. It wasn't intentional, but it would not have happened unless John hadn't just "dropped in".

[Farscape Forever]

I don't know did he kill before he got shot through the wormhole... maybe an ant or something? :D

I'd go with Crais's brother though too..

[blue]

"I don't know did he kill before he got shot through the wormhole... maybe an ant or something?" Well, we certainly know he was the consumer of many a fine chicken. Would they have died anyway? I suppose it depends on whether they were from the supermarket or the farm of someone he knew.
:rollin:

[Darth Buddha]

Originally posted by blue
"I don't know did he kill before he got shot through the wormhole... maybe an ant or something?" Well, we certainly know he was the consumer of many a fine chicken. Would they have died anyway? I suppose it depends on whether they were from the supermarket or the farm of someone he knew.
:rollin:
:clap:

[Nicola]

Don't forget...Crichton was in a head-on collison when he was a teenager. We don't know if anyone died as a result of that crash...

[JrMissToughChick]

Hmm.. good points but I'm pretty sure he didn't because when his mom said he'd killed he acted like she wouldn't know so I don't think he killed whille on earth... unless you count meat as murder? I'm a vegetarian but I don't so I doubt I'd be counting it.

[Jeff O'Connor]

I've always counted everything as something in life... I get where everyone is coming from but I picked Tauvo, because as it's been stated, if John didn't end up where he was, the man wouldn't have died. It might not've been deliberate but I'm sided with the "kill means kill" party here, myself.

[ComfyChair]

For me, it's more significant to consider when he seemed to show satisfication, and not remorse, at his first face to face kill.

Spoilers for Season 2










In Crackers Don't Matter, he seemed pretty happy about killing T'raltixx. And did he really have to kill him, or could they have just incapacitated and dumped him? Were they actually under an immediate threat of death, like they were in A Bug's Life? To me, that's the first shocking moment that shows Crichton has gone off to darker places. But then I guess you could argue that he wasn't totally himself. But is he ever really himself again after Scorpius gets a hold of him. I guess that's more than a Season 1 discussion question. :)

[JrMissToughChick]

Spoilers season two

















































I agree with you because he realy killed him because he was mad at him more than anything, he says somthing like this whill he was killing him, "I told them not to bring you an board" but it was a season one Question ;)

[Doc Holiday]

I'd have to say Tauvo.

[Scaper_S]

*****POSSIBLE SPOILERS SEASON 1 & 2*****



Well, to completely frell everything up, I can't choose any from the poll, because I look at the choices given as being beyond his control (e.g. Larraq is dead because of the virus). I think his first cold blooded killling was T'raltixx - John looked like he enjoyed that one. They could have just got rid of T'raltixx by leaving him on a planet or something, but John chose to kill him and the others helped. Then we have John's mass murder when he decided to blow up the Gammak base with the others help - but I not sure if he had the idea to blow it up originally and he was prepared to sacrifice himself to do it. Just my views.

[so-much-4-sanity]

Well, I think that his first kill is actually Moldas (sp?). At the time that John dispersed him, after Zhann made him corporeal, he thought they killed him. This is evidenced in the conversation that D'Argo and Aeryn had with Zhann once back on Moya.

I really think he felt Haesan's/Larraq's death more strongly, though; the pain on his face in ABL when they go back to Zhann's apothecary is etched in his eyes. Also, when Aeryn wakes up in the tag, he is holding the bar he used to kill her with.

We don't see John emoting over Larraq's death but we have to remember, too, the things that effect John the most he has a tendency not to talk about or deal with.

A scene that effects me, for so many reasons, possible Season 2 spoilers...
























...is in WGFA when his mom confronts him on his killing saying it's the reason why he can't sleep at night. That's a great insight into the character that we don't see on screen.

[JrMissToughChick]

Originally posted by so-much-4-sanity
A scene that effects me, for so many reasons, possible Season 2 spoilers...
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...is in WGFA when his mom confronts him on his killing saying it's the reason why he can't sleep at night. That's a great insight into the character that we don't see on screen. That's probaly my favorite scene in Farscape history

[PKTechDude]

I would say Crais's brother was Crichton's first "kill," even though it was a complete accident. Not only that but those first few seconds in the Uncharted Territories changed Crichton's life forever.