Which one of them do you think is the real Crichton?

[JrMissToughChick]

This is a stupid question for me to ask meaning I always thought "Nither" of them were the real Crichton... I am a strong beleaver in the ameba type theory the original died in the creation of the twin Johns but I wanted to know what others thought about the subject.

~JrMTC~

[Afarscapefan]

Just to encourage discussion and to be contrary, I think they are both real, identical, exactly the same, just in different environments. One with Aeryn on Talyn and one without Aeryn on Moya. Now look at the difference she made. One is a hero and the other is a wuss.

[NebariNookiee]

I firmly believe that neither of them are the original. The one true Crichton simply no longer exists.

[Clarsax]

I also believe it was like the ameboa type theory, but I always thought of it like cell division. One cell divides into two completely identical daughter cells, both of which are real, individual, and new entities, while the original parent cell ceases to exist.

[Riot Chik]

Both of them are real . . . and niiiiiice to look at. :aok:

[Afarscapefan]

But nobody ever dies -completely ceases to exist - on Farscape.

They just fail to get resuscitated!!!

Except for the ones who end up on the tragedy list, like Larroq and Gillina, and maybe the ones on the critter kill list, but they are only extras, just in there for the statistics.

[FieryHands]

John Crichton, as the original ceased to exist in Eat Me. Moya John and Talyn John appeared in his place and Moya John continues to live as the original Crichton. All three are real, just one is the original and by default, Moya John is considered the only one of consequence, simply because he was alive.

[natira's hairdresser]

O.K, so no-one really seems to die in Farscape, but hey, isn't that part of the fun????
Remember the old days of Star Trek, when you could tell which characters were marked as cannon fodder by the colour of their uniforms???
It was kinda quaint, but farscape is more unpredictable which is part of its charm. It adds to the "mysticism" of the show that main characters die but are able to come back one way or another. We still don't really know where Zhaan ended up, or what lasting effects there are for Aeryn or John having died and come back again....all good reasons to BRING IT BACK NOW!!!!:whip:

[Deletham]

Originally posted by FieryHands
John Crichton, as the original ceased to exist in Eat Me. Moya John and Talyn John appeared in his place and Moya John continues to live as the original Crichton. All three are real, just one is the original and by default, Moya John is considered the only one of consequence, simply because he was alive.

That's exactly how i thought of it. Even though they both were exact copies of the original I believed that Moya John was considered more of an original in my heart since he lived his life like the original... and then ultimately of course since Talyn John died the solidified it.

[MrX]

I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense. The original being destroyed for two new original beings. I'd always thought of both being the original. I don't know.

[Patrel Rushlock]

The villian from "Eat Me" (name?) states that after multiple "twining" that they become mentally deficeint. This makes me think that a "twins" are less than the whole maybe?


Anyway, to answer the question I stick with the "neither" option.

[vhsiv]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick
This is a stupid question for me to ask meaning I always thought "Nither" of them were the real Crichton... I am a strong beleaver in the ameba type theory the original died in the creation of the twin Johns but I wanted to know what others thought about the subject. A 'witch'?

Would that be one of Maldus' colleagues? Did I miss an episode somewhere? I've got all 88 episodes on DVD, and I don't recall seeing an episode with a 'witch' in any of them - neither do I recall any episodes with a 'nither' in it...

[JadedLegend3]

I like to think that the one we have now is the original.

PS-JrMissToughChick, I know you know this, but your spelling is deplorable! ;) :D

[JrMissToughChick]

Yeah. I know.

[Deletham]

Originally posted by Patrel Rushlock
The villian from "Eat Me" (name?) states that after multiple "twining" that they become mentally deficeint. This makes me think that a "twins" are less than the whole maybe?


In response to that I think that the first "copies" of the original are exact copies, yet like with copying with a copy machine if you were to copy from a copy it'd be worse ((Darker or whatever))than a copy of the original which I believe to be practically perfect.

[nemanjic]

Is someone here knows difference between human body and human soul! It is not matter which Chrichton died, only thing that is important is that his soul is still alive no matter in what body.

[Selena]

Just curious MJTC, did you really mean this thread to be called "Witch on of them do you think is the real Crichton?"

or were you really trying to say ... "Which one of them do you think is the real Crichton?"

[JrMissToughChick]

I can't spell I think I started this thread like a week after I started posting but "Which one of them do you think is the real Crichton?" sounds right... sorry

[Nessus]

They're both definitely the same, perfect Crichtons. I mean, Aeryn falls in love with both of 'em, and you know that smokin peacekeeper ain't gonna have no fake Crichton as her baby' daddy!:D

[Diania]

Originally posted by Clarsax
I also believe it was like the ameboa type theory, but I always thought of it like cell division. One cell divides into two completely identical daughter cells, both of which are real, individual, and new entities, while the original parent cell ceases to exist.

This is exactly how I thought of it. When I saw the blob in Eat Me, it split into two, exactly like cell division. Two Chrichtons that can each go on their different path, have new experiences, and become different people. This is why I have faith in the Tabula Rasa theory. Born with a clean slate, everyone becomes the way they are because of their environment and learning experience.

[Doc Holiday]

I want to believe that Moya John was the original and Talyn John is a clone.

[chasa]

I think they are both John Crichton, plain and simple. Believing that one is the "real" John diminishes all that comes afterward (at least for me).

[LewBall]

In response to that I think that the first "copies" of the original are exact copies, yet like with copying with a copy machine if you were to copy from a copy it'd be worse ((Darker or whatever))than a copy of the original which I believe to be practically perfect.

Exactly what my thoughts on the subject were for the degrading mental state of the more than two timed twins.

As for the who is real, who isn't. I believe in the viewer's perspective it strongly puts out that amoeba vibe to it. Although there are also the perspective's of the shipmates (which Aeryn points later in the series). The people around MJohn, whether stated or not, come to believe MJohn is the real John, though Aeryn is strongly vested in the belief that TJohn was the real deal and the other as I believe she would say is, "A shadow".

[Doc Holiday]

That is what made Season 3 so cool.

[LewBall]

Yup, but it's no second half of Season 4.

[Doc Holiday]

Nope Season 4 is untouchable in drama. Until Peacekeeper Wars.

[LewBall]

You know I was thinking why people sometimes have alot of trouble thinking that both Chrictons are completely equal when first twinned (especially on a person's first run-through of the series). I came to think that almost every other TV series that does the twinning or multiples of the main character have it that one is almost always a clone or an inferior being. It's more an issue of conditioning rather than believing what the dude in "Eat Me" said.

[Spedoinkel]

Just to encourage discussion and to be contrary, I think they are both real, identical, exactly the same, just in different environments. One with Aeryn on Talyn and one without Aeryn on Moya. Now look at the difference she made. One is a hero and the other is a wuss.
This is what I think as well.

To elaborate. John Crighton is twinned. In that the matter is duplicated. niether is an original, or a clone, there is just more of it now. It's like when you meat yourself in an alternate reality, you don't question who is real because you both are. There is just one more Crighton in this reality. Now to cover the mental deficiant thing. We say that though the matter, the body is doubled, the soul is shared between the two. So each is missing a part of the other. Memories and instincts are the same, since thay are implanted on the brain.
So one Crighton after the twinning thinks, "I am me. Who am I?" While the other thinks, "I am me. Who is this guy?"

[Doc Holiday]

Very good way of putting it.

[Spedoinkel]

Thank you.

[Doc Holiday]

I think one reason it is so hard to except is because of what some people had already seen in "My Three Crichtons"

[stellar]

The one on the left.

[Afarscapefan]

Hi stellar. Could you clarify that?

How do you know the one on the left is right?

;)

Hi Doc. "My Three Crichtons" was a different process because the "copies" were clearly different to the original.

What I had in the back of my mind in "Eat Me" was that one was going to be good and the other bad - one the original, one the copy; which would have been the usual by the numbers story; but Farscape always has to have a creative twist. So JrMissToughChick's question is a good one "What the frell is going on with Crichton?"

:eek:

[Afarscapefan]

My apologies Doc Holiday I think I missed the point you made when I first replied. "My Three Crichtons" could throw a spanner in the works. It depends where you are coming from. I will try to explain where I am coming from.

Which one of them, Moya John or Talyn John, is the real Crichton? Just like the show there isn't a simple choice between two. There are four complicated answers: neither, Moya John, Talyn John and both.
neither because the real Crichton died 'to give birth' to twin Johns: miracles, marvels and mysteries
Moya John because he survived, survival of the fittest, Crichton is a survivor
Talyn John because he is Aeryn's choice, a woman's intuition, shippers choice, grab another box of tissues
both because the real Crichton was duplicated, two for the price of one.

Get out your crayons. I label my Crichtons with colours.

I know I picked the last but I can relate to 'neither' in that I liked the original white T-shirt tourist persona of the original Season 1 real Crichton, the best out of all the Crichtons. After the twinning, the Crichtons seemed more alien somehow IMO but at least they were better than the previous mad Hamlet Season 2 persona which I didn't like at all though at least he was still human then. (Brilliant bit of acting pulled it off though!!) I found Eat Me traumatic and it did feel like the Season 1 real Crichton had 'died' by this episode.

Moya John. I think the green T-shirt Crichton, green for jealous of Talyn John,
is a wuss. What a loser! He is right in there with the guys who don't get what they want crowd. Since this is about 80% of the male population and I'm in this 80% (see Pareto's principle), I can identify with this Moya John. I like him. I could pick this one.

Talyn John. I think black T-shirt Crichton, black the T-shirt code for John in danger, is the shipper's choice. And the choice of the remaining 20% of guys. He is the hero after all. How do explain my dislike of Talyn John? This might be a small point but sometimes small points have big ramifications in Farscape. Moya John volunteered to give his blood to save Talyn Johns life; IMO I have a gut feeling that Talyn John did not share the same empathy for his twin and was more out for himself. I can't support this allegation. Just that as I mentioned in my previous post, at that time I was looking the good twin evil twin dichotomy and started this prejudice from this point, so when I first saw these episodes, possibly, I saw something in it that wasn't actually there. I don't think Farscape did it by numbers but the prejudice remains. So if you didn't share my reservation you could easily have picked this one.

both real Crichtons. Since Farscape doesn't explain technical details and leaves that to us to think things through, that's the way we like it, it leaves this question open to interpretation. Since Jool could not pick the difference then I chose this one. I don't know whether to accept Jool's explanation as the last word or not. As natira's hairdresser said Farscape is unpredictable.

Now for My Three Crichtons. I put this in a completely different box. The Eat Me cloning raises the question " Are the clones different?" The My Three Crichtons cloning is about human evolution and asks "What will Crichton be like in the future?" Could have been made for a Psychology 101 or Biology 101 course. The ape-like Crichton was more empathetic with the group and less intellectual than the advanced Crichton, who was more intellectual and less sympathetic to others.

I think I'm done for now JrMissToughChick et al. Thanks for sharing. Remember spelling is easy. The rule is simple: 'i' before 'e' except after 'c' and also except their and theirs and also except all the variations of theism including atheism and we don't mention the others because the rule is starting to get complicated and it wouldn't be simple anymore.
;)

[FenjaH]

I think they are identical, perfectly twinned.
Talyn John was a knight working in honor of a lady who had bestowed who had bestowed favor upon him. I think any man gats a major nerve boost when his mate is threatened or looking on. So John Black acts the loyal knight, dying on the battlefield fighting for his cause.
Moya John is a man bereft of the woman he loves, worse yet, his anger almost has no outlet. Hate himself? It would be quite a mental struggle. A knight without a cause.
Another thing I haven't seen introduced yet is that Dargo and Chianna are both twins as well, their counterparts having been eaten. Do we see any major differences in them? I will have to go back and check, that might explain a more gentle Dargo and a more mature Chi. Anyone already explored this?

[LewBall]

Well after watching Revenging Angel, I'm sure D'argo is not too much gentler, both himself and other people's perceptions of him.

I was thinking that same thing about effects of twinning on D'argo and Chi. An experience like that you would in all likelihood keep locked up and repressed I would think. It's not an easy thing to think about. This could be the source of lots of the conflict between MJohn and D'argo.

D'argo does start getting gentler after Revenging Angel I'm pretty sure as relationship with Jool progresses and things resolve a little with Chiana. It must been quite strange for D'Argo with that scene between him and Chi after the ship just becomes active. He's got a lot going on and doesn't really feel up for sharing it.

[FenjaH]

My point exactly, perfect twins as stated. The Johns simply got dealt different hands. Situations make heroes. Let us not forget, it wasn't Talyn John that hopped on that command carrier or that strapped a nuke to his hip and crashed the Katratzi Con. Alas, it was John Crichton.

[Doc Holiday]

Afarscapefan, nice post and no apology needed. My point was that after seeing "MyThree Crichtons" even I deep down inside wanted to believe that one of the Johns were the original. I do not think this is the case I just want to believe it is. That is the kind of emotion Farscape enthralls us in.

[stellar]

Burn the witch!

[Afarscapefan]

You lot have been busy while my back has been turned.

stellar - Maaaaate (Don't take that the wrong way, I'm an Aussie, I'll call anyone 'maaaaate') Trying to heat up the conversation I see. Let's not 'burn the witch'. Let's drop a horse on her, just like in the "Lizard of Oz".

Doc Holiday - Maaaaate Thanks for the compliment. It appears that we will have to agree to disagree on the original John issue. though To snurch an X-philes saying, after all you have seen, why won't you believe? The truth is out there.

FenjaH - Maaaaate Welcome aboard the FMD. The old nurture versus nature concept. I like it. I hadn't thought much about the twins of Chi and D'Argo. That's a good point. According to some scapers on this thread that means both the original Chi and D'Argo died as well. Scary.

Lewball - Maaaate Another newbie! Welcome aboard. Luxans appear to take longer to mature than other species so he is still a teenager at heart despite the fact that he is the father to Jothee. I think that is the chief source of conflict between MJohn and D'Argo has more to do with male bonding or lack of it. Still anyone would be psychologically disturbed seeing their twin getting eaten or just going through the process of being twinned. So that traumatic experience works just as well as the other.

[Boron]

I got to watch "Eat me" and "Thanks for sharing" again last night, and, as always, I saw something I didn't catch before. One of the Johns asked Jool to test the DNA from the original to find out which one was the clone, and which one was real. When she finally got done, She told the one who had asked that the original was no more, and that both of them were separate and identical. This, (to me) was borne out when upon the return to Moya, both of them were playing "rock paper scissors" and they kept matching each other the whole time. They were not the original, but two separate and identical beings.

[FenjaH]

And hello to you Afar. Thank you for the welcome. :-)
I think the concept was ingenious really. Twins an all...
And I do appreciate you breaking down to the Nat vs. Nurt basics, good insight.
It seems that they were exact duplicates for how ever long it took until they received any sensory stimulii. At that moment the two separate, but identical minds ceased to be identical, the flow of life, and situations, dictated the growth and character of each John as a new individual.
Fortunately, one croaked. It makes life much simpler. Plus everyone on Farscape has to die now and then, heh heh, it's almost a requirement.
Hey Afar... what part of Australia do live in?

[chasa]

This, (to me) was borne out when upon the return to Moya, both of them were playing "rock paper scissors" and they kept matching each other the whole time. They were not the original, but two separate and identical beings.

Further interesting to me is the scene after TJohn's death, when his holographic image plays rock, paper, scissors with MJohn in Fractures. And here I'm just rambling, by the way, so feel free to stop reading now ;)

When I first watched that scene, it looked visually to me that they finally *didn't* match each other -- which made sense because, even though they started out as identical, their separate experiences would have shaped them and it would therefore make sense that they finally don't end up in a draw. But then I read some impressions from others about that last RPS game...and went back and freeze-framed the DVD...and I'm not so sure that it wasn't a tie after all. And that, too, would make sense -- that despite their different experiences since having been twinned, they were still the same man at the core, with the same hopes, loves, desires and concerns. Either way (and I do think I like the "tie" interpretation better), I think that's a beautiful and heartbreaking scene.

[LewBall]

Y
Lewball - Maaaate Another newbie! Welcome aboard. Luxans appear to take longer to mature than other species so he is still a teenager at heart despite the fact that he is the father to Jothee. I think that is the chief source of conflict between MJohn and D'Argo has more to do with male bonding or lack of it. Still anyone would be psychologically disturbed seeing their twin getting eaten or just going through the process of being twinned. So that traumatic experience works just as well as the other.

Thanks for the welcome man. Yeah, you have to keep in mind Luxan maturity alot because even Zhaan said that D'argo is just but a youth in Premiere. It's kind of strange watching alot of scenes with D'argo and thinking he's a teenager just trying to be a man, in Season 1 & 2 anyway. D'argo after his ordeals and trials with Chiana and Jothee is a man in Season 3 on I think. Later dude.

:smokin:

[pkgrl]

Great discussion! I thought this one had already been beaten to death, but I guess I was wrong! (shock!)

I always took the word of the ptb and just put the "both are original" label on both Johns. 'Nuff said. The gods had spoken.

The amoeba theory hadn't even occurred to me, but what an intriguing concept it is! Obviously John changed between season one (white John, to use Afarscapefan's definition) and season three's Eat Me, but he was still alive, still the original John Crichton.

And when Jool came back with the test results, she said, "You're both perfect, if that's the right word, copies of the original Crichton." I think Jool would argue for the amoeba theory, but me?

I like the arguments for "both" and "neither" equally. I think I'm leaning toward "neither" now, but mostly because if I were twinned, right now, I don't think I could call either result me... even though they would. ;)

Man, it's a good thing most Scapers a smart, or this discussion would be REALLY frelling confusing! :eek:

Afarscapefan: Are you going to be at OzScape in April? If so, see ya then! :bigwave:

[Afarscapefan]

Afarscapefan: Are you going to be at OzScape in April? If so, see ya then! :bigwave:

... NOT if I see you first.
:ewink:

( Afar notices that the paranoid mode switch was left on and quickly flicks it before anyone can see him.)

(Cut! - keep rolling! - take 2! - action!)

Wild budongs couldn't keep me away from OzScape. I would love to meet up with scapers at OzScape especially my friends from the FMD! It's so close to home!!

Back to the topic. Just when you thought it had been beaten to death. It springs back to life. Yes the "neither" side does appear to have stronger argument but I will attempt to address that now.

I know I'm preaching to the converted. Farscape is not 'a work of art'; it's a 'MasterPiece'. A work of art is inspirational and changes your mood; a masterpiece inspires you to change into a better person. Masterpieces work on several levels and that is why the simple question can lead to so many different interpretations depending on the level that you are on. A masterpiece may take the freeze framing photofinish analysis to squeeze out the maximum amount of entertainment whereas a work of art would fall apart.

Crichton is a complex character. But IMO there is only one Crichton, except when there are two or three. Overall the apparently different Crichtons are different aspects of the same personality in different situations. This is made even more complicated as his character develops over time.

For my own benefit I colour code my Crichtons just to keep track. I like the red Crichton, from A Bug's Life, when he was taken over by that English Nazi persona. He was so evil he still gives me the creeps. Then there is the shirtless Crichton - for the macho mountain man, pink Crichton - for the sexy lover and so on. ( I know he doesn't actually wear pink ,it is just a label; anyway everytime he 'makes love' he seems to wear something different (or nothing at all!) just to confuse my colour code system.) My point being they are only different aspects of the one complex person.

Does he die? I always prefer to view it as a just in time resuscitation because in my mind it preserves the continuity of the character. As an analogy I will put forward a grub to butterfly metamorphosis - there were cocoons. If someone prefers to interpret it as death and then born again reincarnation, resurrection, amoebic mitosis or whatever that's cool too. The scenes are deliciously inconclusive so as to take it any way you want and at the same time the scenes are designed for us to fill in the details for ourselves. Typically science fiction has spoon fed its fans which means you accept it or spit it out. Farscape is different it gives just enough information to whet your appetite to seek more.

Well I feel I have really beaten this topic to death this time. Will someone revive it so we can beat it up some more? Or maybe this topic is like that itch everytime you scratch it you want to scratch it some more.

Lastly I don't think you have to be smart to watch Farscape. Some smart people might "get it" the first time they see it but it usually takes me a few viewings for the penny to drop. I've got mates who watch it just for Claudia or Gigi. One fan I know just likes to turn it on, enjoy it and turn it off. The 'psychiatry' leaves her cold. The only sad people are the people who don't "get it" and give up watching Farscape altogether.

[FenjaH]

"How big can the mini be? I'm excited!!!"
My fear is that 4 hours can be so short. As much as I anticipate the viewing, I dread seeing the credits roll. Bittersweet.
awww hell...
I bet it is gonna be awesome!

[Lost Like Me]

My point exactly, perfect twins as stated. The Johns simply got dealt different hands. Situations make heroes.
In my first time viewer mind, I thought of them as equals. I never thought either was particularly more heroic than the other. T'John simply had the benefit of living the dream of both, having the love of Aeryn. And you know, the love of a good woman always brings out the best in a man. ;)

Aeryn told dead T'John at the end of The Choice that she thought she could've been different if he had lived, but she gave up trying since he was dead and went back to warrior chic mode. I think the same applies to M'John. He would have been different if he'd had Aeryn.

The way I see it, equal guys, but different situations ultimately made them who they were.

[monochromegirlxx]

I want to believe that Moya John was the original and Talyn John is a clone.

I want to believe the same thing. I have trouble with the whole "twinning" thing... I don't know why, maybe cause I haven't seen all of season three, but there's just something... I dunno. While I cried & cried when Talyn!John died, I just kept thinking about the other John, and how he was "the real John".

I also have a theory about the whole John thing. Did anyone else notice that the Talyn!John kept getting critically injured while the other Crichton was mostly fine, until Talyn!John's death? I just kept noticing that, right away.

I dunno. The twinning thing just rubs me the wrong way.

[Spedoinkel]

Well, TJ was in a more hostile situation.

[monochromegirlxx]

True, but John previous to the twinning had a plenty hard enough time not getting beat up on Moya.