GOP students launch complaint Web site

[fermicat]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/21/students.website.ap/index.html

Can those of you who are current college students shed some light on this? Is this really a problem?

There was no detectable liberal bias (or any other polical bias) at my alma mater Georgia Tech when I went there (1984-1992), but I was studying mostly science and math and it is pretty hard to insert any sort of bias into those subjects.

I don't think it is a bad thing to be exposed to different perspectives while in college. You are supposed to be learning to think for yourself.

[stellar]

The same here. I studied math and science. Hardly any room for bias. It's difficult to blame Clinton or Bush for the lack of homogenous sub-atomic particles in the universe.

History and Political Science courses are probably the most likely courses to have political bias. That is unavoidable. The only thing to do would be to list the teacher's political affiliation so that students can choose if they want to learn from a liberal or a conservative.

[Judith]

Yes. There is a problem. I'm democrat (although somewhat moderate) and it bothers me that so much class time is wasted on teacher rantings about politics that are totally unrelated to the class. Now I have no problem with healthy political discussions as they related to the class. But I have teachers who rant about the current administration. There are times when I disagree with them, and I'm not comfortable even talking about viewpoints in those classes because those teachers are so emphatic and closed minded. They cannot entertain the notion that someone could disagree with them and be a worthwhile person. Obviously since they're in a position of power over me, I can't really argue. It might affect my grade. And I have seen other students keeping quiet, looking as uncomfortable as I am.

And everyone who does this is left leaning. I know professors and TAs who are conservative and who are encouraged ny their bosses not to discuss their political leanings because it might make the students uncomfortable. Whereas the left teachers can go as a far as they want in a political conversation.

As a solution. I would really be uncomfortable with an all inclusive policy that was as prohibitive towards liberal teachers as it currently is to conservative teachers. Rather, when political discussions seem to benefit the class, I would rather see a more evenhanded approach to discussion.

I could give specifics, but that would be approaching banned topics.

[AgentSun]

the issue here is not that there is poltical bias in the classroom but that political bias is everywhere and in a lot of colleges across the country, the predominant thought is liberal (or democratic if you prefer a more obvious term). i go to a private christian university. i may get a distinctly Christian viewpoint in my education but i prefer both sides and a lot of my professors understand this and try to present both sides equally, though also stating the reasons why based on the bible, a view is not necessarily correct.

this is what i highly dislike about the article:

Travis Leiker, 22, president of the College Democrats at CU, said classrooms are full of different perspectives. "I think the conservative students who feel there is a bias are more afraid of hearing points of view different from their own," he said.

the problem i have with that is that its easy to say "they're just afraid of something else that disagrees" but where is the evidence to suggest that there really IS a full range of perspectives. all he states is "yes there are different perspectives" when the article never presents any accounts that back up that statement. you can't prove that there aren't mostly "democratic" views in a class setting, just like the article can't prove that the classroom is not presenting conservative views as well as liberal ones.

basically, in my opinion, the article goes absolutely nowhere. it doesn't inform the reader that there is a problem and it doesn't say that there isn't. all it does is state that the CU College Republicans are filing a complaint. it doesn't state any evidence that their complaint is or is not justified.

now, they mention harassment and discrimination. the problem here is that they're not stating WHO is discriminating or harassing these students. they are vague about how they are being discriminated or harassed. one may say that the liberal viewpoint is getting more money and that liberal organizations are getting more funding, but thats nowhere in the article. if the complaints are directed at the fact that a lot of conservative students feel that their viewpoints are being "attacked" by liberal students, then this is not an academic matter, it is a personal and a student matter. its like one kid pushing another on the playground. you can sternly warn kids to never do it again, but sooner or later you're going to look away and it'll happen.

[Otto the Mild]

Originally posted by fermicat

There was no detectable liberal bias (or any other polical bias) at my alma mater Georgia Tech when I went there (1984-1992), but I was studying mostly science and math and it is pretty hard to insert any sort of bias into those subjects.


Tech here, too. 1982-1986.

I remember a Dr. McMath who seemed fairly leftist, but he was counterbalanced by all the guys in the physics department who were more than a little conservative (and who can blame them, what with all of the defence contracts they were getting).

I actually taught poli sci at one point in my life (money wasn't important to me...how naive!). I tried very hard to conceal my political biases, since I recognized that A) I don't have a monopoly on the truth and B) The whole point of a college education is to teach you how to think, not what to think. Alas, there are a lot of mediocre types who are big into brainwashing (on both sides).

On an amusing note, on my last day a student came to me and told me there had been a long-running betting pool on my party affiliation. When I told her, she laughed and said she'd just won a fair amount of money. Apparently, I had done my acting a little too well.

[SaraD]

I was a professor at the University of Michigan for ten years, in linguistics and creative writing. My personal experience is that many students are uncomfortable with any strongly stated opinion, and that they are almost paralyzed by the idea of conflict in the classroom. The students who were free of this problem were the ones who dominated discussions, because they were willing and able to disagree with me (or an essay, or a text) openly, which led to good (if sometimes quite turbulent) discussions. Which is what was supposed to happen.

I never once, ever, penalized any student for disagreeing with my point of view. However, I often had to work with students (quite a lot of them, actually) who didn't understand the difference between subjective subject matter that required an opinion, and objective subject matter that required logic and analysis and proof.

Did my students know my political leanings? Sure. We talked about things. Did I know theirs? Often, yes, and often we disagreed. But every election I gave bonus points to any student who could show me a "I voted" sticker -- and I never inquired about who they voted for.

Of course there are professors who are narrow minded and egotistical, and those who are unfair. But I do believe they are in the minority.

[Frellster]

Yeah, but the complaining students are from CU Boulder. Boulder is a liberal town, so students are going to hear predominantly liberal biases. If they went to school in Texas, they would hear predominantly conservative views. As long as their voice can be heard as well, and their not graded down for their views, I hardly see the problem.

[ranger1]

i would put myself as conservative, but interested in knowing both sides, b/c sometimes change IS needed. when i was @ the university of illinois (corn country campus), i took a lot of history and philosophy classes (history major/phil. minor). except for a few profs., most were pretty even-handed in getting out all views. i guess i have been trained to understand that it's a VERY rare viewpoint that needs only one 'side' to properly explain it.

i.e., the historical muslims and christians in the crusading years both had their BAD evils and quite good points. but no more history lessons, lest i hijack this thread. :)

it's always hard to feel adequately represented when you're swimming up the 'stream' of opposing viewpoints; in that existing paradigm (sp?), attention-getting behavior appears to be subjectively justified.

[JadedLegend3]

I don't have a problem with hearing about different points of view, as some have said, it helps you to grow as a person, and really that's what college is all about.

However, I have noticed in all my years of schooling (well, probably I didn't notice in the early years! :D ) that my teachers have all been liberal Democrats. I am a Republican. I don't mind hearing what the other side has to say, it's fun to debate and learn where people are coming from. What I do mind is that all of these teachers have graded the students based on their own beliefs (does that make sense?). For example, in my high school american studies class, I wrote a paper on how FDR was of help bringing the US out of the depression, but that it was the war that really did it. I got a D. The next semester, I wrote the same paper for the same prof, but I switched it to say that FDR was the sole reason we came out of the depression and I got an A+. What's up with that?

I've noticed it in college, too. Particularly going to a catholic college. The banned topics are heavily discussed, and if one disagrees, that person is automatically wrong.

Those are the problems I have with this. :shrug:



Jacqui :love:

[AgentSun]

and thats another problem we have in our world today. professors judging solely on the bias that you present is wrong, because it is based on their own opinion. its wrong and it should be brought to the attention of administration. but it may not even do any good since all that professor is going to get is a stern warning to not exert an opinion on a paper that would disagree with the point if view....

with research papers that aren't essays or that are not trying to persuade to one view, i try to present both sides.

[waltersgirl]

And everyone who does this is left leaning. I know professors and TAs who are conservative and who are encouraged ny their bosses not to discuss their political leanings because it might make the students uncomfortable. Whereas the left teachers can go as a far as they want in a political conversation.

that is a current discussion amongst not left-leaning academics, and it was apparently a huge undercurrent at the recent MLA convention.

[waltersgirl]

What I do mind is that all of these teachers have graded the students based on their own beliefs (does that make sense?).

doesn't that suck? i had a constitutional law professor teaching a US History class. he went on this Miranda rant about how he was arrested from a traffic stop because he supposedly looked like a hard core gang member that had just done a robbery and left in a similar vehicle. he was bitching because he says they didn't Mirandize him when they cuffed him.

for one, the guy was in his late 50's, dressed like he just stepped out of a late 60's NASA employee photo, complete with glasses, pens and a pocket protector, and is so white his skin is pasty. i asked him how they could have possibly mistaken him for a hispanic hard core gang member in his early 20's. he wasn't amused.

then i asked him if they questioned him about the so-called robbery when they cuffed him. he said no, rather rudely, to which i replied that they then had no legal obligation to Mirandize him because he wasn't being questioned about the crime and that being handcuffed has nothing to do with Miranda.

all he wanted to do was rant. the problem was that what he was saying was misinformation and i called him on it.

i got a C on my next essay test. it was kinda funny actually.

[stellar]

Again... it's probably a deparmental issue as to which professors are more likely to be left-wing and which are more likely to be right-wing.

Once either side starts spouting off rhetoric, or they over-justify a point - then I just stop listening. You know what they should teach during freshman orientation? Just because they have a Ph.D. doesn't mean that they're not full of dren.

[DRD2001]

I got my first F in my structural geology course in college. My teacher got drunk and broke into my hotel room. I had to call hotel security to kick him out. When I complained, SURPRISE!, I was ignored and got the F. Bad teachers happen, with or without political agendas. The lesson is that life is rarely fair in your favor. Get use to it. :D

[Antrobus]

The article is too vague about what is being said in classrooms that the GOP students are finding offensive. And it doesn't say what they're basing their feelings of discrimination on. What is the standard of which they base this discrimination on.

I would be worried about a blacklist too. Looks like the school needs to have an open forum about the subject and air it all out before it gets where people are posting professors names on the interent and labelling them. Anyone remember the lessons of Salem, Mass.?

I spent 8 years in college and I never remember any professor showing any signs of showing their political side. However, if you're in a liberal arts program, I think that you should be prepared to know that by nature the whole liberal arts community is generally left leaning.

[Antrobus]

http://www.colorado.edu/StudentGroups/CURepublicans/inc/head.png


This is the opening page of their site. They're promoting conservative views, so what's the difference.

And this is their t-shirt

http://www.colorado.edu/StudentGroups/CURepublicans/img/t-shirt-front.jpg

I think they have an agenda as well

[AgentSun]

while the democrats page has a bunch of typos!


See what the wiley Conservatives are claiming now.
Make shure to read Travis our presidents perfect quote.
Is their really a Liberal or Conservative way to teach, Electrical Engineering, Computer Science, are the anatomy of a fly?

i don't know, but they claim that the republicans aren't being discriminated against and here they are calling them "wiley" and misspelling "shure"and using "their" in the wrong way ..i'm sure their president is quite "intelligunt"

[Judith]

Originally posted by Antrobus



This is the opening page of their site. They're promoting conservative views, so what's the difference.



I think they have an agenda as well

Well, of course they have an agenda. They're a student group. It's acceptable for students to form a group promoting a particular set of views. It is not, however, appropriate for a TA, FA, professor, or anyone in power to peddle those views in the classroom. ESPECIALLY if the institution is a public university.

[SweetpeaAeryn]

I just kinda glanced through everyone's responses, but this is what I want to say...

My first year of college I went to Valparaiso University, a Lutheran school. Here my classes were taught by mainly Christians, however, for the most part I never saw anyone who had problems expressing opinions, until they tried to impose them on others. (Mainly centered around religion, however, as opposed to political... although it did happen at times.) I recall feeling VERY welcome to express my views no matter what they were and professors were very open and receptive to that.

I am now at Millikin University, another private college. It's a lot smaller and no longer religiously affiliated. My first history professor here was very conservative and he was EXTREMELY open to debate and discussion and questions. We talked a lot about current issues in relationship to early American history and the rippling effects that can still be seen today.

My professor that I just started with this semester points out a lot of the faults of the American government and tries to tear down the idealistic view that many of us may have of America (a lot of people living in the Midwest seem to think that way, it seems. (BTW: I was born and raised in central IL where I still am.)) This professor also is VERY VERY open to debate and argument. I have only been in his class twice and I already feel very welcome to speak out, even if I disagree as long as I am able to back my answer.

I think what the problem is, is when a student is graded down for holding an opinion opposite of a professor, even when they have adequate factual support. This does unfortunatly happen. However, I am happy to say that I have never had this unpleasent experience. It is extremely unfair to grade a student down for their views becuase I agree that school is where you should learn to think for yourself and formulate your own views.

[SaraD]

Originally posted by Judith_Shakespeare
Well, of course they have an agenda. They're a student group. It's acceptable for students to form a group promoting a particular set of views. It is not, however, appropriate for a TA, FA, professor, or anyone in power to peddle those views in the classroom. ESPECIALLY if the institution is a public university.

you have heard of free speech? it applies to faculty, too -- on campus or off.

[SaraD]

one other point. a low grade might not have anything to do with a stated opinion -- it might have to do with performance. as hard as that might be to admit or accept.

[Darth Buddha]

Same old same old

Well, conservatives in general want to return to an idealized past that never really existed, while liberals are generally closet aristocrats who believe they know better how you should live your life... so I think all of this follows logically.

A university is going to be liberal, because they are about thinking about new ideas. Conservatives don't want to hear new ideas... challenges their cherished illusions and oversimplification of the life, the universe, and everything.

And of course, the traditional liberals (you know the one's who come from wealth like Hillary and the Kennedys) are absolutely unbearable in how they deliver. So, preachy is pretty much a given.

Some of it stems from the absolutely bizarre monolithic "conservative" and "liberal" dichotomy we have in this country.

Would be nice if we could get back to simple fiscal conservatism (which is enlightened and reason) and sever it from social conservatism (it should be good enough that you can live the way you want without forcing your way down everyone else's throats).

And if we could sever socialist thought, womens and minority rights, and environmentalism from traditional liberal arrogance.

Our current conservative/liberal divide has had its chance, it failed, lets move on.

[SaraD]

well said, Buddha.

[Lord Loser]

Buddha you big hate-monger... :P

[Darth Buddha]

I'm not a hater, I just want to PUKE.

Religion turned into a political force to cause people to go mess with other people (again) rather than just enrich the spiritual lives of those who want to believe....

Racial quotas dividing the races even more than they were already...

And on and on and on. Is anyone seeing just how perversely things that SHOULD be good and being twisted in the political arena?

I'm just heartsick at all of this.

[Lord Loser]

I'll get back with ya...

Oh, and you do know I was kidding...

[Darth Buddha]

Yeah, I knew...

Scary how well you can learn how to take somebody on this board. I've never been on a board this personable before.

[DRD2001]

OK Buddha, you have my vote.
Buddha for President! :bounce:

[Darth Buddha]

The Presidency... yeah, you'd have to be crazy to want that, wouldn't ya?

I'm not quite that crazy, thankfully!

[eta_carinae]

Originally posted by Frellster
Yeah, but the complaining students are from CU Boulder. Boulder is a liberal town, so students are going to hear predominantly liberal biases. If they went to school in Texas, they would hear predominantly conservative views. As long as their voice can be heard as well, and their not graded down for their views, I hardly see the problem.

I just graduated from CU Boulder in May. You would be suprised to see just how many conservative people actually live in Boulder. Of course, most of the faculty I've encountered at CU is very liberal, and I did find that in some classes, students couldn't get their views heard if they were conservative. I took a sociology class a couple of years ago (actually, the last time we had a pres election) and there was a girl with somewhat conservative views in my class. We had our recitation together, and I found that whenever she would start talking about something, our TA would dismiss her arguments. I was actually interested in some of the things she said, and we even agreed on a few points. But the TA wouldn't take the time to discuss them, she only wanted us to agree with her.

We had political discussions in alot of my classes, and most (if not all) of my proffessors were liberal. But most of them didn't punish conservative students, in my opinion. One of my roomates was a conservative republican, and I never heard her complain. Of course, I can't say with any certainty how they were treated in the end, as I am fairly liberal myself.

[SaraD]

I had some wonderful students, people I admired and am happy to have had the opportunity to teach. I learned from them, too. Not all of them were A students. Not all of them shared my political views. Then there were students (thankfully, not many) who spent a great deal of time and energy rationalizing bad grades. It was my fault, it was the text's fault, it was the TA's fault, it was the weather; they were misunderstood, they were at an disadvantage because of their politics, their astrological sign, or their bus schedule.

Over the years I had maybe a half dozen students who very earnestly explained to me how I had ruined their chances of getting into med school or law school because I gave them a B or a C instead of the grade they thought they deserved, (an A, of course). Notice the agency here: You gave me a low grade, instead of: I earned a lower grade than I wanted.

Again, I say clearly: most students I had were reasonable people, willing to take responsibility for their own actions and for their own educations. Some of them were exceptional people; a very few were self-indulgent and immature. A student who has the time to set up a website to complain about the politics of professors is somebody who (I'm guessing) could be spending more time studying and may well belong in that last small group.

[Judith]

Originally posted by SaraD
you have heard of free speech? it applies to faculty, too -- on campus or off.

I don't think indonctrination is a free speech issue. It is not right for a professor to use a public classroom to promote political views.

And I have been in a classroom, for example, where teachers have ranted for thirty minutes that anyone who doesn't believe in affirmative action is evil. An informed debate on affirmative action, as it applies to the class is acceptable.

In the same classroom, the professor spent a considerable amount of classroom time lecturing us about the evils of certain banned topics. I disagreed, and due to her vehemance and position of power, did not feel comfortable expressing my viewpoints. She made it very clear that opposing opinions were not welcome.

I got an A in the class. I don't know what I would have gotten had I publically disagreed with her. She was very biased against the students who didn't, and most of us learned very quickly to keep our mouths shut.

By the way, my boyfriend is a TA, and there are rules of conduct he has to follow. He signed a contract saying he would not indoctrinate students. So, I assume did this professor at the same university. Not a free speech issue.

[TheBladeRoden]

That's TWO strikes for Jaded! one more and I'll have no choice but to ask her for her number!

[SaraD]

JudithS: sorry, I have to respectfully disagree. The issue is free speech.

Of course there are bad professors, just as there are bad students. Of course there are lazy professors (and students). You had a bad experience. But if you try to legislate what you're calling 'indoctrination' imagine where that could go. Think of Galileo. Think of Darwin. Any unpopular statement the professor makes, any direction in her research that challenges the status quo, could be called indoctrination.

Do you know why tenure is such a big deal at universities? It has to do with job security -- but not for the reasons most people believe. Tenure has to do with protecting free speech and those faculty members who pursue subject matter which might be distasteful to the administration, the students, or anybody else. When I was untenured, I was strictly cautioned by my senior colleagues not to publish some of my work or to talk to my classes about it. It had nothing to do with politics, by the way, but it did challenge accepted wisdom, and there were regents who would have blocked my promotion. Once I had tenure I could publish and lecture on those topics. Did they like it? hell no. But they couldn't summarily dismiss me anymore.

If your boyfriend had to sign a document before he could teach (and people are made to sign all kinds of documents which turn out to be illegal and unenforceable) then maybe his rights were violated.

[AgentSun]

in·doc·tri·nate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-dktr-nt)
tr.v. in·doc·tri·nat·ed, in·doc·tri·nat·ing, in·doc·tri·nates
To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.
To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view: a generation of children who had been indoctrinated against the values of their parents.

notice it said to instruct, not to "blatanly shove down one's throat". that being said, i agree with Judith because the issue really isn't free speech. not all teachers are tenured. this is not just on a college level. it's happening in high school and (ugh) elementary school also.

where was that article that was published a while back right after the war began? it said that teachers at an elementary school were telling their students that war was wrong and a lot of parents happened to be in the armed forces. those kids were presented a very biased viewpoint on something that they don't necessarily understand to begin with.

what i believe here is that in the debate of what constitutes a "bad teacher" whether its high school, college, or preschool, a bad teacher to me is someone who is placed in that position of authority to help children grow and learn and expand their view points of different subjects in order to learn to think for themselves. any teacher now who exposes his or her students to blatant bias and nothing else is keeping the students from looking at other viewpoints.

Any unpopular statement the professor makes, any direction in her research that challenges the status quo, could be called indoctrination.

no, because the status quo is not what is being talked about here. there IS no status quo. we are talking about teachers who force their views on students and never present a disagreeing side to even it out. if a professor makes an unpopular statement than one must consider the word "unpopular"...who is it unpopular against? why is it unpopular? he isn't forcing anything to anyone, is he?

bottom line, professors make all the statements they want. until they begin to teach that that is the ONLY right view, without teaching about the other side, the pros and cons, THEN it becomes indocrination to the point where the students may have no other view if they are young or impressionable enough.

[Third EYe]

If a professor grades based on thier bias, then free speech goes out the window, and the prof needs to be put out on the curb. I've been to college, and I've seen biases on both sides, and in general, for learning purposes, it doesn't matter. If my prof told me "a" = "c" and that "b" was bunk, then I went to verify if I agreed, and if I had opportunity, I'd state such in discussion or in a paper, whether I agreed or not with whatever assertions were being made.

Being a psycology major I ran into more "social liberals"/"fiscal conservatives" which makes for an interesting dynamic.

I only had one real issue with a prof who's bias was being negative on grading. He was fired, for exactly that. My personal experience, which did not effect this man's job was a word I used in a "fable" (creative writing) that he claimed didn't exist. I can't remember the spelling, and would have to find the paper, cause without the correct spelling, it can't be found, I just looked. Anyway, because he couldn't find it in his pocket dictionary, it couldn't possibly exist. I called him on it, and made him change my grade when I was able to prove to him, the Dean, and the class that the word was in 10 other dictionaries.

Of course this wasn't a politically based bias, it was a gender one. I wasn't a cute female. (sounds a bit Ferengi)

Having biases isn't necessarily bad, using those biases to grade papers can be very very bad. I plan on going back to school this spring and finishing up a few degrees. If I encounter any biases in grading, I will confront them.

You can only be endoctrinated if you are willing to be endoctrinated.

[SaraD]

First, I don't trust anecdotal data about what's going on in grade schools. I could throw back a dozen stories about ultra conservative teachers damaging young minds, and to what end? Even if there were such a thing as solid data on this very subjective topic, I have the feeling it wouldn't impact your position -- you're as inflexible as the professors you're complaining about.

Second, my point was this: it's a mistake to make policy based on the exceptions.

[AgentSun]

it wasn't quite anecdotal, since it was published on CNN (a highly liberal news source btw) and it was even posted here for discussion.

and if i and the rest of us here are as inflexible as the professors we "complain" about, then what is the debate? what are you saying? simply enough, i don't enjoy professors who grade wrongly due to their political or moral bias, and i don't like professors who present one biased view in the classroom withouth presenting the other side, whether they agree with it or not. both sides are needed to form one point.

in all respect, it seems like you're taking the stance of "this is the status quo, lets keep it that way". is it okay for teachers to do this sort of thing to students? is it just an accepted way of teaching and its been going on for a while and its just the way it is? you mentioned tenure. so outside of college, where high school has no tenure, does this mean that its okay for all teachers to do this? they are not presenting a view that is in agreement with the rest of the school, they may be presenting a view that is in agreement with themselves, and as the ONLY right view.

and you say that its a mistake to make policy on exceptions. well, if you were at a highly conservative school and were blatanly shot down for your view, would you still shrug and say "this is the way it is"? and policy in general in application to this, does not work. you can't force a bully to not pick on a kid because sooner or later the authority is going to blink or turn around. how it should be stopped, i don't know, but its not really debatable whether its detrimental or not. the question is, how is this impacting education?

what solid data were you thinking of? solid data that bias is not prominent in schools? there are a lot of examples that it is. we know this, we don't need "official" numbers to know that in every college across the country, there are professors who are going to teach one view as right.

[Antrobus]

If one feels that they are at a school that's "too liberal" for them, then why are they there. There are many conservative schools to go to if that's one is looking for.

If you go to a restaurant and don't like its food, you usually go somwhere else the next time. All schools have some sort of reputation (that's usually well known) regarding their conservatism or liberalism. Pick the one that's right for you!

But, I can't take any pity on conservative students who go to a known liberal school and then complain about it. Sorry if that sounds blunt and insensitive, but the world is blunt and insensitive.

[grinner]

but it is alright for Liberal Students at Hillsdale to complain about that school? That happens every year. Hillsdale has the reputation as one of the MOST conservative Schools in the US... however every year there are some liberal students that attempt to cause trouble there.

[Nicola]

Originally posted by grinner
but it is alright for Liberal Students at Hillsdale to complain about that school? That happens every year. Hillsdale has the reputation as one of the MOST conservative Schools in the US... however every year there are some liberal students that attempt to cause trouble there.

I am rather intriqued by this discussion. Where is it written that one cannot critize one's Alma Mater? I do it all the time.

I like my university very much, but if TPTB think that I am not going to voice my opinion on things that I do not feel are 'up to snuff' then they are very much mistaken.

In fact, that is probably one of the most important things that I was taught at university.

I get to have an opinion.
I get to voice an opinion.
And as long as my opinion is backed up with decent research, I can say what I think.

And I did.
And I do.

And I am surprised that anyone who is going to university would think otherwise.

edited to add: The 'backed up with decent research' is a really important point here.... one that is missed or deliberately overlooked often.

[grinner]

there is criticism and then there is actively attempting to disrupt the classroom. I have a good friend that went to Hillsdale and there were some students at the school that didn't seem to mind the expense of the school, who's entire goal seemed to be to disrupt the classes. They typically were asked to not come back... but that is alot of money to spend to go to a college where your goal is to harass your fellow students.

[Darth Buddha]

True believers, of any stripes, consider it their duty to mess with those who don't agree with them.

That's why I clinch every time I hear a candidate appeal to patriotism (a.k.a. Nationalism, remember the Nazis?) or God in an argument to do something or not to do something.

If somebody is doing something because of God, you cannot have a rational discussion with them. Because, of course, God can't be wrong.

One must always sustain philosopher's doubts. Belief is the end of wisdom, the death of knowledge.

[Nicola]

I think the key point here is, 'backed up with decent research'. If these students were there just to disrupt the lectures, then I highly doubt that it would have mattered whether it was a 'conservative' or 'liberal' institution of higher learning.

If they couldn't back up their points, then they would either be humiliated in discussions (believe me social control can be a b*tch), or asked to leave.

If they could back up their points and were asked to leave anyway, then I would question the veracity of that university.

I found in all of my lectures that differing viewpoints were very stimulating to class discussion, and I really learnt a lot from lectures that encouraged this.

In fact, during the course work for my Masters degree, that is exactly where I learnt everything. Discussion, disagreement and different interpretations of the same data. Professors became facilitators of discussion rather than lecturers. Very stimulating. Very informative. And meat and drink to the university crowd that I socialised with.

[Nicola]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha
True believers, of any stripes, consider it their duty to mess with those who don't agree with them.

That's why I clinch every time I hear a candidate appeal to patriotism (a.k.a. Nationalism, remember the Nazis?) or God in an argument to do something or not to do something.

If somebody is doing something because of God, you cannot have a rational discussion with them. Because, of course, God can't be wrong.

One must always sustain philosopher's doubts. Belief is the end of wisdom, the death of knowledge.

What he said.

[Judith]

Originally posted by Nicola


I found in all of my lectures that differing viewpoints were very stimulating to class discussion, and I really learnt a lot from lectures that encouraged this.

In fact, during the course work for my Masters degree, that is exactly where I learnt everything. Discussion, disagreement and different interpretations of the same data. Professors became facilitators of discussion rather than lecturers. Very stimulating. Very informative. And meat and drink to the university crowd that I socialised with.

I love those dicussions. My problem is those where differing viewpoints are not allowed.

I used to work as a tutor at the Writing Center at my university. When I look back on the experience, the sessions that were the most fun for me were those where the student had written a position paper I STRONGLY disagreed with. Helping to strengthen an argument that is counter to what I believe was a great learning experience for me.

[Darth Buddha]

Discussion is fine. and should not be supressed by a professor biased in one direction or the other if HE/SHE is dabbling in the subject already.

However, if somebody pulls their beliefs into it SOLELY on the basis of God, there is no point discussing with them in class unless we are talking about a theology class, a history of religion, or a philosophy class. Say in an ethics class, this sort of thing is not only appropriate, but I would think (even as a non-theist) mandatory.

As an example of where religion or faith should be out, I give you debate from a creationist in a science class. This is clearly worthless. And I don't care to have to re-educate anyone on why creationism is not science.

HOWEVER, I do know those who have used God in their positions, and then back up with reason why something, say the Decalogue / Ten Commandments is a good idea... which is WAY COOL!

[AgentSun]

i agree with Buddha in that one needs strong points to back up an argument, whatever it may be. i agree that if you have a good reason for something then the argument would be better reinforced to make others understand.

[Nicola]

Originally posted by AgentSun
i agree that if you have a good reason for something then the argument would be better reinforced to make others understand.

I think, though, that people need to realise that no-one can 'make' anyone understand anything.

The best you can do is 'help' them understand.

And if they don't you need to respect that. If necessary, assess whether your argument was weak, if they are deliberately obtuse, or if you are wrong.

[Darth Buddha]

Best approach is the one adopted by many philosophers...

First, define the meaning of terms. Sometimes different contextual definitions make arguments impossible without this.

Second, define the things that everyone agrees on. Gives you a basis to start from.

Only then can you start to point out the relative strengths and weaknesses of the two arguments. Quite often (actuall, in all cases as far as I am concerned) things boil down to theories that are almost identical, except one had God and one does not.

Occam's Razor... the one without God is simpler and more elegant, so the argument with God usually loses outright.

Remember that a God who accepts everything acccepts nothing.