"I am not deficient. I am superior. Humans are superior."

[The Keeper]

ok so if we are that superior as John says we are...how come we arent already 'zipping around the galaxy like or Star Trek' or Farscape?

how long do u reckon itll b before we ACTUALLY get something solid down in space travel? i mean like PROPER space travel...knowing my luck it will prolly be long after im gone and im ONLY 16.

Crichton is a lucky bugger....even if he is 'fictional'

[BlackThorn]

Nah, we'll destroy ourselves first, says the pessimist in me.

Sometime before I'm dead, says the optimist in me.

Guess that means it'll be sometime after I'm dead and sometime before we destroy ourselves.

[zap]

Well, as things stand right now, chances are greater that the human race will destroy earth and all its inhabitants before we ever get much further than Mars (if we ever even get THERE) I think (now this is ONLY MY OPINION) the human race squandered something really important long ago, perhaps thousands of years ago we gave up our chance to go into space for greed, which has lead to terrible pollution, terrible war, all the terrible crap we have right now. I dont know what it is we may have given up, but I doubt we'll ever get it back, therefore i dont think we will ever make it into outerspace. Maybe part of our problem is that we do see ourselves as superior? Our hubris blinds us to the unique strengths inherant to all living things, our hubris causes us to buy into ideas of racial superiority, sexual/gender superiority, political superiority. Seems like all those things serve only to paint us into a box metaphorically, whereas a more open, accepting attitude, one that respects differences and appreciates the balance of power and strength might lead us as a species to such greater richness. In a small way, we can see this played out here on the FMD boards. A person named "Ancient" used to be here, swaggering around, arrogantly asserting obnoxious, disrespecful views, growing ever angrier and more hostile, until he finally got banned. In the time he was here, did he enlighten anyone? Did he change even one person's mind about anything positive? Did her furthur the cause of saving Farscape? I dont think so. Contrast Ancient with grinner, a man who holds beliefs vastly different from my own, yet I respect and admire grinner, because he has shown me respect. Grinner behaves in a cooperative manner, he listens, is respectful, and offers a balancing, opposing viewpoint on certain issues. I believe I've grown personally, intellectually by knowing grinner here on FMD. He and I will never agree on certain issues, but by his attitude and my attitude, he and I have found much common ground. Now take that microcosm, make it macro, see where we are right now in the world. Right now, it seems like the "Ancient"s are in control, shouting "this is the way", refusing to cooperate, refusing to let the natural balance occur. Will this ever get us into outer space?

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Well, I believe part of it is becase that we still have "intraspecies chaos."

Also, we hold so tightly to the scientific laws that we have in place. I'm not science person, but it made sense to me when John said that we needed to learn how to defy these laws in order to make space travel the way that all the other species do.

I don't think we're ready, it's not time yet. Not many people care about the space program, they think it's too dangerous and pointless. People, in general, in America don't see why thier tax dollars are going to Mars. No one explains the importance of space travel and research.

Plus, what if we did make first contact? What would they think of us? We have so much trouble accepting other humans let alone a species that may look and act nothing like us.

As much as I want to see a great space accomplishment in my lifetime, I just don't see it happening...

Two space tragedies in my life... nothing good. :(

[zap]

Originally posted by SweetpeaAeryn
....<SNIP>.... I'm not science person...<SNIP>.... :(

I recommend these two books by Carl Sagan :
Cosmos
Carl Sagan / Paperback / Published 1983

The Demon-Haunted World : Science As a Candle in the Dark
Carl Sagan / Paperback / Published 1997

[Darth Buddha]

There are big differences in degrees of "wipe out".

Wipe out EVERYONE? O.K., no space travel.

But what about wipe out, say, 99%? Which I find far more likely.

Say, Global Warming finally reaches a threshold and suddenly all the coastal cities are underwater, the food producing belts dry up, and famine & war take off. There could be survivors.

After a dark age, perhaps a more enlightened human would emerge. Then again, a bunch of anti-technology anti-knowledge fundamentalists could emerge too.

But I don't think wiping out the whole species is all that likely. That would be too easy... more like an agonizing death for most, and an agonizing marginal survival for a very few.

[grinner]

Originally posted by zapgun
In a small way, we can see this played out here on the FMD boards. A person named "Ancient" used to be here, swaggering around, arrogantly asserting obnoxious, disrespecful views, growing ever angrier and more hostile, until he finally got banned. In the time he was here, did he enlighten anyone? Did he change even one person's mind about anything positive? Did her furthur the cause of saving Farscape? I dont think so. Contrast Ancient with grinner, a man who holds beliefs vastly different from my own, yet I respect and admire grinner, because he has shown me respect. Grinner behaves in a cooperative manner, he listens, is respectful, and offers a balancing, opposing viewpoint on certain issues. I believe I've grown personally, intellectually by knowing grinner here on FMD. He and I will never agree on certain issues, but by his attitude and my attitude, he and I have found much common ground. Now take that microcosm, make it macro, see where we are right now in the world. Right now, it seems like the "Ancient"s are in control, shouting "this is the way", refusing to cooperate, refusing to let the natural balance occur. Will this ever get us into outer space? Thank you for that wonderful compliment. I try/attempt to see all sides of things before I make a decision in my life... and I know that my upbringing and beliefs affect certain decisions... but I do try to understand both sides of an issue.

[grinner]

I HOPE that we will be exploring space within this century... our technologies are growing at such a pace that this is an inevidability. However there is a bit to much dogmatic following of certain beliefs and religions and political Cult's of personanilities(N. Korea) where things can go disastrously wrong. I believe that some would rather blindly follow rather than to think for themselves. Now I am a religious person but I think that I am more than willing to let people do what they want. I regret what some do, and I hope and pray that they will change, but I understand that it isn't in our nature for everyone to do everything exactly like everyone else.

I do believe that we should be visiting other planets by the end of this century. And that by the 22 century we should be going to other parts of the galaxy. But that is just me hoping for the best.

[cullyn80]

After reading your posts, I would reccomend reading Nightfall by Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg. For a synopsis visit http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553290991/qid=1076166971//ref=pd_ka_1/104-5331744-3226309?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

My views on this subject are that we will make it to Mars in the next 100-150 yrs, but I don't see humans setting up a permanent base there. The best chance for humans to expand outward into space is for us to work together with other nations/cultures. It is possible for us to work along with most nations/cultures on Earth but there are enough scattered around that have a hatred for other cultures to prevent this.

I could continue on my rant but hydrology and steel structures homework beckon me.

[chri-baby]

I think that nothing is beyond the reach of humanity. However, I would that nothing significant can be achieved in the area of space until our work as a speceis has been been completed her on Terra Ferma . And by completed I mean either we have destroyed the earth to the point that speceis survival depends on moving on to the stars. Or that we have solved all Humanity's problems here on earth and have the leisure, the money and the time to dedicate to exploring our outer horizons.
I, for one, think the prior rather than the latter most likely. And I pray to god that I will not live to see it.

Gosh! this is turning into one depressing thread :(

[BlackThorn]

Originally posted by chri-baby
I think that nothing is beyond the reach of humanity.

The only thing that's stopping us is our own humanity.

[Darth Buddha]

Regarding Ancient...

The only problem with Ancient was that he got mad. I actually learned a lot from the dude so long as he was chilled out.

I actually miss THOSE posts by him. I can understand why he got angry, sometimes, but other times (I recall a thread about horror movies) I was left scratching my head in confusion.

[grinner]

ah... yes, the Ancient as Arbiter of Decent Horror Films... that was a very peculiar turn of events.

[BlackThorn]

That was one strange occurance. My brain hurts just remembering it.

[Nicola]

I think our species thrives on competition. It is a somewhat depressing fact that competition vs cooperation seems to propel many of humanities advances.

Having said that... China has sent a man into orbit and has expressed a determination to go to the moon. They have the resources and the determination to suceed.

Coincidentally (I think NOT) within a month of China's announcement the US government was making noises about a moonbase.

Japan (quite recently - last week I think) announced that they were also thinking of starting a space program.

It is about prestige. About being first, about being best.

Competition. Not cooperation.

Personally, I think we could get further faster if there was cooperation, but unfortunately I think competition is going to drive this advance.

At least something is.

(By the way, before you decide if humanity is going to the Moon or Mars, look beyond the borders of Western society. I think you will find your answer.... might even find your timeline.)

[chri-baby]

Originally posted by Nicola

(By the way, before you decide if humanity is going to the Moon or Mars, look beyond the borders of Western society. I think you will find your answer.... might even find your timeline.)

We have a saying " if it had lasted for others it would never have come to you"

But the hope is that we may learn from the mistakes of our predecessors and perhaps do a better job of it. A hope that is yet to come to fruition i'm afraid! :(

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Originally posted by zapgun
I recommend these two books by Carl Sagan :
Cosmos
Carl Sagan / Paperback / Published 1983

The Demon-Haunted World : Science As a Candle in the Dark
Carl Sagan / Paperback / Published 1997

Yay!!! Thanks for adding to my reading list!!!!

(There was another one from someone else... thanks for that one too! :joy: )

[The Keeper]

Originally posted by SweetpeaAeryn
Plus, what if we did make first contact? What would they think of us? We have so much trouble accepting other humans let alone a species that may look and act nothing like us.

Ok so if we did make first contact, or they made first contact with us, all i can see is that the scientists on earth and so on will not give a damn about who they are let alone what they are and the all we'll get is a real life enactment of 'A Human Reaction' we humans are sooo afraid of new things.

Also after readin all ur posts on this thread, ud think that we should be the ones in charge of space programs cause we want it and for good reason, i personally dont care about the stupid competetion i just want to someday know that there is in fact more out there then just us earthlings...:(

-TK

[RobinC]

Superior? Superior to whom? The word implies comparison, and we have nobody to compare ourselves to at this point. So how do we know whether we are behind (in the galactic sense of space travel) or very much ahead?

Robin

[The Keeper]

Originally posted by RobinC
Superior? Superior to whom? The word implies comparison, and we have nobody to compare ourselves to at this point. So how do we know whether we are behind (in the galactic sense of space travel) or very much ahead?

Robin

So true....

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Originally posted by The Keeper
Also after readin all ur posts on this thread, ud think that we should be the ones in charge of space programs cause we want it and for good reason, i personally dont care about the stupid competetion i just want to someday know that there is in fact more out there then just us earthlings...:(

-TK

I soooooooooo agree!!!!

[Ouroboros]

What's going to drive humanity to space enmasse is the same thing that's driven humanity enmasse to new places all throughout history. The prospect of material gain. Until we can find profit in space there's no reason for the people who have the money to make it happen to spend said money. There's already certain groups in the US who see NASA as wasteful and something that should be tanked in favor of some trivial increase to social programs.

The problem is though that in order to make space travel profitable it has to be easy and cheep and in order for it to become easy and cheep we have to do it a lot and refine our technologies for doing it. This is why institutions like NASA are so essential; they pave the road, so to speak, for the future. They learn how to get it done and done easier and faster. In the future if space travel technology continues to grow we could see companies venturing out to do things like mine the asteroid belt. The asteroid belts in our system are loaded with large amounts of material that would be of astronomical value back here on earth. Things like uranium, thus providing the profit incentive companies will need to get out there. Of course when they get out there and start competing with each other the technology, now funded by much more cash the NASA gets, improves at a faster rate. In the end humanity wins as these companies, in the name of one upping their competitors, will research and build the technologies needed to make space flight easier and easier. I wouldn’t dream of wishing humanity’s greed away. Greed’s one of the best inspirational forces for advancement and exploration that there is. Even this is very far away though, as we'll need much better engines to make the trip to the belt and back in a reasonable time.

The best near future thing the space program can do is get rid of that god damned space shuttle. The thing was a bad idea when it was designed and it's STILL a bad idea. It wastes so much precious payload weight just because somebody decided it had to land like a plane. An old splashdown style capsule is much more efficient and could even be built to be reusable. NASA's coming up on a chance soon to replace it's aging shuttle fleet with something more practical, lets hope they get it right this time.

As for the far future and things like faster than light travel right now it remains a pipe dream. According to the laws of physics FTL is not possible. As much as it saddens me to say I doubt we will see it even in our grandchildren's life times.

[Frellster]

We need to build an orbital space platform to take off from - this planet's a damn gravity well.

We can do it. Let's face it. Tribal hunter/gatherer societies work 3 hours a day. They can rely on eachother for support; they look after eachother's children, build eachother's huts etc... According to every psycological standard, they are much happier than agregarian societies, which in turn are much happier then industrial societies. So - if humans are happier living simply and in harmony with nature - Why then are we living stressful lives in the information age? The answer must be - TO GET TO SPACE. To see what we can create. To test to limits of the human imagination. Hell - if we ain't going to do that - then PLEASE can I live in a simple happy tribal group and stop frelling with the planet?

[Ouroboros]

We need to build an orbital space platform to take off from - this planet's a damn gravity well.

What we need is a space elevator. The idea is you take a really long really thick cable attach it to the Earth's surface at the equator, run it all the way out into orbit and allow the Earth's rotation to keep it aloft with centrifugal force. You can then attach cars to this cable and lift huge loads into space.

This is a real science concept. The only thing scietifically holding them back right now I think is making the cable strong enough. Certain materials and nanotubes under development however may have the tensile strength needed to make the elevator possible. If we can build an elevator we can transport enough material to begin construction of real starships up there. Big ones.

The elevator would be an epic project though. The greatest and most difficult thing ever constructed by mankind. The cost would be astronomical so getting any one nation to invest in something like this would be difficult.

[BaseLine]

The space elevator isn't science fiction anymore. According to this (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_elevator_030917.html) article, experts say it could be operational in 15 years. They most likely are going to use a ribbon of carbon nanotubes which will be 62,000 miles long and three feet wide.

[Darth Buddha]

Arthur C. Clarke wrote about the space elevator.... my read is, if he wrote it, we will do it.

The man is a savant.

[grinner]

Yes... Arthur C. Clarke, along with many other 'Science Fiction' writers like Heinlein and Asimov and others, were brilliant seers.

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Originally posted by grinner
Yes... Arthur C. Clarke, along with many other 'Science Fiction' writers like Heinlein and Asimov and others, were brilliant seers.

Wanna suggest some titles in particular?

[Darth Buddha]

For starters with Clarke, I'd recommend the classic 2001 A Space Odyssey and 2010 Odyssey II.

Actually better than the movies... but the movies are ALSO science fiction triumphs as far as I am concerned.

[brokendj23]

Now I am a religious person but I think that I am more than willing to let people do what they want. I regret what some do, and I hope and pray that they will change, but I understand that it isn't in our nature for everyone to do everything exactly like everyone else.

So you aren't one of those people who believes the end times are now? I have a good deal of knowledge into all that, and sometimes it seems likely, but I too want to believe and see the growth and potential of the human race.

[fiona-maria]

Space elevator is excellently cool, thanks for the 3d model, baseline.

We will get to the stars. We are too hungry to know, too hungry to find out, too hungry for our survival, not to.

And the technologies involved simply in getting the space shuttle aloft (which, I agree with Ouroboros, exciting as it is, was a BAD idea and not very logical) have already impacted our lives. I mean, look at Velcro. Seriously. Wonderful stuff, that.

$10 billion would pay for 10 trips to Mars. The first one we send up a bunch of supplies, a lander, instrumentation. The second one, we send people (what, people...it would be men, you know it. No women on that first "manned" Mars flight*sigh*). They start building a REAL base (no, no, NOT a Gammek base!*grin*). The third one we send more supplies, another lander. The fourth one, more people. The fifth, seventh and ninth, supplies and machinery. The sixth, eighth and tenth, people. $1 billion per flight. It would work.

We would have a Mars base. From there, it will be much easier getting to the rest of the solar system than it would be from Earth, the Moon, the Space Station (poor thing, limping along in orbit like it is...*sigh*), or even an orbital space platform.

But we will get there. It just depends on whether we are going to blow ourselves back to the Middle Ages in the next few years or not.

And, I cannot IMAGINE, that God, the Creator, The Allpowerful Being, whatever you want to call that higher consciousness, is so foolish as to create only one world where life is.

There is life out there. And I think they are waiting for us to grow up enough that they can come and say hallo.

Fiona

[scaper4eva]

i heard areally wierd thing (dunno if its true)..
... because space is infinite there should be another earth exactly the same with the same people out there some where in the infinty of space , weird huh..?

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Originally posted by fiona-maria

And, I cannot IMAGINE, that God, the Creator, The Allpowerful Being, whatever you want to call that higher consciousness, is so foolish as to create only one world where life is.

There is life out there. And I think they are waiting for us to grow up enough that they can come and say hallo.

Fiona

:clap:

[The Keeper]

Originally posted by scaper4eva
i heard areally wierd thing (dunno if its true)..
... because space is infinite there should be another earth exactly the same with the same people out there some where in the infinty of space , weird huh..?

i heard that somewhere too....it is kinda wierd tho ay?

[Ouroboros]

I just watched crackers today. I think the whole humans superior line was some sort of inside joke or homage to something evidently no one here caught on to myself included.

i heard areally wierd thing (dunno if its true)..
... because space is infinite there should be another earth exactly the same with the same people out there some where in the infinty of space , weird huh..?

Yeah it’s just raw probability. Given enough chances anything can happen even the exact same Earth. Of course the odds are so ridiculously small as to be ridiculous.

And, I cannot IMAGINE, that God, the Creator, The Allpowerful Being, whatever you want to call that higher consciousness, is so foolish as to create only one world where life is.

There is life out there. And I think they are waiting for us to grow up enough that they can come and say hallo.

This is that whole Drake equation thing. (http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html) I've read some pessimistic stuff from nay sayers but the odds look good for there being extra terrestrial life. I read a good article recently that pretty much explained how the evolution of intelligence was inevitable given enough evolutionary rolls of the dice so to speak.

Occasionally though I wonder what with SETI and with people in general makes them assume that contacting an alien race will automatically be a beneficial thing to have done. I hate to sound paranoid here but it's kind of weirdly naive I think that so many people seem to automatically assume we're going to dial up the Federation and not the Scarrans.

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Originally posted by Ouroboros
I hate to sound paranoid here but it's kind of weirdly naive I think that so many people seem to automatically assume we're going to dial up the Federation and not the Scarrans.

I don't think you sound paraniod or pessimistic at all. I believe it's highly probable! And that's why I think we're no where near ready to make first contact. We don't know what we're getting into and our first reaction to Scarrans or some like race? Atomic bomb...(*cough*Crichton*cough*) and we're seen how that works on Scarrens... they get pissed and wanna come kill us (makes sense.)

Or, I think another concern that would come up if we didn't automatically use the atomic bomb would be that we'd worry that the aliens would gang up with the terrorists and kill us all. Americans turned kinda paraniod about that kinda stuff after 9-11 (kinda like during the Cold War with Communists (I'm studying the Cold War right now))

Basically, if you don't wanna read that entire thing... the gist is... We're not ready.