3x15 and 3x17, icarus abides and the choice

[norweigan_scaper]

this is something I posted on the spacecast boards, but i'm posting it here hoping to get some more farscape fan input


just had to let my passion for the series overflow

two episodes ago we loose Talyn-John, and once again farscape gives us the unexpected twist, his death leaves no real incomplete treads. (albiet scorpius) He got rid of harvey, he was ready to go home and he had the love of his life. I thought that was so . . . diferent, why evict harvey if they were going to kill him? because it makes his death tragic, hell it's almost worthy of Aeschylus. But i digress, this tread was supposed to be about ep 17.

This is a sci-fi series, it's supposed to be about the unusual and fantastic, but there is nothing incomprehensible about loosing a love one, and loosing yourself in your pity. But again, this is why we all love Claudia Black, we felt her pain when john died, her bliss when they were together on talyn, and now her hopelessness, it's touching beyond words. Of course we all wish we could cloud those emotions, bury our feelings of loss, but Aeryn can do it, because she did it so well, especially after her experience in "the way we weren't" and the betrayl of her lover.

When aeryn is discovered by krais, she offers herself to him, "if i close my eyes hard enough i can pretend that you're him". Her motivations are no mystery but there is something, almost too real about this scene. It still sends shivers down my spine when i think of it.

Just when i think i can't have a higher opinion of Ms. Black, she turns it up another notch in "the choice".


Wondering if anyone had views on this episode, similar or otherwise

[Chi27]

Well, I've recently watched these episodes for the second time. The first time being when they aired here and I must say that my sentiments echo yours. Like you said TJohn had it all for a short period of time -- and so did Aeryn when you think about it. From the concluson of Green Eye Monster on, imo, and then just as fast he's now dead. You definitely feel her pain in that final scene of IP-2. It almost makes me want to cry just thinking about that scene. Especially when the camera pulls back for that long shot of her pulling the covers over both of them as she curled up beside him. :bawl:

Talk about despair in "The Choice"! She was below the level of depression, imo. First off, what a place to be a recluse. That hotel is certainly reminiscent of your earth equivalent of a flea bag, skid row hotel. :eek: Then how heartbreaking was it to see her conjuring up an imaginary conversation with TJohn and the imaginary kiss. Of course, she's pretty intoxicated when she's doing it. Then she snaps out of it and realizes that it wasn't real. :::sniff::: It also felt realistic that she would throw herself at Crais as irrational as it may seem to some. The emotional pain of losing TJohn in the way in which she did and after all they had been through to get together is obviously too much and she was trying to do anything make it go away at least for awhile.

Then the final blow is finding out that Mommy Dearest came to kill her. How tragic is that scene!

To bad the actors on Farscape have never been nominated for an Emmy because Claudia Black sure deserved one for that episode.

[norweigan_scaper]

absolutely, i think the scene with Krais really underlines her pain beautifully(if you can use that adjective to describe that scene), hell i just finished watching the season 3 finale and I'm pleased with Aeryn's continued avoiding of Moya-John, it would have been very easy to just put them back together after a few episodes of silence, but aeryn leaving john at the end, even after he bares his soul to her, whle being very sad, it also rings so true,
thank god the mini is in the works, i don't know if i could put myself through the rest of the series knowing i would leave it on a cliffhanger

[blueaeryn]

Yes, T-John did have it all. Like other have said, that is why it is so tragic, and sets up M-John's feelings of "missing the dance." Aeryn gave herself freely to the John on Talyn and in doing so, he harvested the love she had been holding close to the vest for John Crichton. That is why it is so tragic. They both had everything they wanted. And the cruel twist of fate, and the feelings of honor and duty tore that away from them.

What was left? Crichton was dead and Aeryn was a ghost of who she had become. She had taken the ultimate risk and was rewarded with her heart's desire being ripped from her.

In The Choice she tried to run from her feelings, tried to steel herself from the raw and emotional torment that was assaulting her. When she offered herself, half-heartedly at best, to Crais at that moment she just wanted to feel something. She was numb not only from her feelings but from the alcohol she had consumed.

It was the right thing to do to have Aeryn so cold and distant to M-John. To have her accept him immediatly would have cheapened what she had found with the John on Talyn. It also added that extra bit of angst that made DWTB the most gripping season finale I have ever seen.

Aeryn's leaving left a hole in not only John Crichton's heart but the heart of the fans. It set up a climatic, though too long awaited, return in season four. The only thing I think TPTB failed on is they relied too much on the mystery of Aeryn. It overshadowed the complete telling of the story as it seemed no one really cared about the filler episodes because they were too worried about where Aeryn was and when John was going to stop acting like a jerk.

BA

[JrMissToughChick]

but he did die happy

"they say that only a lucky or an unambishes man goes when he's ready... that said scorpius is dead and I'm with you..."

[Chi27]

Originally posted by blueaeryn
Yes, T-John did have it all. Like other have said, that is why it is so tragic, and sets up M-John's feelings of "missing the dance." Aeryn gave herself freely to the John on Talyn and in doing so, he harvested the love she had been holding close to the vest for John Crichton. That is why it is so tragic. They both had everything they wanted. And the cruel twist of fate, and the feelings of honor and duty tore that away from them.

<SNIP>

Aeryn's leaving left a hole in not only John Crichton's heart but the heart of the fans. It set up a climatic, though too long awaited, return in season four. The only thing I think TPTB failed on is they relied too much on the mystery of Aeryn. It overshadowed the complete telling of the story as it seemed no one really cared about the filler episodes because they were too worried about where Aeryn was and when John was going to stop acting like a jerk.

BA

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much is Moya John's pain at learning that Aeryn and TJohn had been lovers and now he's dead. He had missed out and yet his "twin" had it all. Anyone can say what they will that they were equal and original and all that BS, but the fact remained that there were two of them. MJohn called himself the original and so did TJohn, but they both have had different experiences during the separation.

I don't blame Aeryn at all for being cold to the Moya John, either. It must've been very painful coming back and seeing him knowing that he is an exact twin of the John that she experienced all those things with on Talyn. Yet, the man she's looking at that moment does not share the memories that were created while she was on Talyn. I don't know about anyone else, but I believe the baby was conceived with TJohn and not MJohn in AHR. It just seems right that she would conceive when they were the happiest they'd been in...???? Just my 2cents.

[JrMissToughChick]

I always thought it was conceved in Meltdown :rollin: that's just me

you are right they were different people

"we were so perfect and you, you're just like him. I mean you ARE him"
"No. I'm me I missed that dance."

[norweigan_scaper]

speaking from the persepective of someone who has only seen up to the cliffhanger of season 3, i almost feel like Aeryn shouldn't get together with John, if only because he, as many have already mentioned, is not Talyn-John, he isn't the one she shared those wonderful moments with aboard Talyn. In some strange way Moya John has become alien in a sense because while Aeryn was on Talyn he was off chasing wormholes, fighting with D'Argo and almost seemed to forget about the other him. Mind you this was probably him trying to keep buisy not to think about Aeryn, but on a subconscious level i think it stopped me from sympathising with him, as his relationship to Aeryn was always what drew me most to John Chriton, remove that element and he becomes a different person,
just a thought,

(i'm sure i'll come around to moya-john at some point LOL)

[JrMissToughChick]

I actuly always sympathised with Moya John more because he was the one left behind

[norweigan_scaper]

i can see that, but there's something so perfect about Aeryn's time aboard Talyn, and it seems so complete, she loved him and i'm sure she sees it as a betrayl of his love to fall into Moya-John's arms, after all they aren't the same person. Sure does make for some tear-jerking TV though, however it gets resolved

[Chi27]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick
I always thought it was conceved in Meltdown :rollin: that's just me

you are right they were different people

"we were so perfect and you, you're just like him. I mean you ARE him"
"No. I'm me I missed that dance."

ROTFLMAO :D Well, they definitely were ready to get down to business again at the end of the episode, as well as all the rockin' and rollin' they had already done the night before when Rygel complained about how they kept him up all night. :rollin:

[MrX]

I've always pulled for M-John, from the final moments of Thanks For Sharing until early Season 4. He had no Aeryn, no notes, no Winona and plenty of conflict with his best bud. He's gotta keep Harvey and figure wormholes out on his own. I don't know, maybe it was his experiences in "Revenging Angel" and knowing that Aeryn was his big reason to live. Maybe it was knowing that he was going to be second best for a while as soon as GEM happened. Despite Aeryn's pain probably being much greater than his, I felt for him the most.

But, anyway, enough of that. I agree that the performances in IP Part II and The Choice were exemplary, especially Claudia's. She made it seem so real. Although I really like both episodes, The Choice isn't in my top ten, probably because by then I was kind of sick of the split crews. I wanted 'em back together.

[JrMissToughChick]

I for the most part liked the on Moya story eps better than the on Talyn ones I don't know why though... I realy didn't care for relativity much except for the opening and closing scenes... and I didn't hate meltdown but it was one of my least favorite of season three... I loved losing time incubator, and SnS though... also IP1&2, the choice, and GEM were great eps... but to be fair there are part's of RA i didn't care for (just saying scence it was a moya ep)

[Elen]

Hehe, it's kinda funny that I always thought these eps as the most predictable episodes of Farscape. I mean, as soon as we had two Johns you knew that the other one would die and when T-John hooked up with Aeryn it was instantly clear which one would die.

[norweigan_scaper]

perhaps, but i found that farscape drags you into the story to such a degree that you're just enjoying the ride, not trying to predict the outcome, you want it to surprise you. I found that they suceeded, as well, in making the death of TJ not come off as sappy or hokey. In great part due to me being a shipper, these episodes are really poignant to me.
but they are not every scaper's cup of tea

NS

[JrMissToughChick]

Originally posted by Elen
Hehe, it's kinda funny that I always thought these eps as the most predictable episodes of Farscape. I mean, as soon as we had two Johns you knew that the other one would die and when T-John hooked up with Aeryn it was instantly clear which one would die. well obviosly I knew he was living on borrowed time when M-John saved his Life the first time in TFS... that thought was reinforced in GEM

[Chi27]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick
well obviosly I knew he was living on borrowed time when M-John saved his Life the first time in TFS... that thought was reinforced in GEM

I think it was pretty obvious that he was going to die since there was no way they were going to keep both of them around. He was as good as dead when Aeryn without any hesitation in her voice whatsoever, said she wanted to go to Earth with him. But so what if it was predictable.

But I must say those were some of the most compelling episodes of the show starting with Green Eyed Monster, but by the end some of the most painful and gut wrenching episodes, as well. In fact, by the time you get to the end of IP part 2, at least for me, I was... well let's say sufficiently traumatized. LOL. So that when I watched "The Choice", I was feeling Aeryn's grief and despair as well. It takes great writing, as well as acting to make me feel that.

[norweigan_scaper]

Originally posted by Chi27

But I must say those were some of the most compelling episodes of the show starting with Green Eyed Monster, but by the end some of the most painful and gut wrenching episodes, as well. In fact, by the time you get to the end of IP part 2, at least for me, I was... well let's say sufficiently traumatized. LOL. So that when I watched "The Choice", I was feeling Aeryn's grief and despair as well. It takes great writing, as well as acting to make me feel that.

that was my original thought when i started this thread, just the raw power of those episodes, claudia and ben really found their way to our hearts. I have only seen the choice once, and it took so much out of me that i don't feel i have the strength to go back and watch it again. It's so sad, huge kudos to the writing, directing and of course the acting.

[Chi27]

Originally posted by norweigan_scaper
that was my original thought when i started this thread, just the raw power of those episodes, claudia and ben really found their way to our hearts. I have only seen the choice once, and it took so much out of me that i don't feel i have the strength to go back and watch it again. It's so sad, huge kudos to the writing, directing and of course the acting.

It's been about a month since I saw "The Choice" and I know I can't bring myself to watch it again because it's so painful. Claudia and Ben deserved Emmy's for their acting in those episodes.

[Clarsax]

I was pretty sure one of the two Johns would die, since it was doubtful they would keep them both around, and neither John was going to just go away as long as Aeryn was still there. Once Talyn John and Aeryn started talking about leaving for Earth together, I knew Talyn John would be the one to go if they were going to continue the show, but that was still a sad couple of episodes. I also felt kind of sorry for Moya John all through season three. Here he was alone, thinking of Aeryn all the time and talking about how she's his whole world now, and she's fallen in love with the other John instead and thinks of Moya John as just a copy.

[norweigan_scaper]

Originally posted by Clarsax
I was pretty sure one of the two Johns would die, since it was doubtful they would keep them both around, and neither John was going to just go away as long as Aeryn was still there. Once Talyn John and Aeryn started talking about leaving for Earth together, I knew Talyn John would be the one to go if they were going to continue the show, but that was still a sad couple of episodes. I also felt kind of sorry for Moya John all through season three. Here he was alone, thinking of Aeryn all the time and talking about how she's his whole world now, and she's fallen in love with the other John instead and thinks of Moya John as just a copy.

that, my friend, is what makes this show so frelling compelling

[chasa]

Well, I thought I needed the hug after seeing Icarus Abides tonight (see earlier post in that thread), but then I pushed on through until The Choice. Good thing that I *did* go ahead and have the beer. Crap.

Since I came to Farscape post-cancellation, I couldn't avoid being somewhat spoiled and knowing this was coming (downloading the 12,000 music videos also didn't help). But even so, the impact was still there, big time. This entire plotline has blown the top of my head right off. The notion of two separate but equal Johns, neither of which are evil or throwaways, is really heartbreaking, even before one of them dies. And I couldn't possibly choose which of them to love more. They're both him, and that's the heartbreak. One gets the girl (who finally opens up her heart) and then dies; the other pines and lives. Sheesh, talk about your proverbial rock and hard place! And I'm sure there's more of the emotional ride to come.

Claudia should be very, very proud of her work in The Choice, as should everyone who contributed to the ep. It's incredible stuff. It's the reason I'm watching DVDs instead of the dren that's currently on TV, so kudos to them.

[Chi27]

Well, I thought I needed the hug after seeing Icarus Abides tonight (see earlier post in that thread), but then I pushed on through until The Choice. Good thing that I *did* go ahead and have the beer. Crap.

Since I came to Farscape post-cancellation, I couldn't avoid being somewhat spoiled and knowing this was coming (downloading the 12,000 music videos also didn't help). But even so, the impact was still there, big time. This entire plotline has blown the top of my head right off. The notion of two separate but equal Johns, neither of which are evil or throwaways, is really heartbreaking, even before one of them dies. And I couldn't possibly choose which of them to love more. They're both him, and that's the heartbreak. One gets the girl (who finally opens up her heart) and then dies; the other pines and lives. Sheesh, talk about your proverbial rock and hard place! And I'm sure there's more of the emotional ride to come.

Claudia should be very, very proud of her work in The Choice, as should everyone who contributed to the ep. It's incredible stuff. It's the reason I'm watching DVDs instead of the dren that's currently on TV, so kudos to them.

The only way to watch IP Icarus Abides is to follow it up by watching The Choice. I did end up watching that arc again last week and it's truly heartbreaking. That's what DK was going for at the time -- to make us love T-John and to fall in love with that romance between him and Aeryn. At that point when he knew he had us that's what sealed T-John's death. He as much as said so in the S3 episode guide.

As for that dren on TV which equates to Reality shows, I'll always continue to watch my Farscape DVDs. It's the only thing of any quality and creativity these days. Watching the DVDs and writing fan fic is the way to go.

[chasa]

I'm a vidder, so that's my fanfic equivalent. Since I started watching Farscape, I have had nothing but FS vids going through my head, pre-empting all other ideas on the drawing board...I have vid ideas for plotlines that I haven't even seen played out yet. That's how much it touches and inspires me creatively. Now I just have to wait for all of the S4 sets to be released (or I can buy R2...but no, must wait for NTSC footage...maybe).

OK, might have to go and watch The Choice again before kicking out for the night. I am nothing if not a glutton for punishment.

[MrX]

The only way to watch IP Icarus Abides is to follow it up by watching The Choice.

See, IMO, the only way to watch IP: IA is to immediately watch Revenging Angel. For some reason I've always liked the whole concept of seeing Crichton die one week then there he is, walking around, oblivious to the troubles that the woman he loves and the man he knows more than anyone else have had. I just like thinking about that and seeing it for some reason and I don't know why.

[Jeff O'Connor]

Yeah, and since "Revenging Angel" is so inconsequential to most everything outside of personal relationships between the crew of Moya, it's the perfect episode full of absolute banter and nothingness. An excellent follow-up to that gut-wrenching "Icarus Abides", which was filled to the brim with such high drama and greatness. This in turns makes "The Choice" even more worthwhile to wait for, to me personally, because that happens to be my favorite episode.

[Lost Like Me]

...TJohn had it all for a short period of time -- and so did Aeryn when you think about it. From the concluson of Green Eye Monster on, imo, and then just as fast he's now dead. You definitely feel her pain in that final scene of IP-2. It almost makes me want to cry just thinking about that scene. Especially when the camera pulls back for that long shot of her pulling the covers over both of them as she curled up beside him. :bawl:

Talk about despair in "The Choice"! She was below the level of depression, imo... Then how heartbreaking was it to see her conjuring up an imaginary conversation with TJohn and the imaginary kiss. Of course, she's pretty intoxicated when she's doing it. Then she snaps out of it and realizes that it wasn't real. :::sniff::: It also felt realistic that she would throw herself at Crais as irrational as it may seem to some. The emotional pain of losing TJohn in the way in which she did and after all they had been through to get together is obviously too much and she was trying to do anything make it go away at least for awhile.

Then the final blow is finding out that Mommy Dearest came to kill her. How tragic is that scene!


Ditto. I was really distraught last night after watching IP and The Choice. I felt Aeryn's pain straight thru to my soul. It took her so long to finally let go of her emotions and allow herself to fall in love, then to have it shattered. They did have it all, at least for a short while.

The scene that really got me, besides the Crais one, was when she asked T'John if it was easy being the hero and leaving her. They playfully joked around, as they do so well, and then he was gone and she was alone in bed.
The Crais scene, as mentioned earlier, was very real and hard to watch. I loved Claudia's work prior to this ep, but she went way off the chart with this performance.

To put icing on my already fragile psyche, I watched the commentary right after the ep. Listening to Claudia talk about Aeryn's journey was nearly as sad as watching it. Then she had to bring on more tears talking about the end of the series. I was sooo depressed when I went to bed, just thinking about Aeryn, T'John, and how she's gonna react to M'John. And poor M'John. I know it's gonna be painful for him too.

Where's that Tequila...