Icarus Abides

[nemanjic]

I was amased (in positive) by simpleness of Crichton"s death sceene. There was no pathetic bullsheet just man that lose his struggle, just man that dieing peacefully in arms of woman that love. Amasing! How simply but how deep emotional. I have never seen something like that.

[Clarsax]

It was a good scene, but sad. I don't think it was a peaceful death though, because both Aeryn and John were close to miserable about what they had together that was about to be lost. I think John managed to accept his own death, but he was the only one who did. It is good to see that the scene wasn't overacted as is usually the case with actors in these kinds of senarios. Instead the simpleness created a stronger reality and really made you feel the characters' grief.

[nemanjic]

I am sorry couse I can"t describe my feelings (I am not very good at English) but there is something in Crichton words "I feel good, I have not felt better" just before his death, dieing in arms of woman of his life that he found somewhere in deep space - the lost is very big but every second of happyness that he felt are worth dieing.

[The Keeper]

This is kinda goin off topic...but im the queen of random-ness when it comes to it so ill continue:

The title of this eppy: "Icarus Abides" got me thinking the other day in English. We were studying one of W H Audens poems that was about a painting about the Fall of Icarus (Greek? mythology i think) and i just started wondering why this eppy was named "Icarus Abides" is that connected with the myth and if so how does that tie in with this particualar farscape eppy?

-TK

ps and yes i agree that ep was very sad...i cried...lol

[BaseLine]

Originally posted by The Keeper
This is kinda goin off topic...but im the queen of random-ness when it comes to it so ill continue:

The title of this eppy: "Icarus Abides" got me thinking the other day in English. We were studying one of W H Audens poems that was about a painting about the Fall of Icarus (Greek? mythology i think) and i just started wondering why this eppy was named "Icarus Abides" is that connected with the myth and if so how does that tie in with this particualar farscape eppy?

-TK

ps and yes i agree that ep was very sad...i cried...lol

The titles of both episodes are based on greek mythology. Daedalus and Icarus were an Athenian craftsman and his son. They were exiled in Crete after Daedalus murdered his apprentice whose skill was greater than his master's. When the father and son were imprisoned by the king of Crete, the inventor made wings from feathers and wax so that he and his son could escape by flying away. Despite his father's warnings, Icarus flew too close the sun. The wax in his wings melted and he perished while his father flew to safety.

I think this mythology ties into Farscape in the following way:
The ancient is Daedalus, and Talyn-Crichton is Icarus. Crichton got careless (gave wormhole research to Furlow) and this led to his death.

[The Keeper]

Originally posted by BaseLine

I think this mythology ties into Farscape in the following way:
The ancient is Daedalus, and Talyn-Crichton is Icarus. Crichton got careless (gave wormhole research to Furlow) and this led to his death.

ohhhh ok i get it now. i mean i already knew wat the myth was about i just didnt get how crichton was connected.

thanks for clearing that up for me :D

[nemanjic]

Icarus is alsoa symbol of freedom and mens wishes to explore and conection with John is that Icarus was hero but with tragical end. It is a beautifull (like all others) greek ep.

[Scaper_S]

I find this episode the most difficult to watch because it is performed so well. I feel every moment of Aeryn's pain. I cannot think of any other death scene in film or tv that is anywhere near as painful to watch. John's last words "don't worry about me, I've never felt better" - I can't think of a good enough sentence to describe them. The whole scene is as powerful & emotional as the first time I saw it, every time I've watched it since. It is absolutely brilliant.

[nemanjic]

I feel the same like Scaper_S - my feelings are same in every little thing like Scaper_S. Really brilliant in every way - expecialy emotional - I was (and still am) crushed every since that scene.

[Chi27]

Originally posted by Scaper_S
I find this episode the most difficult to watch because it is performed so well. I feel every moment of Aeryn's pain. I cannot think of any other death scene in film or tv that is anywhere near as painful to watch. John's last words "don't worry about me, I've never felt better" - I can't think of a good enough sentence to describe them. The whole scene is as powerful & emotional as the first time I saw it, every time I've watched it since. It is absolutely brilliant.

I don't think I've come across a scene as powerful as that one in all my years of TV and movie viewing. That scene ripped my heart out. I felt Aeryn's pain. That scene is even more profound when you've watched those episodes that came before and witnessed how much they love each other and just when everything is coming together for them -- WHAM! Death tears them apart. If I'm not mistaken Aeryn says "I've never felt better" to Moya John after he saves her from the Scarrans. Those words had a profound impact on her (like us) when T-John said them and now she was repeating them. Thing is, M-John had no way of knowing that his "twin" said that on his death bed which is for the best, imo.

[MrX]

I always liked the fact that T-John's dying words were the same words M-John imagined Aeryn saying when she died in his arms in "Dog With Two Bones". I always liked that the creators did that, kind of showed that they truly were both John Crichton.

[blueaeryn]

Actually the line "I never felt better" in DWTB with Claudia's idea.

[Darth Buddha]

Originally posted by BaseLine
I think this mythology ties into Farscape in the following way:
The ancient is Daedalus, and Talyn-Crichton is Icarus. Crichton got careless (gave wormhole research to Furlow) and this led to his death. As somebody who loves mythology so much I've gotten printed, I have to say that is the best single line description of the metaphor.

Kudos!

[so-much-4-sanity]

OK - off topic and perhaps more of a Season 1 issue - but I've always wondered if Aeryn didn't setup John giving Furlow the wormhole data. Aeryn had to know what John would offer up? That makes the connection of fate so much stronger for me because they both gambled and lost.

[Clarsax]

I don't think she would have. At that point, Aeryn didn't really like John and couldn't care less about wormholes. It seemed to me that she was impatient to leave, and both she and John forgot about the problem of payment what with all the rest that was going on. I think it was more of a spur of the moment act of desperation for John because he couldn't think of anything else Furlow might accept.

[Chi27]

Originally posted by blueaeryn
Actually the line "I never felt better" in DWTB with Claudia's idea.

What a great idea she had and it definitely worked. :)

[mjwillia]

Spoilers.... For folks who haven't seen "Bad Timing" yet!













As a series Farscape has had some of the most "Powerful" scenes on TV. My two personal favorites:

1. T-John's dying words: "I never felt better."

2. Dargo's "agonizing scream" at the end of Bad Timing.

[Gelfling]

Wow. I just watched this episode for the first time last night and it was amazing. I just cried and cried. They did a wonderful job, it was very real and moving. I think I will have trouble watching it again, (not that that will stop me. :D )
By the way mjwillia I agree with you on Dargo's scream.

[rinnicbob]

Couldn't agree more with all the sentiments expressed here. Beautifully simple, in capturing the meaning of the ep' title, BaseLine.

My favorite remembrance of this ep' is Ben Browder's comments as part of the "favorite moments" in Farscape by the cast & creative team, after the series had been cancelled. The scenes for each ep' weren't filmed in sequence, and they'd spent most of the morning with Claudia blubbering all over him after filming John's death scene. Then, there they were, filming the action scenes in the sand with the dunebuggies, tooling around on a beautiful, clear Aussie day.

Ben's quote went something like, "fast cars, beautiful women, a perfect day, and they pay me for this?"

Amen.

[Chi27]

It was a good scene, but sad. I don't think it was a peaceful death though, because both Aeryn and John were close to miserable about what they had together that was about to be lost. I think John managed to accept his own death, but he was the only one who did. It is good to see that the scene wasn't overacted as is usually the case with actors in these kinds of senarios. Instead the simpleness created a stronger reality and really made you feel the characters' grief.

That scene was so perfectly acted. I just recently watched it again and I can't say how much it works for me. It's simple and not overly acted by either Ben or Claudia.

No, it was not a peaceful death, imo. Just arns before they were making plans for the future and now he was dying. That scene was more about accepting that he was dying. I think you knew he accepted his fate when he declined the radiation treatments that Crais offered. He knew that it would only prolong his life just a little bit longer, but wasn't going to cure him.

Somebody in the chat last night mentioned this scene and Claudia said something about that being her version of grief. Well, I for one know that it sure resonated for me as I could sure feel Aeryn's pain in knowing that those were going to be the last moments she'd ever have with John. Their final kiss before he died was so heartbreaking.

[chasa]

Damn, just saw this ep for the first time :bawl: I need a hug and possibly also beer.

[Martincore]

I just saw this ep for the second time... man that still hurts! Even though this time I knew that the story goes on for another season, and I know what happens afterwards, but it is (as far as I remember) the only scene in a TV-show that has actually made me cry... even the second time around! Amazing!

[StarsGoBlue]

Damn, just saw this ep for the first time :bawl: I need a hug and possibly also beer.

:hug:

:beer: :beergood:

[chasa]

:hug:

:beer: :beergood:

Thankee, Stars :D Now I'm winding up my second watch of the entire show (midway through S4) and I have to say that Icarus Abides was just as painful and moving the second time through. In fact, I think because I was less impatient to keep pushing forward to see what happens next, I've appreciated every episode all the more. S3 is just freakin' brilliant.

[Namrat]

I agree . . . that scene was done very well . . . as others have said, it was done with great emotion but without any overacting or cheesiness . . . powerful yet simple . . .

I also thought that, while it might not have been a "peaceful" death, T-JC was at peace with the decision that he had made . . . he knew the risk when he closed the radiation case . . . at the time, he willingly risk death (which turned out to be his death) to save the others . . . he may not have liked the outcome, but (IMO) he was at peace with the choice he made . . . and would do it again (IMO) given the same choice



Ben's quote went something like, "fast cars, beautiful women, a perfect day, and they pay me for this?"

I didn't know Ben found Furlow attractive . . . :eek:

[Hope]

Spoilers.... For folks who haven't seen "Bad Timing" yet!













As a series Farscape has had some of the most "Powerful" scenes on TV. My two personal favorites:

1. T-John's dying words: "I never felt better."

2. Dargo's "agonizing scream" at the end of Bad Timing.








I agree with these two scenes. I cried so hard during the death scene that I couldn't breathe. I missed so much of the dialogue that I had to watch it AGAIN to hear what I missed. Even after many viewing, I still cry like a baby. I particularly like the way John doesn't look at Aeryn while he is saying his last words. Many people have wondered if John was blind toward the end and that was the reason he didn't look at her. Whatever Ben's reasoning, I think it made it all the more sad. :bawl:

I won't even go into D'Argo's scream at the end of BT. That really tore me up. :bawl: :bawl:

Trivia note: I read or heard somewhere that John's line "Don't worry about me. I never felt better," was taken from a famous actor's actual last words before dying. I think it was Douglas Fairbanks. Of course, I could have dreamed it all up. :dunno:

[somniac]

Another thing about the Icarus story: I always thought it was agreat choice of title because T John flies so close to the star as well and he is killed by the power of stars. (the radiation)
I have often wondered about the "abides" bit though. T.John does not abide. He dies. Is this a reference to M John? John surviving in his twin.
Especially since....
SPOILERS FOR S4....................
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M John aquires T John's memories later on.
Oh-oh. Here I go...

[GcleffGinger]

:eek:

Spoiler for season four......
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How does M-John get T-John's memories?

[Xevallah]

It was a powerful scene but something that always bothered me was the fact she simply dismisses M-JC when aside from a few weeks of memorys, are the same person. Hmm I dont know, I guess now that I think about it more, her actions seem plausible...

*ponders*

[Leviathan]

:eek:

Spoiler for season four......
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How does M-John get T-John's memories?

We don't actually know that he does get T-John's memories. There are a couple of things that he says in S4 that make us suspect it, though. I really hope that this is resolved in the mini. It's driving me crazy!

[buckwheat the 16th]

the only way I can describe the final sceen is bone chilling. It was just so true to everything that you just can't help but be affected by it. I've probably watched it a handfull of times and it gets me every time.

As for the T-John memories, maybe it had something to do with stark's mask?

[Jeff O'Connor]

That's my biggest guess... but... they should've mentioned it somewhere. I just really hope the whole issue is resolved and explained in the miniseries. If not, that's okay... but it's one thing that nags me to no end.

[UnixWarrior]

This is kinda goin off topic...but im the queen of random-ness when it comes to it so ill continue:

The title of this eppy: "Icarus Abides" got me thinking the other day in English. We were studying one of W H Audens poems that was about a painting about the Fall of Icarus (Greek? mythology i think) and i just started wondering why this eppy was named "Icarus Abides" is that connected with the myth and if so how does that tie in with this particualar farscape eppy?

-TK

ps and yes i agree that ep was very sad...i cried...lol

Ah, the benefits of a classical education ...

In Greek mythology, Icarus built wings of wax and feathers to escape from his island prision. When he flew too close to the Sun, the wax melted, his wings came apart, and he fell to the Earth to his death.

Now, I ask you, what Sun did TalynJohn fly too close to?

The answer, of course is Aeryn Sun.

When I saw the title to this episode I knew TalynJohn was toast. The title Icarus Abides is total Farscape symmetry.

[RobynBender]

A fic you might like, since that scene sticks with you --
http://forums.scaperoute.com/kansas/index.php/topic,13250

Several other epilogue fics for Icarus Abides are indexed at:
http://forums.scaperoute.com/kansas/index.php?topic=13634.0

[somniac]

Thank you Robyn. I'm off to peruse!

[Nicola]

Ah, the benefits of a classical education ...

In Greek mythology, Icarus built wings of wax and feathers to escape from his island prision. When he flew too close to the Sun, the wax melted, his wings came apart, and he fell to the Earth to his death.

Now, I ask you, what Sun did TalynJohn fly too close to?

The answer, of course is Aeryn Sun.

When I saw the title to this episode I knew TalynJohn was toast. The title Icarus Abides is total Farscape symmetry.

While I actually agree with you that is the most likely explanation for the title (although the star that the wormhole connected with to destroy the Scarren Dreadnaught could also have been the sun TJohn got to close too or any number of other interpretations...), the title of the episode is not Icarus Dies or Icarus is toast.

It is Icarus Abides.

It is the "Abides" that intriques me.

[canadadoc]

While I actually agree with you that is the most likely explanation for the title (although the star that the wormhole connected with to destroy the Scarren Dreadnaught could also have been the sun TJohn got to close too or any number of other interpretations...), the title of the episode is not Icarus Dies or Icarus is toast.

It is Icarus Abides.

It is the "Abides" that intriques me.

Hi Nicola !

It could mean that Icarus (TJohn) "remains faithful to a promise" - which is one definition of the word. He did bravely complete his task to destroy the Scarren vessel and he died doing so. This could apply to the other meanings of the word - "act in accordance with rules"or tolerate or endure (death,pain).

Spoilers for end of Season 3
















I wonder about another meaning of the word - remain,continue, dwell. I have often thought this title a hint for all of us that TJohn will continue in Aeryn as the father of her child. (I now collapse in the blubbering tears that happen even thinking about this ep :( )

[Nicola]

Hi Nicola !

It could mean that Icarus (TJohn) "remains faithful to a promise" - which is one definition of the word. He did bravely complete his task to destroy the Scarren vessel and he died doing so. This could apply to the other meanings of the word - "act in accordance with rules"or tolerate or endure (death,pain).

Spoilers for end of Season 3
















I wonder about another meaning of the word - remain,continue, dwell. I have often thought this title a hint for all of us that TJohn will continue in Aeryn as the father of her child. (I now collapse in the blubbering tears that happen even thinking about this ep :( )











That is exactly the meaning of the word that intriques me. Although I wasn't thinking your interpretation so much as - you know - MoyaJohn.

Evil I tell ya. To chose a word that has a meaning that is so open to interpretation (and reinterpretation) in the title of this episode of all episodes?

Just evil.

Oh ... and I join you in your blubbering heap of tears.... :bawl:

[UnixWarrior]

While I actually agree with you that is the most likely explanation for the title (although the star that the wormhole connected with to destroy the Scarren Dreadnaught could also have been the sun TJohn got to close too or any number of other interpretations...), the title of the episode is not Icarus Dies or Icarus is toast.

It is Icarus Abides.

It is the "Abides" that intriques me.

Yes, I agree that the title is not "crytsal clear", and that abides has multiple meanings.

If you look up abides: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/abide, almost all the definitions can in some way be applied to Crichton's mission top stop Scorpious (or anyone else) from getting wormhole knowledge.

The paradox is that even though Crichton (TJohn) dies in his mission, Crichton (MJohn) still lives to carry on. "Crichton is dead, long live Crichton"

On a side note, the writers have taken great pains, and continue to do so, not to reveal when Aeryn became pregnant. The 'when" means we don't know whether it was the "One Crichton", in A Human Reaction, or TJohn.

This is the only television program that I actually have to think about.

[Vinona]

Yea.... know exacly what you mean....
Thou what i think was the worst part is that when Aeryn hold John right before he died she thought that HE was John, i think that in that moment she had totally forgotten about the other John aboard Moya....
and when she comes back he dosn't know anything.... and the things Aeryn and John(aboard Talyn) went trough was beyond what John(moya) could even imagine... so when he sees Aeryn he's like happy while Crais, Rygel are kind of sad.. you all know what im talking about..

anyway: in my oppinion when John died on Talyn, for my part he died aswell... at least a BIG part of him....SOB!






It was a good scene, but sad. I don't think it was a peaceful death though, because both Aeryn and John were close to miserable about what they had together that was about to be lost. I think John managed to accept his own death, but he was the only one who did. It is good to see that the scene wasn't overacted as is usually the case with actors in these kinds of senarios. Instead the simpleness created a stronger reality and really made you feel the characters' grief.

[Owlman]

I remember reading somewhere that IA was the original storyline for the "Emergency Ending", in case the show was cancled. When it looked like the show was going to continue, they decided to write a story based on the emergency ending for John Black. Is this true?

[GcleffGinger]

Well, I thought IA was the tear jerker, but somehow I'd missed the episode, "The Choice, now that was sad. When I finally saw that eppy I really teared up. She was going through loss after loss, with a little hope then that hope is dashed, and in the end of TC you see the season one Aeryn, all bottled up.

So what is your opinion. After these deep losses has she regressed? Anyone else find TC sadder than IA?

[UnixWarrior]

Well, I thought IA was the tear jerker, but somehow I'd missed the episode, "The Choice, now that was sad. When I finally saw that eppy I really teared up. She was going through loss after loss, with a little hope then that hope is dashed, and in the end of TC you see the season one Aeryn, all bottled up.

So what is your opinion. After these deep losses has she regressed? Anyone else find TC sadder than IA?

I think the writers wanted Aeryn to "regress". They give us shippers what we wanted with Aeryn and TJohn, from a romance perspective, so that gave them license to reset the romance angle back to zero by bumping off TJohn.

The "twinning" of JC was a brilliant idea. Two Crichtons, separate but equal. The story could go in any direction, and still be reset to square zero.

TC was probably sadder than IA, since Aeryn found her mother again, (or her mother found her), and then she lost her too.

That's why Aeryn appears as the "buttoned up" Peacekeeper at the end of TC.

Still, I think Fractures may be sadder still. When Aeryn walks by MJohn without a word, man that's sad.

[spocks2]

This episode devastated me, even though I knew it was coming (from spoilers, my own fault). Being new to the show I had zipped through all the eps prior to it in about a month, but I put IA off for weeks and I had to stop Farscape cold turkey for another week afterward.

The title is indeed exquisite. I interpret the Icarus tie-in to the fact that TJohn suddenly found himself with everything (Aeryn, Harvey gone, wormholes, a way home). Everything. A bright shiny everything. And we know that just won't do on Farscape. Not without dire consequences.

"Abides" I think of as "obeys". John was obeying his nature. To be a hero.


The Greek tragedians were the David Kempers of their day.

[FenjaH]

Daedalus was Icarus' father (if I am redundant I apologize) in the mythology he asked that his son not fly too close, and he did not abide.
In the Farscape version Jack's request was that the wormhole tech be kept from the Scarran. Little John did abide his father's look alike's demands. I believe the "sun" to be power in this symmetry. Alas, though Icarus does abide, and completes the demand, his life, as in the fable, is forfeit.

If, in fact, M John has T Johns memories, I see three possible answers. 1. Harvey? or 2. Stark's mask. or 3. whatever far-fetched fantasy they choose to write, I will eagerly suspend my dis-belief. Maybe Zhaan mailed 'em back to him from wherever she is.
Along this line can anyone tell me where to find clues that could make us think MJ has TJ's memories? I'd like to go watch those scenes.

[UnixWarrior]

... snip ...
Along this line can anyone tell me where to find clues that could make us think MJ has TJ's memories? I'd like to go watch those scenes.

I think the episode which best (or most) alluded to MJohn getting some (or all) of TJohn's memories is A Prefect Murder.

Throughout this episode the surviving John Crichton gets what is best described as Flashbacks. Or Flashforwards, as the case maybe. These flashes go by very quickly on the screen, so you will need to slow down your DVD/VCR to actually see much.

Also, what sticks in most people's minds regarding TJohn's memories is that the surviving John talks about Aeryn's mother as if he actually met her, when it was TJohn who met her, not MJohn.

I think the memory thing was a plot device not fully explored in later episodes, as if the writers ran out of space. There's only so many plot points one can cram into 45 minutes of screen time per episode. Our beloved Farscape has a lot of stuff going on already!

Hope this helps ...

[Nicola]

Along this line can anyone tell me where to find clues that could make us think MJ has TJ's memories? I'd like to go watch those scenes.

Actually they start hinting at it in "Revenging Angel". TalynJohn dies at the end of "Icarus Abides". Next episode - "Revenging Angel" - MoyaJohn dies. (But he got better.) However he does flatline for a period of time.

MoyaJohn flatlines right after cartoonJohn flies Farscape One into the painted wormhole and crashes. He ends up back on Moya with a cut above his 'left' eye. The same cut that TalynJohn sported since "Thanks for Sharing".

Then Harvey (who is sharing John's mind) has his little chat in front of John's headstone about "You can no more ignore your biologic heritage... than change your grandparents birthplace."

Spoilers for Season 4
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Except that those of us who have seen Season 4 know that John so absolutely CAN change his grandparents birthplace. :eek: I thought that it was a very peculiar thing for Harvey to have said - at that moment - when TalynJohn had just died and MoyaJohn was 'mostly' dead....
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That was the first little hint I picked up on, and it was the first episode after "Icarus Abides".

Then "The Choice". Lots went on in that episode, but the part that is relevant to this discussion was what TalynJohn said to Aeryn in his persona of John from "The Locket".

JOHN: I remember it all now.
AERYN: What are you talking about?
JOHN: Touch me. Don't be afraid, girl. I- I ain't gonna bite. Touch me.
JOHN: I remember it all.

Supposedly, "The Locket" didn't happen - not to this John and Aeryn anyway. But TalynJohn remembers - when he shouldn't have.

Makes you think about unrealised realities and how they might factor into this.

[somniac]

Very interesting thoughts Nicola. Hadn't made those connections.
Something else struck me though.
In NE, Aeryn says to John, "There's no distinction in my mind anymore"
After that, he starts getting flashes of her life with TJ. I wonder if this is a dramatic queue for the two to start merging.

[Namrat]

Actually they start hinting at it in "Revenging Angel". TalynJohn dies at the end of "Icarus Abides". Next episode - "Revenging Angel" - MoyaJohn dies. (But he got better.) However he does flatline for a period of time.

MoyaJohn flatlines right after cartoonJohn flies Farscape One into the painted wormhole and crashes. He ends up back on Moya with a cut above his 'left' eye. The same cut that TalynJohn sported since "Thanks for Sharing".

interesting point Nicola


Then "The Choice". Lots went on in that episode, but the part that is relevant to this discussion was what TalynJohn said to Aeryn in his persona of John from "The Locket".

JOHN: I remember it all now.
AERYN: What are you talking about?
JOHN: Touch me. Don't be afraid, girl. I- I ain't gonna bite. Touch me.
JOHN: I remember it all.

Supposedly, "The Locket" didn't happen - not to this John and Aeryn anyway. But TalynJohn remembers - when he shouldn't have.

Makes you think about unrealised realities and how they might factor into this.

Very good point . . . this was the only time in "The Choice" that I began to believe that TJ was really appearing to Aeryn (at least during this point anyway) and it wasn't just her imagination and grief (perhaps the little alien seer was telling the truth at the end . . . this was not a hoax) . . . and don't forget, when Aeryn's memories did surface about "The Locket" she also began experiencing the "physical symptoms" from that "reality" such as her chest being in pain . . . very interesting that the intersecting of the memories of a "reality" that didn't happened was also accompained by "physical symptoms" that also supposedly didn't (and/or hasn't yet) happened . . . TJ seemed to be travelling all over the place (time, realities, and what nots) . . . and so it would not be inconceivable (based upon this scene) that he was able to "reunite" with MJ when MJ "flatlined" for a little while . . .

[Nicola]

Very interesting thoughts Nicola. Hadn't made those connections.
Something else struck me though.
In NE, Aeryn says to John, "There's no distinction in my mind anymore"
After that, he starts getting flashes of her life with TJ. I wonder if this is a dramatic queue for the two to start merging.

That comment took me completely by surprise. Aeryn loved TalynJohn. She also loves MoyaJohn. But she is fully aware that they were two individuals... or were they?

When Aeryn said that to John, I started wondering exactly what Aeryn had been up to during her summer vacation.

Especially considering the way Aeryn handled the whole explanation thing in "Promises". At one point she even tells Ullom that she wasn't paid to assassinate the Prime Hokothian. Which begs the question: Who was she paid to assasinate? And why?

These questions.... and more.... in the next thrilling installment of Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars! (I hope)

[Nicola]

interesting point Nicola




Very good point . . . this was the only time in "The Choice" that I began to believe that TJ was really appearing to Aeryn (at least during this point anyway) and it wasn't just her imagination and grief (perhaps the little alien seer was telling the truth at the end . . . this was not a hoax) . . . and don't forget, when Aeryn's memories did surface about "The Locket" she also began experiencing the "physical symptoms" from that "reality" such as her chest being in pain . . . very interesting that the intersecting of the memories of a "reality" that didn't happened was also accompained by "physical symptoms" that also supposedly didn't (and/or hasn't yet) happened . . . TJ seemed to be travelling all over the place (time, realities, and what nots) . . . and so it would not be inconceivable (based upon this scene) that he was able to "reunite" with MJ when MJ "flatlined" for a little while . . .

Yep. I rewatched the entire series on Space the Imagination Station the last few months (daily... in order) and the connections that I had overlooked the first time I saw the series, really jumped out at me. Especially in The Choice. And (oddly enough) A Prefect Murder.

APM is an episode I really have a hard time liking... but there was so much subtext going on with TJohn references and Chiana's rape and its connection with her visions that I find it utterly compelling. Don't like it.... but it is weirdly fascinating.

[Lee in Limbo]

Hmmn. Dead topic. But I was thinking: Isn't the symmetry between the two titles most likely whe reasoning behind the choice of the word 'Abide'?

Daedalus Demands... presumably the abandoned Ancients (servant/guardians to the race 'Einstein' came from), in the form of John's father, want John to help undo the damage of leaving Furlow with wormhole tech, which will be sold to the Scarrans. Sure, John hadn't shared any of the knowledge he'd been given from them with her (he hadn't met them yet), but still, they had more or less declared him responsible for her. That's the demand.

Icarus Abides... in this case TJ, the tragic hero who bravely does as he's told, wrecklessly finishes the job, even though it brings him too close to harms way. So it's not a direct take on the myth. The symmetry of the title still stands. John wasn't careful. He made heroic gestures throughout that episode in the interest of keeping the secret from the Scarrans. He may have had his hand forced at every turn, but he accepted the responsibility to the end. He abided by the Ancients' demand.

Personally, though, that episode always makes me furious with Furlow. In a very real sense, and more in line with the myth, it was her wrecklessness that should have been her undoing, not TJ's. It makes me have very nasty images of Furlow's head imploding violently.

Ah well... it all works out in the end.

[Nicola]

I think if they were only looking for symmetry it would have been "Icarus Complies" or something simliar.

"Abides" has layers of meaning - all of which add to the fascination of the title.

To put up with; tolerate.
To wait patiently for: “I will abide the coming of my lord” (Tennyson).
To withstand: a thermoplastic that will abide rough use and great heat.

v. intr.
To remain in a place.
To continue to be sure or firm; endure.
To dwell or sojourn.

I would say that the myth is fairly closely followed. Icarus flies too close to the sun. The sun melts the wax in his wings and he falls into the ocean and drowns.

John is raditated (sun), joins his wormhole to a sun to destroy the scarran dreadnaught, and we know this John was toast as soon as he and Aeryn (Sun) finally got it together.

[Lee in Limbo]

I'll buy most of that, but I'm not sure I can agree that they knew TalynJohn was a goner once he got together with Aeryn. As much as I love how well thought-through the series feels at times, I'm all too aware of how fluid the scripting process really was for the series.

So as far as amping up the tragedy, I'm sure it occurred to the writing team that one of them would eventually have to go, but I'm not entirely sure they knew until they were pretty much there. Wouldn't surprise me to learn that they were up in the air as to which story would kill which Crichton. Although I tend to think it worked out more satisfyingly this way. Odd, huh?

And as for definitions, yes, Abide is definitely a vague one, but I think there's enough of a sense of complying in the face of defeat inherent in the modern usage of the word. I have always had a sense of the shape and finer context of the word to be an acquiescence to authority or inescapable fact, and particularly an ironic one. [EDITTED TO ADD: Abide has always seemed to me to be more passive than the somewhat proactive Comply]

Aside from that, however, I think the exact wording of the definition as you've outlined suggests a certain amount of resilience, which definitely defines our tragic hero, who didn't merely plunge into the sea after a foolish flight of fancy as in the original tale. It is a fairly risky bit of pretension that the writers injected into those titles. But I stand by the implied symmetry. I can't do otherwise. The writer in me leaps at it.

And finally, I hope you'll forgive me this comment, but I've enjoyed your posts a great deal. Thank you for conversing with me.

[~1812~]

It's a metaphor. Greek Mythology is full of them! Icarus, we burn our wings flying to close to the sun. The sun isn't something that we're supposed to touch. Wormhole technology is something that no one is supposed to touch. He got burned by wormhole tech, just like the wings. His father told him to use the wormhole tech and he was burned for it.

Aeryn Sun could be perceived as the link because of her name, but he was not burned by her.

[Nicola]

Guys... it is called symbolism. This show is full of it.

Aeryn Sun = radiation = Icarus - all symbolism. Greek mythology is full of it too, so you have symbolism on top of symbolism. Layers of it. Rich, rich storytelling.

[Namrat]

Daedalus Demands... presumably the abandoned Ancients (servant/guardians to the race 'Einstein' came from), in the form of John's father, want John to help undo the damage of leaving Furlow with wormhole tech, which will be sold to the Scarrans. Sure, John hadn't shared any of the knowledge he'd been given from them with her (he hadn't met them yet), but still, they had more or less declared him responsible for her. That's the demand.

Icarus Abides... in this case TJ, the tragic hero who bravely does as he's told, wrecklessly finishes the job, even though it brings him too close to harms way. So it's not a direct take on the myth. The symmetry of the title still stands. John wasn't careful. He made heroic gestures throughout that episode in the interest of keeping the secret from the Scarrans. He may have had his hand forced at every turn, but he accepted the responsibility to the end. He abided by the Ancients' demand.

That is my take on it too . . . I believe you have to take the two titles of this series to "get behind" its meaning . . .

the Ancient (who concidently had taken on the image of JC's father: Jack -- Daedalus) had given him a gift (the knowledge of wormhole technology to escape the FS universe back to Earth -- the wings to escape the confines of the imprisonment back to his home) . . . in return Jack asked that he not abuse or give the wormhole technology to someone who would abuse it; to use it for its intent (travel) and not as a weapon (to not fly too close to the sun; to use the wings to escape and not for anything else) . . . JC messed up (intentionally or not) and gave the wormhole technology to another (Icarsu flew too close to the sun) . . . however, JC had an opportunity to make up for his mistake and he accepted Jack's request at his (Jack's) death to finish what they had started: this is the Daedalus "demands" as Lee has noted . . . (to destroy the wormhole technology that was in the Scarren's computer) . . . thus, JC "abides" by the wishes of the Ancient and more importantly to Jack (the Ancient with whom he had a personal relationship with) . . . and as a result, JC dies in the attempt

[Namrat]

APM is an episode I really have a hard time liking... but there was so much subtext going on with TJohn references and Chiana's rape and its connection with her visions that I find it utterly compelling. Don't like it.... but it is weirdly fascinating.

I'll take a close look at this espisode too . . . thanks Nicola

[blue]

"Along this line can anyone tell me where to find clues that could make us think MJ has TJ's memories? "

here are some threads about it

http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27033
http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23934


and I think there were others as well