I'm surprised there are no threads for The Way We Weren't

[Chi27]

Again, like LATP, LGM, DMD which come later in S2, this a great episode. I saw it for the first time last night. Very insightful in seeing Aeryn in flashback before she meant the Moya crew. It never fails that there seems to be a surprise lurking around every corner when I watch an eppy as I didn't know until watching this episode that someone else had said those words, "You can be more more" to Aeryn besides John. Gradually, she took that advice to heart.

So what did everyone think of the unspoken language between them at the end?

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John and Aeryn sit at the table in Command.

CRICHTON: Velorek said that he’d always remember you. And you, have you…?

AERYN: Mm. He said that in the right new place, I would thrive.

CRICHTON: He was right.

AERYN: You know. That time when he asked me to go with him, he said, “You can be so much more.” That was exactly what you said to me on the first day I was here.

CRICHTON: And you… say you think… you love this man?

Aeryn sighs and looks at John, a small smiles seems to form briefly, then she looks away, and John looks down… Aeryn looks back at him and he glances back at her…. All of this... fraught with meaning… what meaning, is anyone's guess.

[Selena]

There is now :aok:

[Darth Buddha]

It was a very good episode, for 'shippers & non-'shippers alike.

[Nicola]

I really enjoyed the Pilot backstory in that episode, and the Pilot/Aeryn interaction which illuminated a huge amount about both their characters. I finally began to understand some of the reasons that Pilot related to Aeryn better than any of the other members of Moya's crew.

Great story. Plus it didn't hurt that the Velorek storyline was just exceptional. I know that Aeryn thinks he is dead, but I rather wistfully hope that he is not...

[JrMissToughChick]

wasn't it the first shippy ep?

"and you say you think you loved this man?"

It was good the first time I saw it I think I missed the first half so I tought that they were ordered together? well you know what I mean... it's the first we here of PK Recreation.

[Chi27]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick
wasn't it the first shippy ep?

"and you say you think you loved this man?"

It was good the first time I saw it I think I missed the first half so I tought that they were ordered together? well you know what I mean... it's the first we here of PK Recreation.

I guess you can sort of count it as the first 'shippy one if you don't count AHR which was in S1. So this was the first mention of PK "recreation". So by definition, was it pure recreation that first time she and John did the deed? Remember in AHR, she was back to business the next morning. No lingering sentimentality there at all.

To answer your question, they weren't ordered together.

[JrMissToughChick]

Nah I know that but when I first watched it I missed the first half so that's just what I assumed from the talk about going with him and her wating back on prowler duty

[Chi27]

Originally posted by Nicola
Great story. Plus it didn't hurt that the Velorek storyline was just exceptional. I know that Aeryn thinks he is dead, but I rather wistfully hope that he is not...

You're right, his was a very exceptional storyline. Aeryn is probably correct in thinking that he was executed, but you know what we didn't see a body and so anything is possible. Though I don't know what more can be done with that character.

[norweigan_scaper]

Originally posted by Nicola
I really enjoyed the Pilot backstory in that episode, and the Pilot/Aeryn interaction which illuminated a huge amount about both their characters. I finally began to understand some of the reasons that Pilot related to Aeryn better than any of the other members of Moya's crew.

Great story. Plus it didn't hurt that the Velorek storyline was just exceptional. I know that Aeryn thinks he is dead, but I rather wistfully hope that he is not...

yup, totally firecracker,
i've got the feeling he's not really gone either. Not sure if that makes me happy for aeryn or sad for john. Either way, that would make for interesting TV, a bit like the B5 episode where sheridan's wife returns from Zahadun (sp?) and he's torn between his old love and his new love.

NS

[JrMissToughChick]

She only new him for less a month if I remeber right She'd chose John duh nobrainer... BTW I think Sheridan chose Dellin(sp) not his deadish wife remember the msg. he left her? somthing about having to go because in the future she told him not to go wich he thought would change things... SO sorry way off topic here back to the regularly scheduled thread already in progress

[norweigan_scaper]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick
She only new him for less a month if I remeber right She'd chose John duh nobrainer... BTW I think Sheridan chose Dellin(sp) not his deadish wife remember the msg. he left her? somthing about having to go because in the future she told him not to go wich he thought would change things... SO sorry way off topic here back to the regularly scheduled thread already in progress

the bottom line; to add my own scaper biased commentary-
scape shippy, is infinately better than B5 shippy,

JMTC, i'm a little fuzzy on my B5 history, i haven't seen the series in ages,

NS

[Chi27]

So what was everyone's thoughts regarding what was left unspoken between J&A in that final scene?

It's very revealing as to what seems to be foremost in John's mind after Aeryn reminds him that he had said those words to her the first day they met. I think what he wants to ask her is if she still loves Velorek instead he reflects back what she had told him earlier more or less. Then there's the uncomfortable silence between them.

As for bringing this character back, what purpose could it serve if there was a S5 after the mini. There's no doubt in Aeryn's mind who she loves and there's no way Velorek could come between that. No decision to be made there at all. Maybe the window of opportunity passed in S3 to bring him back during the whole twin storyline. However, didn't Aeryn have her hands full dealing with the two John's let alone bringing back an old flame from the past.

[norweigan_scaper]

wow, easy with the spoilers there, this is a season 2 thread:D

of course, you're right, john wants to ask aeryn certain questions, but i think (and rightly so) he's worried about coming off as self-centred, after all, the story has been about her coming to grips with her past, the turmoil, and John should be there to help her along, as support. I'm certain that there is a part of Aeryn that still care for Velorek but there's another part of Aeryn that knows that her actions have most definately closed that door (even if he survived by some miracle)

NS

[JrMissToughChick]

Originally posted by norweigan_scaper
the bottom line; to add my own scaper biased commentary-
scape shippy, is infinately better than B5 shippy,

JMTC, i'm a little fuzzy on my B5 history, i haven't seen the series in ages,

NS [Off topic]///Well duh J/A ship is sooo much beter than J/D ship... but I was more into other ships on that show so I can't be trusted to be objective on it

I haven't saw those eps in ages either but I remembered most of it still... BIG SCIFI NERD AND ALL :rollin: ///[/Off Topic]


Back on topic I thought that the final scene was great it also brings me to the scene in NE so much is left unsaid but there is also so much that was infered John loves Aeryn... Aeryn can't admit she loves John because the only other man she loved she betraid (I kinda feel as though she doesn't trust herself with emotions at this point) wich blows up in there face in LATP :D

[norweigan_scaper]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick

Back on topic I thought that the final scene was great it also brings me to the scene in NE so much is left unsaid but there is also so much that was infered John loves Aeryn... Aeryn can't admit she loves John because the only other man she loved she betraid (I kinda feel as though she doesn't trust herself with emotions at this point) wich blows up in there face in LATP :D

i think you just hit the nail on the head, but god we're all so hopelessly hooked!:love:

NS

[norweigan_scaper]

hey all, just remembered one of my fav music vids is about this very episode,

http://www.farscapefantasy.com/videos/index.php?set=video&id=104

NS

[Chi27]

Originally posted by JrMissToughChick


Back on topic I thought that the final scene was great it also brings me to the scene in NE so much is left unsaid but there is also so much that was infered John loves Aeryn... Aeryn can't admit she loves John because the only other man she loved she betraid (I kinda feel as though she doesn't trust herself with emotions at this point) wich blows up in there face in LATP :D

Without the words being said, you definitely get the idea that he's in love with her in that scene, as well as all throughout the episode. First of all, he was the one who tried the most to understand her actions in those years prior to their meeting. Everyone else had written her off and wanted her gone. He was the one to comfort her and got her to talk to him after her breakdown.

Yes, she's definitely afraid of emotions at this point after Velorek and you can see that she's fighting her feelings for John in LATP until curiosity got the better of both them and they did the "taste test".

[Chi27]

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:::sigh::: You can definitely feel the love he has for her in this scene below.


INTERCUT

FLASH FORWARD PERSPECTIVE (THE PRESENT)

Aeryn, in the cargo bay, pounds the training bag for all she is worth while we glimpse flashbacks of the killing of the Pilot. Finally the fury of her attack knocks the bag backward and she collapses to the mat-sobbing brokenly, knuckles of both hands a bloody mess. The sound of footsteps, slowly approaching can be heard, and a pair of peacekeeper boots enters the frame near her head - we hear John’s voice.


CRICHTON: You’re makin’ hamburger there.


John drops to his right knee, placing one hand gently on her shoulder and another on her arm. She jumps at his touch, and tries to push him away again, but he is insistent as he kneels down, crouching next to her.


CRICHTON: ( whispering ) Talk to me… come on. ( leaning on one elbow, whispering in her ear ) What happened back then? ( lifting her head from the floor ) …huh?


As he lifts her, cradling her head against his shoulder, she flails her arms at him weakly, attempting to push him away, trying to pull away at the same time, without much success- her broken sobbing continues unabated, but her struggling subsides, he cradles her in his arms, stroking her hair, rocking slightly, consoling her.


CRICHTON: ..shhhh…

[PK2003]

I don't mean to impose on you guys, but remember who Velorek was turned over to? This may answer the question whther he is still around...

[Chi27]

Originally posted by PK2003
I don't mean to impose on you guys, but remember who Velorek was turned over to? This may answer the question whther he is still around...

I have no doubt that Crais had him executed.

[Clarsax]

Originally posted by Chi27
Without the words being said, you definitely get the idea that he's in love with her in that scene, as well as all throughout the episode. First of all, he was the one who tried the most to understand her actions in those years prior to their meeting. Everyone else had written her off and wanted her gone. He was the one to comfort her and got her to talk to him after her breakdown.

I'm not so sure about this. I think John did have feelings for her at this point, but in season 1 and part of season 2 he was like this for everyone. There were a lot of scenes in which he acted as the friend who's always there for everyone else. He risked his own mind trying to save Zhaan when she lost hers in RIB, he was there for Chiana all the times that no one else was, and he defended everyone he came across who was being treated the way Moya's crew treated Aeryn. This is just the type of guy he is, that he'll do that for someone. I think there was some definite attraction to Aeryn, but if it had been someone like Chiana in her place, he would have defended her just the same.

I'm sure that Crais had Velorek executed. In a way he committed treason by messing with Crais' pet project, and back then Crais was the kind of guy you didn't want to cross. Maybe that is one reason why Aeryn had such a hard time sharing her feelings with anyone. Velorek was a lot like John. John told her she could be more and Velorek said the same thing by telling her how special she was. Aeryn I think felt guilty for betraying Velorek and selling out to Crais. She may have been remembering her history with Velorek and possibly even feeling that guilt whenever Crichton happened to remind her of her former love. Perhaps that is why she tried so hard at first to keep him at a distance.

[Nicola]

Originally posted by Clarsax
I'm sure that Crais had Velorek executed. In a way he committed treason by messing with Crais' pet project, and back then Crais was the kind of guy you didn't want to cross.

Aeryn thinks that Velorek was executed (even if she didn't say so) but when Crais came to arrest Velorek he said that "we can find no evidence of your attempts to sabotage my project." And later Aeryn said that Crais "never got [Velorek] to talk. He never told them what he’d done to sabotage Crais’ plan."

I know that Crais was all powerful on his command carrier, but even he might have hesitated to execute an officer who was "fairly high in the Military Tech Hierarchy". Especially since he would have had to justify it to First Command.

As well, Velorek wasn't part of Crais' Command Carrier personnel. He was on temporary assignment.

I am not suggesting that Velorek is definitely alive, or that Crais wasn't crazy enough to kill him in spite of the lack of evidence.

But.... Crais was not a born peacekeeper, he always had to work against his plebian roots. Therefore I don't think he would have been foolish enough to execute Velorek without cast iron proof.

Just my 2 cents.

[Chi27]

Originally posted by Clarsax
I'm not so sure about this. I think John did have feelings for her at this point, but in season 1 and part of season 2 he was like this for everyone. There were a lot of scenes in which he acted as the friend who's always there for everyone else. He risked his own mind trying to save Zhaan when she lost hers in RIB, he was there for Chiana all the times that no one else was, and he defended everyone he came across who was being treated the way Moya's crew treated Aeryn. This is just the type of guy he is, that he'll do that for someone. I think there was some definite attraction to Aeryn, but if it had been someone like Chiana in her place, he would have defended her just the same.

I'm sure that Crais had Velorek executed. In a way he committed treason by messing with Crais' pet project, and back then Crais was the kind of guy you didn't want to cross. Maybe that is one reason why Aeryn had such a hard time sharing her feelings with anyone. Velorek was a lot like John. John told her she could be more and Velorek said the same thing by telling her how special she was. Aeryn I think felt guilty for betraying Velorek and selling out to Crais. She may have been remembering her history with Velorek and possibly even feeling that guilt whenever Crichton happened to remind her of her former love. Perhaps that is why she tried so hard at first to keep him at a distance.

What sets his interactions with Aeryn apart from the examples you gave with Zhaan and Chiana is that he and Aeryn had been intimate in S1 even if it was only once. Obviously, at that time (after AHR) she didn't want it to go any further and he didn't push it. But that doesn't mean that his feelings for her didn't continue to grow which is what I think we're seeing in the exercise mat scene. The guilt over what she had done to Velorek was no doubt overwhelming which is why she kept him at arms length all that time.

[chasa]

I am racing through S2 at the moment and just saw this episode a few days ago. It was wonderful...beautiful character explorations of both Aeryn and Pilot. I think what makes the final scene between John and Aeryn so good is that it's delicate -- clearly they've got feelings for each other and we've seen over the course of the episode why Aeryn is pushing him away. We also see the sort of man who touched Aeryn's emotions before. Someone sensitive, someone who believed she could be more. And when (as Clarsax said) she draws the parallel between him and John by mentioning that he said the same thing to her (about being more), and he asks if she loved "this man," that's the delicacy -- they're talking about Velorek and about their own complicated relationship at the same time. I don't think she loves John yet, but they both see that they're poised on the brink of something more. Aeryn isn't cured of her insecurities, but there's possibility. I'm glad they left that ending very tentative, so that it inspires questions rather than answers!

[waltersgirl]

and he asks if she loved "this man," that's the delicacy -- they're talking about Velorek and about their own complicated relationship at the same time.

that's always how i saw that scene too. i differ in that i think John has been in love with Aeryn since just about day one.

[stlscape]

that's always how i saw that scene too. i differ in that i think John has been in love with Aeryn since just about day one.
I'm with you on this, wg - at least since the "You can be more" statement.

[chasa]

Yeah, I definitely think he fell first though I've been watching so fast (new fan, catching up) that I haven't developed an opinion on exactly when...but damn, the only thing I know for sure is that I've been in love with *them* since the very first moment they saw each other. I've always been a staunch non-shipper with other shows, so it kind of shocks me how hard I fell for these two. I thought I was was immune ;)

[waltersgirl]

i was talking with red about this earlier, partly because i typically don't participate in ep discussions. they drive me batty. anyway, by Home Again, he is definately toast where Aeryn is concerned, and not because they slept together. Aeryn asks him to choose in this ep, them or earth, and he chooses them. it's the first time, i think, that he realizes he can't go home because his home has changed. it's with them now.

[StarsGoBlue]

from the first moment i laid eyes on you i could never see the end

:love: *shippy sigh*

[grinner]

from the first moment i laid eyes on you i could never see the end

:love: *shippy sigh*ugh... :yuck: there is more to the show than shippy moments... sheesh... :g2f:

[StarsGoBlue]

:rolleyes: no one is saying there isn't, dearie... ;) but the current topic is when was john first in love with aeryn. hence the *shippy sigh* and lots of :love:

[grinner]

:rolleyes: no one is saying there isn't, dearie... ;) but the current topic is when was john first in love with aeryn. hence the *shippy sigh* and lots of :love:
I know... I just had to give my anti-shippy sign. I do agree that John was in love with Aeryn from the first time he set eyes on her.

[StarsGoBlue]

:hug: anti-shippy (angst) can be good too... i'm writing death!fic right now... :devil:

well, deathandtaxes!fic, to be more precise... :ewink:

[Dutch]

ugh... :yuck: there is more to the show than shippy moments... sheesh... :g2f:

:rolleyes: LOL

[waltersgirl]

ugh... there is more to the show than shippy moments... sheesh... bite me.

[Jeff O'Connor]

bite me.

:rollin:

[grinner]

bite me.
uh... uh... uh... :innocent:

[waltersgirl]

:lol good answer.

like life, there is more to it than love, but also like life, love is an enormous component, in all of its infinite forms. since this discussion was about their love, or its development thereof, in particular, ship!snark was out of place. otoh, constant fawning over ship makes me hork, precisely *because* there is so much "else" to the show....which is actually part of the reason i so very rarely participate in ep discussions. the other reason is the seemingly perpetual need to deconstruct them ad nauseum. art, by definition, is the whole being more than simply the sum of its parts. but...that's just me, and i watch/read very much differently than most, it seems.

[grinner]

:lol good answer. :D thankyou...

like life, there is more to it than love, but also like life, love is an enormous component, in all of its infinite forms. since this discussion was about their love, or its development thereof, in particular, ship!snark was out of place. otoh, constant fawning over ship makes me hork, precisely *because* there is so much "else" to the show....which is actually part of the reason i so very rarely participate in ep discussions. the other reason is the seemingly perpetual need to deconstruct them ad nauseum. art, by definition, is the whole being more than simply the sum of its parts. but...that's just me, and i watch/read very much differently than most, it seems.I agree with you... that is one reason why I also refrain from episode discussions. They either become a similar discussion where one person or group holds on view and continuously advance their views... I get enough of that in the political threads over in the OT's.:D

[bummer23]

I don't see how I missed this ep the whole time, but I finally watched it yesterday. One thing that struck me..... If she loved Velorek, but betrayed him for her own purposes in the end.... I would have been watching my ass if I were John!! :scare: :boom:

[blue]

There were other discussion threads, but they have been trimmed when the site got too big--kind of wish they had been saved--I sometimes got insights in the old episode discussions about things I hadn't thought about or noticed or put together--I don't agree that they were mostly "positions" like political threads-there were a lot of smart people with a lot of interesting thoughts.

This is one of my favorite all-time episodes. What a powerful episode! And we get to know much more about Pilot-that he's been in PAIN in all the previous episodes, for one thing. No wonder he only shrugged at having an arm cut off.

I don't think this is the first romantic episode--I would have to give that to The Flax. When they thought they were about to die...And the little smile Aeryn almost has at the end when he asks her, You ARE the female of your species, aren't you? (I don't count the first time they sleep together, since for her it does seem like just "recreating," and it doesn't lead to anything more.)

In one of the commentaries in season 1 it was suggested that the moment John really falls hopelessly for Aeryn is when she is lying helpless after being stabbed in Nerve, and he has to help her. Before that, he was kind of interested in Gillena, but after that moment, he is nice to Gillena, and trying to not hurt her, but something has shifted. He is kind to her at the end, but her loss doesn't hurt him very much.

[MrX]

Is it just me, or does D'Argo never seem to win Rock, Paper, Scissors?

[pkgrl]

No, I don't think we've EVER seen D'Argo win at Rock, Paper, Scissors! :lol

I've always loved this eppy, too. One of the first times I thought, why the FRELL am I crying? He's a puppet! But those scenes with Pilot were so gut wrenching! :( And Claud was brilliant in her final scene with Pilot... just brilliant.

And based on Aeryn's comment in PkTG "... I found you-- interesting," I always thought she was falling for John first. I think that comment opened his eyes... he was able to see that Aeryn had layers. She kept them hidden most of the time, but they're there... and I think this makes him more curious to know more.

I think he was intrigued by her at first, but I don't think he actually fell in love with her until much later... even much later than A Human Reaction. The sex in that was more of a comfort for both of them... as it would have been in The Flax. There's definately attraction between them, and since death seems close, why not? :lech: But I don't think either one was really "in love" until late season one or early season two. Key to their developing relationship is this exchange in Throught the Looking Glass: Aeryn -- "I didn't know if you were coming back." John -- "I'd never leave you." A Bug's Life is right after this and by Nerve, John's keeping Gillina at arms length... because his feelings have changed. But I don't think he's completely in love with Aeryn just yet. He's definately getting there, and so is she. After all, who wouldn't love the guy who's willing to go through torture to save your life?

Jeez, I could go on forever, but RL becons. ;)

[MALCOLM XERXES]

wasn't it the first shippy ep?

"and you say you think you loved this man?"

It was good the first time I saw it I think I missed the first half so I tought that they were ordered together? well you know what I mean... it's the first we here of PK Recreation.WED. OCT. 5/2004/21:19 E.S.T.

MTC,

What about FARSCAPE™: “P.K. TECH GIRL”; doesn’t that count?

[MALCOLM XERXES]

yup, totally firecracker,
i've got the feeling he's not really gone either. Not sure if that makes me happy for aeryn or sad for john. Either way, that would make for interesting TV, a bit like the B5 episode where sheridan's wife returns from Zahadun (sp?) and he's torn between his old love and his new love.

NSWED. OCT. 5/2004/21:23 E.S.T.

NS,

With all due respect to MS. MIRA FURLAN, if a living or zombified MS. MELISSA GILBERT forced me to choose between them, there could be ructions! ;)

[norweigan_scaper]

WED. OCT. 5/2004/21:23 E.S.T.

NS,

With all due respect to MS. MIRA FURLAN, if a living or zombified MS. MELISSA GILBERT forced me to choose between them, there could be ructions! ;)
you make a valid argument Malcolm ;)

[Chi27]

I've always loved this eppy, too. One of the first times I thought, why the FRELL am I crying? He's a puppet! But those scenes with Pilot were so gut wrenching! :( And Claud was brilliant in her final scene with Pilot... just brilliant.

Those two know how to nail a scene. Beyond John's "you say you loved this guy..." there is nothing else said and between the two of them, they nail it. :D

I think he was intrigued by her at first, but I don't think he actually fell in love with her until much later... even much later than A Human Reaction. The sex in that was more of a comfort for both of them... as it would have been in The Flax. There's definately attraction between them, and since death seems close, why not? :lech: But I don't think either one was really "in love" until late season one or early season two. Key to their developing relationship is this exchange in Throught the Looking Glass: Aeryn -- "I didn't know if you were coming back." John -- "I'd never leave you." A Bug's Life is right after this and by Nerve, John's keeping Gillina at arms length... because his feelings have changed. But I don't think he's completely in love with Aeryn just yet. He's definately getting there, and so is she. After all, who wouldn't love the guy who's willing to go through torture to save your life?

I think John was beginning to fall in love with her in AHR. I think Aeryn's brush off about the night before and the fact that she jumped out of bed and dressed, spoke of more than just sexual intimacy that passed between them that night. That being that both of them felt something for the other that went beyond reducing bodily fluids.

By Nerve & The Hidden Memory, he was totally in love with her. He was showing her and, the audience, just how far he'd go for her. By the time Mind the Baby rolled around, I think Aeryn was beginning to relax around him. I remember the first I saw the tag scene where he's playing her hair and she's sitting between his legs and she leans back against him. I went WHOA! WHAT HAPPENED! They just weren't at that point where they could talk about what they were feeling for each other.

[Lost Like Me]

I remember the first I saw the tag scene where he's playing her hair and she's sitting between his legs and she leans back against him. I went WHOA! WHAT HAPPENED! They just weren't at that point where they could talk about what they were feeling for each other.
That was a WHOA! moment for me too. It's when "I" realized they loved each other. They still weren't willing to go there yet though. I always imagined they got nekkid after they left Pilot. ;)

[Chi27]

That was a WHOA! moment for me too. It's when "I" realized they loved each other. They still weren't willing to go there yet though. I always imagined they got nekkid after they left Pilot. ;)

Um...that's an idea. The only problem with that is we have the teaser in LATP where Aeryn says she won't be a slave to his hormones, yet admits that she scented her hair to see if he'd notice. Maybe they fooled around a little. I can't imagine either one of them letting it go at that. :D

[Maieve]

Has Pilot ever became jealous of Chriton's relationship with Aeryn? He obviously sometimes feels a little left out considering he can't move physically from his den. And I don't mean physical relationship in anyway. (Still trying to get my hands on all the episodes, T.T my friend hasn't let me barrow her dvd's yet)

[ctheokas]

wasn't it the first shippy ep?

I've just come to this thread, so if someone's answered this, my bad...

I think the first signs that there was going to be shippy-ness was in PK Tech Girl. Rememer, Aeryn thought John was "interesting," and let's be honest, she was jealous.



OK, so PKGRL said it first. That's the first real sign. I think it makes sense, and part of me thinks that the creators knew they would be going that way with it. I'm not sure if it was love at first sight for John, but it happened pretty fast.