WAR ON DRUGS -- your opinion

[NebariNookiee]

I’m very curious about this – I’ve seen some of the views on a handful of topics – but I want to ask everyone here something: What is your opinion on the 80 year old War on Drugs? Whether you feel it does or not – it effects everyone, including those who have no desire to ever take drugs in the first place. I want to hear everyone’s take on it.

But lets keep this in a debate/discussion and keep tempers calm – If it gets too crazy I’ll delete the thread myself.

[LiLOrion]

It seems like a losing battle to me - on the whole.

[DRD2001]

People always want what they are not suppose to have.

I think it is a losing battle. If you want people to stop doing drugs, then you should tax it into oblivion like cigarettes.

[fermicat]

I think that some aspects of the War On Drugs are unconstitutional, such as the expanded powers of search and seizure, and how the government can take private property "on suspicion" of it somehow having something to do with drug possession and it is left up to the property owner to prove that it didn't. Many of my objections to items within the Patriot Act would apply equally to the War On Drugs.

If (some) drugs were legal, then much of the crime associated with illicit drug use would no longer happen. Also, I find our nation's approach to drug classification to be illogical - it doesn't seem to have as much to do with actual danger, but more to do with not upsetting existing industries. For example, I think in some ways pot is less dangerous than alcohol, but alcohol is legal and pot is not.

Lastly, just as with the War On Terror, the War On Drugs will never be over. This is perhaps the most frightening aspect of both "wars". They are used as justification for curtailing certain civil liberties and they will just go on and on, and be used for this purpose more and more. I think we need a fresh approach, particularly in the War On Drugs, since the current approach is obviously NOT having the desired effect of eliminating illegal drug use and associated crime.

[Darth Buddha]

It's a boonedoggle, but there are those who like to beat a dead horse in both politics and voting.

Plus, it is another good reason to increase the power of the police state ...

[B Sharp]

I have really mixed feelings on this- on the one hand (my libertarian mode), I think we should just legalize it all, do a lot of education about the impact of addiction, and let people make their own choices (and tax the heck out of it, as DRD2001 said).

On the other hand, the cost of addiction is ernormous. We have mounting healthcare costs, and a lot of us baby-boomers already have trouble affording health insurance. Much of the cost of public health is associated with this same topic- there's a lot of people that go into public hospitals (that your property tax pays for, at least where I live) because they abuse a drug- and every study I've ever seen says prevention is less expensive than any other approach.

On the other other hand (it seems I have at least three hands here), I wonder if the War on Drugs is really having any impact on their use. I sort of doubt that the efforts to reduce supply by taking drug runner's fancy boats are having a big impact... but I do think that the education efforts work. I'm not talking about the ads that run every few years (this is your brain on drugs, sizzle sizzle), I mean real education for kids in school that doesn't preach, but informs...

I'll stop here before I find another hand, but thanks for asking this question and starting the discussion- I'm going to look forward to seeing what others' think.

[NebariNookiee]

See – much of the reasoning why these drugs are illegal is due to racial prejudice and outright lies. Cocaine was legal, prescribed, and endorsed by the pharmaceutical companies in the late 1800’s through the early 1900s. It took Southern states and their racial hatred for blacks that made that illegal (claming black men would rape their white women when taking Coke). As far as taxing out of existence – the US Government already tried that in 1937 when they passed the Marihuana Tax Act effectively banning recreational and medicinal use of cannabis – plus the lobbyist for the cotton industry pushing to ban hemp in all it’s uses. (The Cotton Gin was originally designed to de-seed hemp)

Not to mention that for all of the money spent on stopping the black market trafficking of the drugs does absolutely nothing. For every one bust of a shipment – there’s more than 100 getting through.

This is why I have such a problem with this War on Drugs – the reasoning and rational used to perpetrate the propaganda are nothing but a pack of lies and twisting of facts in order to prey upon folks fears (much like the War on Terror – but I won’t go there… promise)

[B Sharp]

Originally posted by NebariNookiee
...Cocaine was legal, prescribed, and endorsed by the pharmaceutical companies in the late 1800’s through the early 1900s. ...

Yep, you're right about that- and lithium was in 7-Up; opium was also in routine use. The problem was that the public was not informed of the effects of the products, and the health issues were not well understood.

I agree that hemp is a damn useful product- and besides it's also a better fiber in many ways that cotton- but I'm not sure I buy that we be better off if we still had cocaine, lithium, and opium in our soft drinks...

[Scarran Raptor]

Personally I think it's a losing battle and much like every other noble experiment, it's become a sick mutation of itself far removed from the original intent, look at Prohibition for example, and on a personal note, I suffer from Crohn's disease and have ever since I was 11, and do you know how wierd it was hearing "say no to drugs" and "say no to steroids" and then going home and popping a drenload of pills including Prednisone (an Anabolic steroid)? it messes you up something fierce, that's for frelling sure

[NebariNookiee]

Originally posted by B Sharp
I agree that hemp is a damn useful product- and besides it's also a better fiber in many ways that cotton- but I'm not sure I buy that we be better off if we still had cocaine, lithium, and opium in our soft drinks...

That's not what I was implying -- I'd better clarify.

Cocaine was considered the miracle drug of the new century (the 20th century to be exact) It was in just about everything topical, over the counter, you name it. It was only discovered to be seriously addictive after the fact (meaning after it was made illegal) but the reasoning why it was made illegal in the first place were based on lies and political rhetoric from the Southern states.

The Opium epidemic in China was twisted into a form of propaganda for this movement too – but what they failed to mention was that the reason there was an epidemic in the first place was because Britain had forced this drug onto the Chinese population centuries before in order to keep the people subjugated. It didn’t matter to the politicians at all and they happily twisted the story to fit their own agenda.

It’s the same thing about Marijuana being such an evil thing. The “Gateway” theory is a load of dren. And I’ll explain. I’ll use the Comic Book Crackdown in the early 1950s as my example – A doctor named Frederic Wertham did a study on juvenile crimes. He interviewed all of these kids who were incarcerated for crimes and had asked them specifically if they read comic books – every one of them said yes. He concluded that comic books were the cause of juvenile delinquency. What he failed to understand was that at that time comic books were read by practically every child in the US – it was usually the first purchase kids made with allowances or from odd jobs (along with penny candy and things of that nature).

What the gateway theory presents as a causal explanation is a statistic association between common an uncommon drugs, an association that changes over time as different drugs increase and decrease in prevalence. They say Marijuana use leads to harder drugs even if marijuana itself causes minimal harm. The rational for this because anyone who tries Marijuana is more likely to try heroin, LSD, and cocaine under the idea that anyone who takes these other drugs.

Marijuana is the most popular illegal drug in the United States today. Therefore, people who have used less popular drugs such as heroin, cocaine, and LSD, are likely to have also used marijuana. Most marijuana users never use any other illegal drug. In fact, for the large majority of people, marijuana is a terminus rather than a gateway drug (meaning that they are completely happy just sticking with smoking weed).

I can vouch for this – 16 years and never had the desire to try anything else. I even quit smoking cigarettes and I hardly ever drink anymore.

[LiLOrion]

Originally posted by fermicat
Also, I find our nation's approach to drug classification to be illogical - it doesn't seem to have as much to do with actual danger, but more to do with not upsetting existing industries. For example, I think in some ways pot is less dangerous than alcohol, but alcohol is legal and pot is not.


I agree with you 110%!

The government makes a hell of a lot of money on alcohol and cigarettes and quite frankly I think they kill a hell of a lot more people than the other drugs...although if you factor in the turf wars and the related violence, maybe not.


They might as well just classify a drug as anything that is addictive, but then chocoholics and carb-fiends would be freaking out in the streets from withdraw as well and that would not be a pretty site.

[NebariNookiee]

Originally posted by LiLOrion
but then chocoholics and carb-fiends would be freaking out in the streets from withdraw as well and that would not be a pretty site.

I have a vision of some guy - all dirty and smelly, rubbing his arm in a jonezing manner coming up to someone and saying "I'll :censored: your :censored: for a donut"

Now THATS funny!:D

[grinner]

I personally am anti-drug. I have done drugs in the past, but haven't touched anything that wasn't prescribed to me in over 12 years. I think that people that do do drugs are a bit foolish and I used to think that the 'War' on Drugs was a good thing. One of my biggest problems with the Libertarian Party was their position on the 'Drug Problem'. But, over the years, I have moderated my view. I now think that marijuana and other drugs should be legalized. For a number of reasons.
[list=1]
It will create a new taxable item
It will hopefully stop the illegal drug trade
It will hopefully end the illegal farming of drug crops in the State Forests
It will bring the drugs under Government control, so as to make the drugs as 'clean' as possible.
[/list=1]
What really made me change my view on the 'Drug Problem' was finding out what things could be made/done better with Hemp and Hemp oil. Soy is a wonderful product... but Hemp is 50 to 80x better. The yield from a hemp field would stop/slow down the need for clear-cutting most forests, reduce the need on a wasteful plant (cotton) and produce longer lasting and warmer clothing... and make Bio-Diesel more of a viable product.
That and the fact that people who do drugs/predisposed to do drugs will have a cleaner product.

I still am wary of legalizing all drugs, cause there are some that do serious damage to the body... but if someone is wanting to drugs, they are going to and will do them.

My only concern is who will take care of all those drug users when their bodies start to fail.

[NebariNookiee]

Originally posted by grinner
My only concern is who will take care of all those drug users when their bodies start to fail.
Simple – doctors will simply prescribe more drugs to them.

[Digger]

Originally posted by Scarran Raptor
Personally I think it's a losing battle and much like every other noble experiment, it's become a sick mutation of itself far removed from the original intent, look at Prohibition for example, and on a personal note, I suffer from Crohn's disease and have ever since I was 11, and do you know how wierd it was hearing "say no to drugs" and "say no to steroids" and then going home and popping a drenload of pills including Prednisone (an Anabolic steroid)? it messes you up something fierce, that's for frelling sure I've had Crohn's for 20 years, SR. I know exactly what you mean. I'll be paying for the Prednisone use the rest of my life (although thankfully I am off it now in favor of Remicade) There was a time I was in so much pain that I was routinely taking hard drugs (prescribed). I feared addiction, but feared the pain more.

[BaseLine]

Originally posted by NebariNookiee
Simple – doctors will simply prescribe more drugs to them.

Not so simple. There are also people who will lose their jobs and their homes. They just live on the streets (junkies) and there's not much you can do about it. But I think that these problems already exist in the major cities in the U.S.

[NebariNookiee]

Don't let the hype fool you -- the majority of homeless on the streets are of two kinds -- people with severe mental problems and people who have lost their jobs and everything else. There are very few junkies who live on the streets – homeless people can’t afford the drugs. I’ve been on the streets – I’ve seen and gotten to know these people. Many of them are decent people who have had life shit on them. Others are just plain wacko from mental disorders. It’s very rare when you see a homeless junky. Usually they die or get put into institutions before that happens. And if you do meet a homeless person who’s under the influence of anything – it’s almost always cheap alcohol.

[DRD2001]

Originally posted by grinner
My only concern is who will take care of all those drug users when their bodies start to fail. Ever hear of soylent green?

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Well, I dont' see the drug war working. I come from a very small town so I don't see drug probelms all the time. There are a few students from my high school that have done or do currently do drugs.

grinner, I know you talked about how hemp is better than soy. I assume that that is true becuase I trust you. My only thing is... my dad's a farmer... he farms corn and soybeans. If hemp were to become a huge thing... my dad would make even less money that the tiny amount he gets now. Honestly, we don't make money off our crops as it is, we survive because of governement stipends (I think that's the word...) I know that family farms are already dying... but that would only hasten it. (In my small mega-conservative community... even if it were legal... I don't know that many people would actually start to grow hemp.)

A little bit OT... but... my rhetoric class is creating anti-smoking campaigns for adolescents. It's really hard to come up with ideas that will get to students and not be something that they can easily make fun of. Kids make fun of everything.

[grinner]

Originally posted by SweetpeaAeryn

grinner, I know you talked about how hemp is better than soy. I assume that that is true becuase I trust you. My only thing is... my dad's a farmer... he farms corn and soybeans. If hemp were to become a huge thing... my dad would make even less money that the tiny amount he gets now. Honestly, we don't make money off our crops as it is, we survive because of governement stipends (I think that's the word...) I know that family farms are already dying... but that would only hasten it. (In my small mega-conservative community... even if it were legal... I don't know that many people would actually start to grow hemp.) That is one thing that worries me as well. I have alot of family in Iowa, South Dakota, and Minnesotta who are Farmers... and I hear about this quite a bit. Soy-based plastics are still cheaper to make than many other forms of plastics... and there will always be other uses for it. The unfortunate thing is that Hemp does produce more for less plants/acreage. Soy requires a larger area to produce what a small field of hemp would produce.
I have problems with Subsidies, which is the word you are looking for, but I do understand that there is a NEED for them. Corporate farms have KILLED the family farm. My problem with Subsidies is the fact that Corporate Farms pervert the Subsidise Policy inorder to get the Subsidies... when they shouldn't be able to.

[NebariNookiee]

Hemp – at this point – won’t replace anything cause too many companies have too much to lose. Hemp offers a lot of environmental advantages compared to other natural resources. Hemp is an annually renewable resource unlike trees, and it doesn't require pesticides and herbicides, like cotton does. The cellulose in hemp could be used to replace petrochemicals in plastics and fuels. The only way they can justify it being illegal is cause it’s related to Marijuana – but you can’t smoke Hemp. I saw someone do it once. He didn’t get high, he just got sick.

As far as creating a really good anti-smoking campaign – design it so it creates a dialogue with the children. Don't just leave it at "Just say 'No'" -- those don't work. Speak ‘to’ them – not ‘at’ them. Kids are smarter than most grown ups give them credit for. In fact, I know a few kids who are smarter than most adults.

[stellar]

It's done more harm than good.

[Madre Farbot]

I reckon there is a way to beat the distribution of drugs to the wider masses, but in a wacko mad-scientist kinda way.

How about concocting an anti-high super drug and administering it to the very young and then when they're at an age when they can decide for themselves to then have the super anti-dote that will give 'em the release they think they might be able to handle. Ok, this would mean legalizing drugs for adults, but because some adults are impressionable almost like children it might not be a good idea to legalize drugs people with health problems.

[SweetpeaAeryn]

Originally posted by grinner
I have problems with Subsidies, which is the word you are looking for, but I do understand that there is a NEED for them. Corporate farms have KILLED the family farm. My problem with Subsidies is the fact that Corporate Farms pervert the Subsidise Policy inorder to get the Subsidies... when they shouldn't be able to.

Oh yeah... corporate farms have taken up a lot of subsidies which is a huge problem... and honestly... up until about a year ago I thought that we didn't even get any government help, but my dad set me straight on that one. There definitely are some problems in the system that we should work very hard to change... but... we'll see if that ever happens.

Along with the anti-smoking campaign... it's really hard to come up with something that doesn't talk down to kids... which we're really trying to do. My group is also choosing to honestly try to get parents to talk to their kids, which may be even harder.

[B Sharp]

Originally posted by grinner
.....what things could be made/done better with Hemp and Hemp oil. Soy is a wonderful product... but Hemp is 50 to 80x better. The yield from a hemp field would stop/slow down the need for clear-cutting most forests, reduce the need on a wasteful plant (cotton) and produce longer lasting and warmer clothing... and make Bio-Diesel more of a viable product.
That and the fact that people who do drugs/predisposed to do drugs will have a cleaner product.

I still am wary of legalizing all drugs, cause there are some that do serious damage to the body... but if someone is wanting to drugs, they are going to and will do them.

My only concern is who will take care of all those drug users when their bodies start to fail.

re hemp and biodiesel- I hope so, because here in Ca. I'm paying about 2.90/gal for BioDiesel 100.

re: who's going to take care of those druggies? well, probably the same people that are taking care of them today, which is a real drag, since I think it's part (not all...) of why our health-care costs are rising.

[Mrelia]

Personally, I think the following things might actually occur if currently illegal drugs were regulated and taxed.
#1 - They wouldn't be spending so much money on law enforcement in catching users & dealers.
#2 - More space in the prisons for VIOLENT criminals who need to be kept under wraps.
#3 - With regulated distribution, addicts would be given the option to receive treatment for their addiction every time they went for a new supply.
#4 - With a legal, controlled system, there's no incentive for pushers to get people hooked - no profit.
#5 - Doctors would be more likely to know in advance that someone has these drugs in their system.
#8 - Birth control can be made available and strongly encouraged to help prevent pregnancies among addicts. Also, I've heard that a number of women end up pregnant through "paying" for their drugs.
#9 - Addicts would face fewer obstacles in seeking treatment.
#10 - More snack food sales would stimulate the economy.

PS - Lithium in Seven-Up? No wonder that island guy in those commercials when I was a kid was so laid-back.

[B Sharp]

Originally posted by Mrelia
PS - Lithium in Seven-Up? No wonder that island guy in those commercials when I was a kid was so laid-back.

lithium citrate was in mix until 1950 when it was 'reformulated'. It was originally marketed as a cure for upset 'tiny tummies' and young moms (as opposed to those wild/crazy coke drinkers...

[Gaussian]

Drugs should stay illegal.

But, I have a different perspective...........my first cousin is a coke addict.

She has four children that she has basically abandoned. Right now..........she is in jail.

I'm not sure what all the charges are..........but the thing that put the nail on the coffin was that she threatened my grandparents.

My family has tried to help her over a 16 year period............getting her into rehad..........several times.

And, truly if..........this stint in jail doesn't do it for her...........she's a lost cause.

Well...........really she's a lost cause in our family............anyway. No one's going to give the time of day.

If I never see her again........it will be too soon.

So..........do I think that these things should be legal?

I have to say no.

Should pot be available for those suffering from cancer? Sure. Why not?

Should we be able to grow hemp? That's a no brainer. Hell yes.

Hemp won't get you high. Let's just throw the baby out with the bathwater, why don't we?

Truthfully, my cousin has done alot of things that have put her where she is.................but it seems to me that drugs were what started her down this path.