A Farscape rip-off

[gliadrachan]

I had the misfortune to watch the Stargate series finale last night. If I had never seen any other science fiction show, this one would have seemed original. Unfortunately, this "Sci-Fi Original Series" was anything but.

1. Kinsey, by getting told off by the President while the Earth is facing invasion from an alien fleet, is a genetic clone of Albert Nimziki ( played by James Rebhorn ) in "Independence Day", who is fired by the President while the Earth is facing invasion from an alien fleet. They even look like each other.

2. Oh, the "Ancients have planted knowledge in the Jack's head". Sounds familiar, since Farscape had the same plot years ago, with the "Ancients planting wormhole knowlege in John's head".

3. The only defense saving earth is a weapon from the distant past which blasts an energy beam at approaching spaceships from orbit. The weapon is activated just in time by the protagonist. I liked it when I first saw it in "The Fifth Element". I guess because the original version was set in Egypt that Stargate's writers felt it was fair game for assimilation.

I guess Sci-Fi is a fan of the Illuminati card game: "NIce Idea, Now It's Mine".

[JrMissToughChick]

point one and three are right but two has been done by stargate around the same time as farscape the first time but I was totally thinking point three ;) oh and the whole "I have to tell you" "I know" thing ;)

[FieryHands]

In Stargate's defense, Jack had the Ancients' knowledge in his head first. The idea isn't original, because they already did it in a much earlier episode that aired before Farscape even premiered.

[Chricton]

Why are you dissing StarGate? The show is awesome. Farscape was better, but it's the best thing Scifi has at this point.

The thing about the Anceints was indeed Stargates idea first, and the "firing before invasion" has been coming now for years. Back in 98' that same guy was skeptical about invasion, and only now has he been put to rest.

The weapon was another thing that has been set up for years. Ever since 99' fans have known that powerful weapons existed somewhere, but only now realised they were actually in front of them the whole time.

[FieryHands]

Well, its not hard to say Stargate is Scifi's best, simply because everything else they have is crap. Scifi has become almost nothing but Stargate. They already air the show whenever they can, and now there is going to be a spinoff. That may be a good or bad thing, depending on whether or not you're a fan.

People have said comparing Stargate and Farscape is like comparing apples with oranges. Well, they're right since one is about a military team traveling to distant worlds to obtain tech to protect Earth, and the other about a human among a group of escaped alien prisoners. Similiar plots and ideas will arise simply because there are only so many formulas and the two shows happen to have used the generic name "Ancients" for a mysterious race of aliens and use wormholes travel about (in VERY different ways). If SG-1 reveals the reason why they somehow can understand foreign cultures is translator microbes, then something has been ripped off. Otherwise, blame formulas for the repetition. Watch every version of Star Trek and see how many times same plots are rehashed over and over. Lack of creativity, maybe, but sometimes things just overlap.

BTW, a Gater could argue that by using an Egyptian symbol to connect Earth to other races, Farscape was ripping off Stargate.

[Darth Buddha]

I liked Stargate at its zenith. But it is well past that. The season finale was a LITTLE bit better than recent fair.

Of course, I'm one of the folks who feels that Farscape Seasons 1 & 2 were superior to 3 & 4.

[Nightie]

I like Stargate, and i like Star Trek, ect ect, but maybe i don't count because i like anything that has aliens, spaceships and different planets...though even i think that SG season 7 had some really sucky episodes like Avenger 2.0, Space race and Birth right to name a few.

[Chricton]

Actaully, when I said StarGate is the best thing scifi has right now, I mean't as a genre, not the channel. If you don't count shows like The Dead Zone (which is awesome), Stargate is better than most of that other scifi crap on TV.

[Jeff O'Connor]

It should also be mentioned again that the whole idea of "ancient race implants information into mind of member of young species" has been done well before even Stargate. It's a timeless notion that has been repeated in many books and series.

[SpaceMonkey]

You cannot really do that-- criticize one show for having elements & aspects that were used before... because the fact is, all sci-fi is gonna have similar themes & similar elemnts. For fairness sake, look at Farscape.

Darth Vader & Scorpius both wear black leather suits, with masks, & a life support system built in..

Kirk & John were both 'twinned'.

Stargate used the Ancient Egypt/ Aliens connection, before it showed up on Farscape...

The 'ancient knowledge' implanted in someone's head was used in the 'Spock's Brain' episode of ST:TOS before it ever showed up on Farscape OR Stargate...

Living ships have been showing up in Anime for years-- as have tough-but-sexy feline-females with silver hair & blue/grey skin...

Intelligent, regenerating humanoid plants-- Dr Who, Swamp Thing...

A human (or group of humans), trapped in space, not knowing where they are but wanting to get home. Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Lost In Space, Planet Of The Apes...


But Farscape is still a very witty, very good, very original show. I'm sure Stargate is, too. I don't personally watch it, but I've seen a few esp that were decent stories.

[gliadrachan]

Originally posted by SpaceMonkey
You cannot really do that-- criticize one show for having elements & aspects that were used before... because the fact is, all sci-fi is gonna have similar themes & similar elemnts.

Similar is one thing. Identical is another. Compare the scene in Fifth Element - the protagonists race across the galaxy and arrive home at Earth to activate a weapon just in time to defeat the invading aliens. Stargate used the exact same plot device.

To call a show a "Sci-Fi Original Series", as the Sci-Fi network bills Stargate, when it copies plots from other movies, is simply not honest. And the Sci-Fi channel didn't "orginate" the series, they bought it from Showtime's fifth seasons, who themselves got the idea from a movie. So who are they fooling by calling it "original"?

So a more accurate tag would be "Sci-Fi's re-packaged version of Showtime's show based on a movie".

It's one thing to copy a plot idea from another source. It's quite another to copy a plot and then label the show as "Original".

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally posted by gliadrachan
... the protagonists race across the galaxy and arrive home at Earth to activate a weapon just in time to defeat the invading aliens. Stargate used the exact same plot device.

There was no racing across the Galaxy, but there was certainly an 'activate the weapon in time to defeat the invading aliens' in that very Farscape episode where John saw the Egyptian heiroglyphics...

I just don't get why you are trashing Stargate.. Yes, Sci-Fi are idiots for cancelling one of their best shows, Farscape-- but the Stargate writing team are not responsible for that.

There are enough strikes against science-fiction programming in general, without us trashing each other. You make ALL of sci-fi look bad, when you complain about how un-original the ideas are on ANY sci-fi show.

[justanotherFSlvr]

Originally posted by SpaceMonkey
You cannot really do that-- criticize one show for having elements & aspects that were used before... because the fact is, all sci-fi is gonna have similar themes & similar elemnts.


A couple of years ago, I read an article on the Web about SF plots, and how almost nothing is original anymore. I think it listed ten or twenty basic plots, and went on to cite examples from various specific works of SF literature, TV and films, and how they all fit into those basic plot lines.

I sure wish I knew where to find it, but unfortunately the Ancients only gave me certain bits of information that I can recall now, and the actual location of that site has been burried much too deep for me to access...

[gliadrachan]

Originally posted by SpaceMonkey
There was no racing across the Galaxy, but there was certainly an 'activate the weapon in time to defeat the invading aliens' in that very Farscape episode where John saw the Egyptian heiroglyphics...

I just don't get why you are trashing Stargate.. Yes, Sci-Fi are idiots for cancelling one of their best shows, Farscape-- but the Stargate writing team are not responsible for that.

There are enough strikes against science-fiction programming in general, without us trashing each other. You make ALL of sci-fi look bad, when you complain about how un-original the ideas are on ANY sci-fi show.

Pardon me comrade, I didn't realize I was violating the sacred party line by not bowing down in solidarity to pay humble homage to every science fiction show.

Do you understand the difference between "Original" and "Imitated"?

The instance you cite about "activating a weapon" is quite different from the Fifth Element plot used in Stargate.

The Fifth Element weapon was built by aliens on Earth in the distant past, and uses an energy beam. The hero races back to Earth just in time to activate the weapon to defeat invading aliens, which only he can do. The Stargate finale used the EXACT SAME THING.

Did the Farscape episode have the EXACT SAME THING ( an alien weapon on Earth, built in the distant past to defeat invading aliens; a weapon which only John can activate after racing across the galaxy ) ?

I never said Stargate writers were responsible for Farscape's cancellation.

But those writers are the ones who copied a script and passed it off as "Original".

[Darth Buddha]

It isn't limited to Science Fiction or from Science Fiction.

Example: Sherlock Holmes.

Sherlock Holmes gives us The Avengers gives us the X-Files.

Sherlock Holmes gives us Murder She Wrote.

Sherlock Holmes gives us Law and Order Criminal Intent AND CSI.

Another Example:

WWII Dogfights give us Star Wars gives us Battlestar Galactica gives us the next BSG.

The Nazi's give us Imperial Stormtroopers give us the Peace Keepers.

Another Example: Perry Mason.

Perry Mason yields Law & Order (the second half hour), The Practice, etc.

There aren't that many original ideas because:

1 Some Ideas Are Classic

2 Media Bigwigs are too cowardly and craven to dare try something new that might be fantastic when they can rely on uninspired imitation of something else.

But finally, some re-interpretations ARE inspired.

My Three Crichton's vs. The Enemy Within. Kirk was Goiod vs. Evil. Crichton was Advanced vs. Primitive ... and Primitive turned out to be the good guy, not advanced. Brilliant new play on an old idea.

[akshunj]

Folks, there hasn't been an original scifi idea for 40 years. For anyone who's a fan of the Twilight Zone or Outer Limits (1960's), you can trace entire series' of genre movies back to a SINGLE Twilight Zone episode! And let's not crack the books so we can see which movies or TV shows have murdered Asimov's, Bradbury's or Clarke's ideas. Nothing new under the sun, guys.

In my humble opinion, genre television is not just about having an original idea. It's about the acting, the cinematography, the dialog, the character interplay and development, the visual effects, etc. The Fifth Element and Stargate are VASTLY different fictional works. A similar scene does not imply theft or lack of originality. In fact, I think there's a similar Doctor Who episode that pre-dates BOTH works. I think the best example Darth Buddha mentions above was when Kirk and Crichton were duplicated. VASTLY different settings and spins, but same idea. In fact, what genre series has NOT done a "cloned protagonist" episode?

So, does Stargate deserve to be labeled a "ripoff" because it contains derivative works? I would argue ABSOLUTELY NOT as all modern scifi does the same. Unless that scene in SG1 had a Mila Jovovitch look-alike wearing an ace bandage and lipstick, it was NOT ripped off from Fifth Element. (also, compare Fifth Element to any number of similar Heavy Metal works from the 80's).

Does the SCIFI channel suck for calling the Stargate it's original series? The guy who started this tread certainly had some justifiable beef in this area. Well, it depends on what original means. If they mean that it contains NO derivative works, they NOTHING SCIFI channel EVER airs can be considered original. Period. If they mean that the show or series, taken as a whole, has not aired anywhere else, then they plainly cannot call SG1 original as it began it's life on Showtime.

Does Stargate simply suck? Well, there's far more of a debate to be had HERE. I think both Stargate and Farscape were successful because they both are able to make fun of the genre while being part of it. Both Crichton and O'Neill both drop more pop-culture scifi references than one could imagine. They are the "everyman" laughing at the technobabble spouted by their co-stars. They are us, and we get to see their world through OUR eyes. But that's just my opinion. My wife thinks the Christopher Judge hopelessly overacts, and therefore the show sucks in her opinion. and I've got no real comeback. The guy DOES overact... :D

--Akshun J

[FieryHands]

Originally posted by gliadrachan
Did the Farscape episode have the EXACT SAME THING ( an alien weapon on Earth, built in the distant past to defeat invading aliens; a weapon which only John can activate after racing across the galaxy ) ? [/B]


If you're familiar with Red Dwarf, you may have seen a certain episode where the crew is attacked by a shapeshifting critter that sucks one emotion from each of them and leaves them weakened states (one character in particular loses his anger) and they have to figure out how kill it and cure themselves and it involves blasting it with bazooka fire. This episode aired years before Farscape. So did Farscape rip them off?

Yes, its quite stupid for Scifi to call Stargate one of their originals, but they bought rights and are making new episodes, so according to them, that's enough of a reason to say its theirs.

Stargate will never be accused of absolute brilliant original writing or having terribly complex and fascinating characters (there are whole episodes where Teal'c's only lines are "Indeed" a couple times), but so what? Its not a character driven show, its aliens-are-going-to-invade-earth-so-we-better-be-prepared show. Am I disappointed they don't bother to research any culture they decide to use? Hell yes. But DK did write a darn good episode for them.

Fact is, there is not a totally, completely original idea that hasn't had something else that inspire it. Not in scifi, and not in the whole of existence.

I think I lost my point.

[Sunderflame]

Hey Dude Long time no post....Glad to see your glowing mug again......:rollin:

[Clarsax]

Farscape's ideas aren't all that original, but the ideas they use are variations of ones that practically everyone in scifi has used. They do the classic go into the past and change the future plot, the government corruption plot, invading aliens, and plenty of others that have been around for ages. Farscape and Stargate share a lot of the same basic ideas in thier storylines, but the important part is Farscape does them better.

[Ouroboros]

Here's a site with a host of sci-fi cliches. See how many of them you can spot in a given show.

http://enphilistor.users4.50megs.com/cliche.htm

Point is that people in the entertainment business always take inspiration from one another. Where the line is drawn to it becoming a blatant rip off is a tough thing to answer. Generally though if said program claiming to have been ripped off just ripped off the idea from another older program they have no cause to complain as for as I'm concerned. The only exception would be if the second show copied them so closely it's practically plagiarism.

When it came out many people felt Deep Space nine was a direct and blatant rip off of Babylon 5. The show's Creator JMS had approached Paramount earlier about getting his show made but they rejected his ideas, or so they said.

The things that bother me more than "they stole my show!" style objections are tired old reused crap like this. You can probably find them all in every sci-fi show ever made they're so common.

-time travel results in the future/present being put in jeopardy.

-aliens breeding with humans

-aliens having one note cultures, all Klingons are warriors etc, roll out the racism mobile.

-the otherwise utopian alien civilization has one extreme and horrific flaw that overrides it's utopian nature once discovered. They always try to keep the flaw hidden to, which would indicate they know it is immoral despite what they will later claim when it is actually found out.

-pacifist politics are more morally enlightened than a species willing to defend itself against obvious and intentional harm. Uber races typically bemoan the violent nature of the "lesser" races from their ivory towers of technological/situational invincibility/security.

-aliens seem to be nice at first but you know there's something not right about them. Sure enough there they are trying to eat Geordie's brain later. I'd like to see the suspicions turn out to be exactly that just once.

[JrMissToughChick]

From an Outerlimits ep they stold the butterfly effect I say!

[akshunj]

Originally posted by Ouroboros
-aliens having one note cultures, all Klingons are warriors etc, roll out the racism mobile.


This has GOT to be my pet peeve. Star Trek was NOTORIOUS for this. Even though Farscape has fallen into the trap occasionally, it is far better than most genre series'. Especially when they showed the different Scarran ethnic groups, as well as that skinny-ass Luxan scientist. That was cool...

-the otherwise utopian alien civilization has one extreme and horrific flaw that overrides it's utopian nature once discovered. They always try to keep the flaw hidden to, which would indicate they know it is immoral despite what they will later claim when it is actually found out.

SG1 did this more times than I can count. But everyone is guilty of this. I think ST:TNG did a whole season with nothing but this!

-pacifist politics are more morally enlightened than a species willing to defend itself against obvious and intentional harm. Uber races typically bemoan the violent nature of the "lesser" races from their ivory towers of technological/situational invincibility/security.

'Nuff said. Is anyone out there a fan of the 80's Twilight Zone? There was a neat ep where the Uber Aliens came down to exterminate us because we were not violent enough! I think he said something like, "Yes, You humans have a small talent for war. Much too small for our purposes." Nice way to turn that plot device on it's head...

--Akshun J

[kymom5613]

Some good plots are SO worth retelling, in order to, like Rod Serling ALWAYS did, put a little twist in it and REALLY make you think. But in most of it, I see morality plays period. And what I love about FS is that we see a lot more (IMHO) than a few mistakes made by our beloved protagonist, and the result isn't nicely cleaned up over the next 49 minutes. Things are sometimes messy (just like real life) and you won't know the ramifications of one seemingly innocuous act until 3 or 4 weeks later. There are so many Shakespearean tales out there and you can trace it even back to the Bible. Good stories are that: Good Stories.

[DarkMagess]

The "Original" in Sci-Fi original series is simply "look! it's not reruns!" As in, they're paying to make new episodes. It has nothing to do with whether they were able to create a new plot, different from all the basic plots of all the storytelling in human history.

Welcome to the world in which there is no totally original work. We like to call that culture. Shakespeare wasn't original either, that doesn't make it crap.

-Magess