Twice Shy

[Chi27]

Did it seem like John's lakka addiction was handled sort of half-assed? Aeryn confronted him on it, they have a few words and then they're back together. WHOOOSH!!! As much as he was hitting that dren, I don't think he can just stop just like that. I was delighted to see them together, but it seemed like the larger problem wasn't properly dealt with, imo.

Oh, and for you guys that like a little slash you got a little of that with Chiana and Taleeka(sp). What is about men watching two women go at it? Never mind don't answer. I think this is a PG board. LOL.

[so-much-4-sanity]

I thought something similar until I watched one of the deleted scenes:

Aeryn, after being harvested and now emotional, goes to Noranti and asks her if she'll make her something that will help her deal with her emotions, the way she "helped" John.

I remember going to bed last night wondering if her emotional experience didn't allow her an insight into the pain John was feeling at the time he began the Lakka and therfore making her more empathetic to the drug use.

Another thing, too, I wonder if Aeryn just wasn't overwhelmingly relieved to know that John did in fact still love her...I know I would be! :)

I think possibly these two things combined may be why she seemed to accept it pretty quickly.

TS is the last of the Season 4 eps I've seen, but one thing I was left feeling curious about is if John goes through withdrawals, or was he supposed to be experiencing them along with everything else he was going through in TS?

[Chi27]

Originally posted by so-much-4-sanity
I thought something similar until I watched one of the deleted scenes:

Aeryn, after being harvested and now emotional, goes to Noranti and asks her if she'll make her something that will help her deal with her emotions, the way she "helped" John.

I remember going to bed last night wondering if her emotional experience didn't allow her an insight into the pain John was feeling at the time he began the Lakka and therfore making her more empathetic to the drug use.

Another thing, too, I wonder if Aeryn just wasn't overwhelmingly relieved to know that John did in fact still love her...I know I would be! :)

I think possibly these two things combined may be why she seemed to accept it pretty quickly.

TS is the last of the Season 4 eps I've seen, but one thing I was left feeling curious about is if John goes through withdrawals, or was he supposed to be experiencing them along with everything else he was going through in TS?

If I had to choose, I'd say she's just so relieved that he still loves her and wants her back. She's probably so relieved that she's willingly going into denial that he now has a drug problem. He may have started taking that dren to forget Aeryn, but even though they're back together, I don't think he's fallen into a trap and now can't stop taking it. There's a question of has he handled what happened to him on Arnessk where he first began taking the lakka. I know I can certainly emphathize with Aeryn where John is concerned, but I sort of hope that the writers were planning to explore this further if there is a S5.

[rinnicbob]

John originally took the lakka, the REAL lakka, on Arnessk, to stop falling into Grayza's trap and telling her all she wanted to know. Noranti told him how to do it, he just needed to choose the right time.

The lakka he started hitting when back on Moya was a distillate, to help deaden the pain of his broken heart, and wounded pride, because his love won't trust him. Or so we're led to believe.

As an analog of the essence of lakka, is it addictive? Who knows. Since it's effects are transitory and superficial, probably not.

Everytime he'd take a hit, his memories were always of Aeryn, and he admits to D'Argo that it only blocks her out when he doubles the dose, although I've never been convinced he was telling the truth about that.

After all that, when she discovers this, and then confronts him, he's evasive. The reason he gives her, about Scorpius, is, for me, a plot point that doesn't work. It feels contrived.

However, with all they've been through after their separation and bittersweet reunion, it strikes me as more plausible that they were BOTH lying to each other, and themselves, and they needed each other so badly, that any reason, any excuse, would do. If for no other reason than to let all the other crap go and be together, as they should.

[Chi27]

Originally posted by rinnicbob
However, with all they've been through after their separation and bittersweet reunion, it strikes me as more plausible that they were BOTH lying to each other, and themselves, and they needed each other so badly, that any reason, any excuse, would do. If for no other reason than to let all the other crap go and be together, as they should.

You're probably right. But D'argo seemed concerned that it's addictive and Aeryn found his stash judging from her holding that little black bag. He even had it on him when they were battling the Skreeth in Terra Firma. Looks like addiction to me. But now that they're back together, they can deal with the problem together.

[so-much-4-sanity]

Originally posted by rinnicbob
As an analog of the essence of lakka, is it addictive? Who knows. Since it's effects are transitory and superficial, probably not.

Everytime he'd take a hit, his memories were always of Aeryn, and he admits to D'Argo that it only blocks her out when he doubles the dose, although I've never been convinced he was telling the truth about that.

After all that, when she discovers this, and then confronts him, he's evasive. The reason he gives her, about Scorpius, is, for me, a plot point that doesn't work. It feels contrived.



A hallmark of addiction is when you have to take more then recommended to achieve the same result as a single dose, I think the fact that John has doubled the dose and that it increases in frequency is a sign of it being addiction.

I believe what John says about his reasoning, simply because I want to believe it; however, he began taking the distallet after his experiences in JQ and how his fear for what Scorpius could do/did to Aeryn played into his confusion. In addition to that his focus is on Aeryn first and everything else second. From what I've heard, though I actually haven't seen the ep, spoilers...




















...doesn't John in fact give up wormhole knowledge to Scorpy in exchange for his help in saving Aeryn?

[somniac]

This subject has been discussed many times at length.
Here is a link to one interesting discussion on UK board Tormented Space.
Have a look.
http://torturedspace.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=generalfs&action=display&num=1054716494

[Dangermousie]

I never thought that Crichton was addicted to the drug. (At least physically. He might have a psychological dependency on it). There really isn't any evidence: withdrawal symptoms, etc. Double the doze? Either addict behavior, or his love for Aeryin is so strong that he has to double the doze to be able to shut her out. The shipper in me prefers the latter. Ditto for having it always with him.

As to why he took the drugs? I do think that he is largely telling the truth about his need to protect her from Scorpy. He only started after Scorpy was aboard. It can't be just for the pain, because this is the guy who chose to keep his memories of her in DMD, even though that involved knowing he killed her. However, his "protection" rationale isn't the whole truth. I am sure the fact that to take lakka would deaden the emotional pain and hurt played a role in his decision.

The reason he finally breaks is because:
a. he's been missing a few doses, probably, what with the pursuit of Spider-Girl
b. The drugs don't work all the time, so well, anyway: Aeryn is breaking through his emotional bariers (the Xmas scene in Kansas). Can only keep up natural emotions drugged and dammed for so long.
c. He knows, I think, that if he doesn't tell her then, he will probably lose her. And that is a chance he is not willing to take, Scorpy or not. In a way, it's Aeryn being so chasing-after-him, that allowed him to be in a cocoon of security. Thart way he knew, lakka or not, she is not going anywhere. Just watch him react when she snaps at him in TS. It's not just their moment in Kansas that gets him more attentive to her. In a way, it's a familiar dynamic for him.

Combine a+b+c and you get his break down.

As to why Aeryn doesn't mind? She loves him. She's been trying to get him back very hard. The reason he rejected her is "romantic." And I think she also feels guilty to him a bit.

I do like TS. One of my fave S4 eps, actually.

[so-much-4-sanity]

Originally posted by Dangermousie
I never thought that Crichton was addicted to the drug. (At least physically. He might have a psychological dependency on it). There really isn't any evidence: withdrawal symptoms, etc.


I guess a question I have (and this goes to the original question of how the writers handled the lakka - half-assed that is) how much of what John was going through after harvesting was the effect of Taleeka and how much of it was withdrawal.

The reason I ask, is his physical reaction seems to be more pronounced, where the others were more psychologically affected, all be it, fatigued.

[Dangermousie]

I haven't noticed the difference in his physical reaction. Must recheck (ahhh...the chore, the chore). The crew in Lo'La did seem to be very tired (and they told Crichton that it all depended on him because they were running out of time/strength whatever). I don't think we saw anyone else in such extreme stages of "infection." The last we saw of others was on Lo'La some time back.

I guess I must be the world most naive watcher (or else a Noranti in the making) but I never thought of lakka as a drug in a sense heroin is a drug. Just a phsycological version of aspirin. You have headache, you take it, it gets better. If you keep on having headaches, you keep on taking it. If the headache is really strong, you double the doze. Once the headache is gone, you don't take it anymore. Subtitute "feelings" for "headache" and that's what I thought. I have an issue with taking stuff to deal with emotional problems, but that's another story.

But yes, the writers left lakka open to either interpretation. I.e. when D'Argo confronts John about it. He can be angry/upset, because lakka is a big-deal-drug, or he can be angry because it's messing with Crichton's emotions, and is indicative of John's mental state. I always thought the latter, but I can see how it can be interpreted the other way.

I still don't think it's addictive (not majorly so anyway). Once John stops taking it in Twice Shy, we are not shown any withdrawal symptoms. I'd imagine if it was supposed to be addictive, they would have been clearer about showing withdrawal, dependency etc. They didn't. Though who knows, if we had S5, we might have had Crichton the recovering addict. By now they've tortured him in every other way, after all :)

[Chi27]

Originally posted by Dangermousie
I haven't noticed the difference in his physical reaction. Must recheck (ahhh...the chore, the chore). The crew in Lo'La did seem to be very tired (and they told Crichton that it all depended on him because they were running out of time/strength whatever). I don't think we saw anyone else in such extreme stages of "infection." The last we saw of others was on Lo'La some time back.

I never thought about his physical reaction to Taleeka's energy drain as being withdrawal until someone mentioned it. Perhaps when Taleeka took his energy, the lakka effects went with it as well.

I guess I must be the world most naive watcher (or else a Noranti in the making) but I never thought of lakka as a drug in a sense heroin is a drug. Just a phsycological version of aspirin. You have headache, you take it, it gets better. If you keep on having headaches, you keep on taking it. If the headache is really strong, you double the doze. Once the headache is gone, you don't take it anymore. Subtitute "feelings" for "headache" and that's what I thought. I have an issue with taking stuff to deal with emotional problems, but that's another story.

Doubling the dose is a sign of dependency, imo, and he needed more to get the desired effect. I look at what Noranti gave him as something similar to the UT's version of cocoa leaf or the poppy plant -- both of which we know cocaine and heroin are derived. Take any one of those and they will make you forget or take the "edge" off your emotions.


I still don't think it's addictive (not majorly so anyway). Once John stops taking it in Twice Shy, we are not shown any withdrawal symptoms. I'd imagine if it was supposed to be addictive, they would have been clearer about showing withdrawal, dependency etc. They didn't. Though who knows, if we had S5, we might have had Crichton the recovering addict. By now they've tortured him in every other way, after all :) [/b]

No, we haven't seen any signs of withdrawal post- Twice Shy. I hope for his and Aeryn's sake that he isn't addicted. But you know how it is -- nobody starts out wanting to be hooked and you think you can walk away only to find out otherwise. That's why the lakka thing seemed very sloppily handled. It's definitely something that I wouldn't be surprised to see rear its ugly head in S5 (if we're so lucky as to get one). The whole feel of the scene between D'argo and John in TF when he sees the lakka bulb in his hand smacked of concern for the potential for addictiveness of lakka and the same was true when Aeryn confronted him about it. She seemed both hurt that he was using it to distance himself from her, but also because of the potentiality of him becoming dependent on it.

[so-much-4-sanity]

The aspects of John's behavior that caused me to think that he perhaps may be suffering withdrawal was the two scene's post-harvest with Aeryn. He mentioned having chills, and I thought that unique to him, and also, he collapsed before the rest they were at least able to get onto Lo-la. However, I do pay less credence to the ladder incident than the former because that can also be attributed to the psychological affect of the harvesting.

The thought of the symptoms of the Lakka being removed when Taleeka harvested him is interesting. It would be an explaination for why John finally opened up to Aeryn. (I think the stress of being on Earth in Terra Firma also affected that tranistion). Also, it would explain why he seems free of the drug in later eps.

I'm still convinced there are elements of addiction with the Lakka and I do see John's behavior as drug dependence; perhaps it was simply caught before it could become a serious addiction. Something that keeps coming back to me is both Aeryn and D'Argo commented on John's lack of perspective.

[Hammerhead]

I have never felt that John was addicted to lakka. Addiction goes far beyond just having to take a double dose just to get the desired effect. Dangermousie's analogy of aspirin is an excelent point. He only takes a hit in order to "forget" Aeryn at that moment in time. He's not constantly taking a hit in order to keep her permanently out of his mind nor is he taking constant hits in order to fulfill a need beyond forgetting Aeryn. Multiple symptoms should be present before an addiction label can be placed ... and I just don't see them.

As for D'Argo ... I don't think he was concerned about addiction, I think he was concerned about John covering up his true feelings. That in itself is not always emotionally healthy.

To me the question is lakka addictive in the first place? If so was John on the brink? Having to take a double-dose may be an indication that he was beginning to fall. Unless an episode is dedicated to it we may never really know.

Just my humble opinion.:)

[JrMissToughChick]

I got to drag up the thread on the lakka for you guys don't I?

[so-much-4-sanity]

Probably...:D

[JrMissToughChick]

http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18501&highlight=Lakka

http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18521&highlight=Lakka

these are two good ones there is more though

[Chi27]

That lakka thread was a goodie. Lots of things to consider. But one thing that sticks with me is that perhaps TS wasn't meant to be the end of it. It's not like threads such as that on the show haven't been known to resurface at a later time. Perhaps, had the show gone into S5, it would've been put to rest properly.

I do think that Ben Browder played those scenes a little too convincingly that John had a growing addiction to the lakka which is why I have a hard time believing that John kicked the habit cold turkey in one shot. I think that he definitely started off taking the drug to take "the edge off" because of all the emotional pain surrounding Aeryn and perhaps he was telling the truth about distancing himself from her to protect her and the baby from Scorpy. But I have an even harder time swallowing that one. Like others have said Scorpy ain't stupid and he knows that Aeryn is John's Achilles. Hmm...me thinks he got a clue in DMD/SOD. I think the reasons and intentions that John started out using the lakka may have backfired whereby he may have thought he would never get hooked, but yet has found that he can't stop taking the drug.

Another thing, people have said that John has kicked the habit. Has that really been shown to be true? Just because you haven't seen him using, doesn't mean he isn't.

[Dangermousie]

I assume that he is not taking it anymore. After all, he is all cuddly with Aeryn, which lakka would prevent.

[so-much-4-sanity]

Originally posted by Chi27
I do think that Ben Browder played those scenes a little too convincingly that John had a growing addiction to the lakka which is why I have a hard time believing that John kicked the habit cold turkey in one shot. I think that he definitely started off taking the drug to take "the edge off" because of all the emotional pain surrounding Aeryn and perhaps he was telling the truth about distancing himself from her to protect her and the baby from Scorpy. But I have an even harder time swallowing that one. Like others have said Scorpy ain't stupid and he knows that Aeryn is John's Achilles. Hmm...me thinks he got a clue in DMD/SOD. I think the reasons and intentions that John started out using the lakka may have backfired whereby he may have thought he would never get hooked, but yet has found that he can't stop taking the drug.


BB said that taking the lakka was one of three reprehensible things John did in Season 4, which I think indicates he was playing it on a level more serious then not.

Maybe I'm wrong here, probably am, but I don't see John trying to convince Scorpius that he wasn't in love with Aeryn but more so that their relationship is over. Wither or not Scorpius would buy that or not is another story but he is obviously using the comms to spy on Moya's crew, so John's insight into Scorpy isn't entirely suspect.

If we can use Harvey as a gauge to Scorpius it's clear that Harvey doesn't understand love in the same way John does, as pointed out in RA. It's possible that Scorpius too doesn't regard love as all encompassing as John does and wouldn't consider it as a potential key...maybe...Scorpy's nothing if not observant.

Freud pointed out positive consequences of psychosis and perhaps one of the positive outcomes of John's use of lakka, freeing him of the pain mistrust caused them, was that it freed his mind to consentrate on real priorities over emotional priorities. In ISTIA Aeryn clairifies John's priorities and he agrees, followed by taking a hit of lakka.

It is for this reason Noranti gave John the lakka, "A warrier must have clairty". However, John perked up when Noranti mentioned dulling of pain (if my memory serves me correctly, this is when he took it from her). While her intentions may have been pure (as when she tried to kill him in WWL), I think John's were pharmasutical - look at how much the boy drank when Aeryn was on Talan!?!

[Chi27]

Originally posted by so-much-4-sanity
BB said that taking the lakka was one of three reprehensible things John did in Season 4, which I think indicates he was playing it on a level more serious then not.

That was exactly the perception I got when I saw John hitting the lakka.


It is for this reason Noranti gave John the lakka, "A warrier must have clairty". However, John perked up when Noranti mentioned dulling of pain (if my memory serves me correctly, this is when he took it from her). While her intentions may have been pure (as when she tried to kill him in WWL), I think John's were pharmasutical - look at how much the boy drank when Aeryn was on Talan!?!

I've heard people say they started out using drugs such as coke because of rush and that everything becomes clear or some other such dren. I look at the lakka in the same light. John took it to have clarity and to take the edge off his memories of Aeryn. Just like any drug (including all that dren the pharmaceutical companies advertise on TV), John didn't read the fine print 'cos Granny sure didn't tell him the side effects nor that it was addictive. The problem that most people face is that so clarity they think they have gives way to something else like paranoia and psychosis. Even Aeryn knows it when she accuses him of being paranoid until she realizes Scorpy is using the comms to spy on them. I'm glad Ben portrayed John's lakka use as more than so-called recreational use. Unlike his trip to the pleasure planet in SnS where he got pretty damn drunk, he seems to need lakka more than he needs alcohol.

[Chi27]

Originally posted by so-much-4-sanity
BB said that taking the lakka was one of three reprehensible things John did in Season 4, which I think indicates he was playing it on a level more serious then not.

That was exactly the perception I got when I saw John hitting the lakka.


It is for this reason Noranti gave John the lakka, "A warrier must have clairty". However, John perked up when Noranti mentioned dulling of pain (if my memory serves me correctly, this is when he took it from her). While her intentions may have been pure (as when she tried to kill him in WWL), I think John's were pharmasutical - look at how much the boy drank when Aeryn was on Talan!?!

I've heard people say they started out using drugs such as coke because of the rush and that everything becomes clear or some other such dren. I look at the lakka in the same light. John took it to have clarity and to take the edge off his memories of Aeryn. Just like any drug (including all that dren the pharmaceutical companies advertise on TV), John didn't read the fine print 'cos Granny sure didn't tell him the side effects nor that it was addictive. The problem that most people face is that so-called clarity they think they have gives way to something else like paranoia and psychosis. Even Aeryn knows it when she accuses him of being paranoid until she realizes Scorpy is using the comms to spy on them. I'm glad Ben portrayed John's lakka use as more than so-called recreational use. Unlike his trip to the pleasure planet in SnS where he got pretty damn drunk, he seems to need lakka more than he needs alcohol.