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stellar
05-07-2004, 05:04 AM
CDs, DVDs not so immortal

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/index.html

Thursday, May 6, 2004 Posted: 2:04 PM EDT (1804 GMT)

(AP) -- Dan Koster was unpacking some of his more than 2,000 CDs after a move when he noticed something strange. Some of the discs, which he always took good care of, wouldn't play properly.

Koster, a Web and graphic designer for Queens University of Charlotte, North Carolina, took one that was skipping pretty badly and held it up to the light.

"I was kind of shocked to see a constellation of pinpricks, little points where the light was coming through the aluminum layer," he says.

His collection was suffering from "CD rot," a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer. It's not known for sure how common the blight is, but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs, including DVDs, may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.

"We were all told that CDs were well-nigh indestructible when they were introduced in the mid '80s," Koster says. "Companies used that in part to justify the higher price of CDs as well."

He went through his collection and found that 15 percent to 20 percent of the discs, most of which were produced in the '80s, were "rotted" to some extent.

The rotting can be due to poor manufacturing, according to Jerry Hartke, who runs Media Sciences Inc., a Marlborough, Massachusetts, laboratory that tests CDs.

The aluminum layer that reflects the light of the player's laser is separated from the CD label by a thin layer of lacquer. If the manufacturer applied the lacquer improperly, air can penetrate to oxidize the aluminum, eating it up much like iron rusts in air.

But in Hartke's view, it's more common that discs are rendered unreadable by poor handling by the owner.

"If people treat these discs rather harshly, or stack them, or allow them to rub against each other, this very fragile protective layer can be disturbed, allowing the atmosphere to interact with that aluminum," he says.

Part of the problem is that most people believe that it's the clear underside of the CD that is fragile, when in fact it's the side with the label. Scratches on the underside have to be fairly deep to cause skipping, while scratches on the top can easily penetrate to the aluminum layer. Even the pressure of a pen on the label side can dent the aluminum, rendering the CD unreadable.

Koster has taken to copying his CDs on his computer to extend the life of the recordings. Unfortunately, it's not easy to figure out how long those recordable CDs will work.

Fred Byers, an information technology specialist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, has looked at writeable CDs on behalf of government agencies, including the Library of Congress, that need to know how long their discs will last.

Manufacturers cite lifespans up to 100 years, but without a standardized test, it's very hard to evaluate their claims, Byers says. The worst part is that manufacturers frequently change the materials and manufacturing methods without notifying users.

"When you go to a store and buy a DVD-R, and this goes for CD-R as well, you really don't know what you're getting," he says. "If you buy a particular brand of disc, and then get the same disc and brand six months later, it can be very different."

This renders the frequently heard advice to buy name-brand discs for maximum longevity fairly moot, he says.

DVDs are a bit tougher than CDs in the sense that the data layer (or layers -- some discs have two) is sandwiched in the middle of the disc between two layers of plastic. But this structure causes problems of its own, especially in early DVDs. The glue that holds the layers together can lose its grip, making the disc unreadable at least in parts.

Users that bend a DVD to remove it from a hard-gripping case are practically begging for this problem, because flexing the disc puts strain on the glue.

Rewriteable CDs and DVDs, as opposed to write-once discs, should not be used for long-term storage because they contain a heat-sensitive layer that decays much faster than the metal layers of other discs.

For maximum longevity, discs should be stored vertically and only be handled by the edges. Don't stick labels on them, and in the case of write-once CDs, don't write on them with anything but soft water-based or alcohol-based markers.

Also, like wine, discs should be stored in a cool, dry place. Koster's friend Mark Irons, of Corvallis, Ore., stored his CD collection in a cabin heated by a wood-burning stove. The temperature would range between 40 degrees and 70 degrees in the space of a few hours. Now, the data layer of some of his CDs looks as if it's being eaten from the outside.

Irons is still pretty happy with CD technology, since it beats vinyl LPs and tape for longevity. Now that he's moved his discs to an apartment with a more stable temperature, he's noticed that the decay has slowed.

"I'm hoping they'll hold out till that next medium gets popular, and everyone gets to buy everything over again," he says.


FACT BOX
"CD rot" Dos:
1. Handle discs by the outer edge or the center hole.
2.Use a felt-tip permanent marker to mark the label side of a CD.
3. Keep discs clean. Wipe with cotton fabric in a straight line from the center of the disc toward the outer edge.
4. Return discs to their plastic cases immediately after use.
5. Store discs upright (book style) in their cases.
6. Store discs in a cool, dry, dark place with clean air.
7. Open a recordable disc package only when you are ready to record.
8. Check the disc surface before recording.


I've got most of my collection backed up to my MP3 player, so I can always re-generate CDs in the case of material failure. I've noticed corrosion in a few of my older CDs, but that corrosion has not yielded a total failure to play (some skipping aside). I'm more worried about my DVDs, all of which I keep in CD albums for convienance. I've gotta get a DVDR drive and back these things up, then put the backups in a refrigerated silo at NORAD or something.

My records still work, but they haven't been seeing much action since 1986.

Third EYe
05-07-2004, 06:02 AM
I remember hearing that CDs were indistructible, and I never believed it. They are still better than cassettes and records.

I watch people handle thier discs very poorly and I ask them what they think they are doing. They give me a strange look. Then they want to borrow mine. Yeah right.


These are the people that are proud that they have had this one CD for 3 years without having to replace it. They actually have conversations in which they are competing to see who had to replace which disc the most times.

real heros.

zap
05-07-2004, 06:16 AM
I remember when cd's first came out, and MTV was new, that one vj.....what was her name....Martha? The brunette? Anyway, she was going on and on about how fantastic this new thing the "CD" was, and how it was indestructable. She took a CD, threw it on the floor and stomped on it, then picked it up and played it, no problem. I was 17 at the time and I thought that was fantastic! I bugged my parents to buy me a cd player for my birthday, and my very first cd was Pink Floyd "Wish you were here" I was so happy to have this new "indestructable" tech, that I had to show it to everyone, and I pretty much did the same thing Martha did, I threw that cd on the ground and stomped it.......repeatedly......for years. I still have that poor cd, and guess what. It has ONE skip, at the very end. Now I have hundreds of cds, and maybe a dozen dvds. The first dvd I got was Charlies Angels. I got to watch it once all the way thru, now it only plays 3/4 of the movie and stops. I have no idea why that is, and it bums me out because that is one of my favorite movies for when Im feeling down.

stellar
05-07-2004, 06:28 AM
How many times have you stepped on your Charlie's Angels DVD?

If there are no obvious radial scratches in the DVD, I'd take a look at your DVD player.

The first DVD player I had was a $400+ Sony, single disc player. It was awesome, 5.1 channel output, DTS, multiple video, and a complete and total piece of dren after 2-years (when the warranty ran out). After some research on the net I found out that after two years, every single one of these things went out because Sony had put an inferior fuse in the machine and after x-number of cycles it went out and fried the system. It was then I realized that Sony had sold out to the American way of engineering things (to fail after the warranty fo people have to buy another one). I don't buy Sonys automatically anymore... I do my research because Sony isn't the safe brand it was when I was growning up. I replaced it with a Panasonic 5-disc player at 1/3 the cost. No 5.1 channel output though... that's the only suck part of it. The player's nice and chugging along fine; and I don't have to change discs during Farscape marathons.

zap
05-07-2004, 06:35 AM
How many times have you stepped on your Charlie's Angels DVD?

If there are no obvious radial scratches in the DVD, I'd take a look at your DVD player.......<SNIP>.....

LOL! Ive NEVER stomped on my precious Angels! No way Stella! My cheap ass dvd player had no problems with any my other dvds....so I think I need to try the CA dvd on another player and see if the same thing happens.

grinner
05-07-2004, 07:18 AM
I have taken to copying my CD's onto MiniDiscs... those are self contained... but I don't know how long they would last either.

chani
05-07-2004, 08:17 AM
and donīt think you can rerecord on a rewriteable forever, after 20 hours of "24" its gone ;)

PS: ähem, grinner, I donīt know how to put this, but your avatar, uhm, is disgusting :eek:

NYPinTA
05-07-2004, 09:41 AM
PS: ähem, grinner, I donīt know how to put this, but your avatar, uhm, is disgusting :eek:

:lol umm... yeah. It is. :lol


I just got a minidisk player so I could do that same thing, but I am doing it more to just pull the few songs I like from the CD and then get rid of the CD. Too many only have one or two good songs. :pissed: And they are taking up space!

grinner
05-07-2004, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by chani

PS: ähem, grinner, I donīt know how to put this, but your avatar, uhm, is disgusting
:lol umm... yeah. It is. :lohey... at least it's grinning... or sorts. :D
l


I just got a minidisk player so I could do that same thing, but I am doing it more to just pull the few songs I like from the CD and then get rid of the CD. Too many only have one or two good songs. :pissed: And they are taking up space!
That is what I am doing. I got 100 free disks from... an aquaintence and am slowly copying my CD's and two of my brothers CD's that I want but don't want to buy. I think I filled about 20 of them so far... and you can fit over 6 hours of music on each disk... so you use less.

Under A Dying Sun
05-07-2004, 10:52 AM
grinner, you better never change that avatar.

Paul Cousins
05-07-2004, 11:31 AM
Reason 472 as to why Music CDs should not cost $14.00 dollars a pop.

MPAA and RIAA push bills into law that made it illegal to copy DVDs, but they are facing a law by doing so on the when this is comes out fully comes out. And this further strengthens the Fair Use argue against DMCA.

trubador
05-07-2004, 11:33 AM
The standard CD recording surface is aluminum, but the CD-R and CD-RW disks use a chemical substrate, which will deteriorate much quicker than the standard CDs.

NYPinTA
05-07-2004, 11:46 AM
That is what I am doing. I got 100 free disks from... an aquaintence and am slowly copying my CD's and two of my brothers CD's that I want but don't want to buy. I think I filled about 20 of them so far... and you can fit over 6 hours of music on each disk... so you use less.

Plus, they are cute. But I bet that didn't factor in your decision. ;)

grinner
05-07-2004, 12:16 PM
Plus, they are cute. But I bet that didn't factor in your decision. ;)
not really... just the fact that they are smaller made that decision for me.

Under A Dying Sun
05-07-2004, 04:08 PM
hey!

grinner
05-07-2004, 04:10 PM
hey!
go read the rush thread... some people think that I am being obscene with some of my avatars.

stellar
05-07-2004, 04:13 PM
grinner, you better never change that avatar.

Ah... reverse psychology.

marandken
05-07-2004, 06:51 PM
I'm sticking with the vinyl.