How big are the UTs?

[Jeff O'Connor]

It's a question I haven't heard anyone ask before, but I might just be blind... anyway, just wondering what some of you think. They're obviously pretty big, and they're in-between Peacekeeper and Scarran Space, but how big is big, and who thinks there's a lot more to them that the Moyans didn't see? Personally I think they're probably even larger than Scarran Space, based on the fact that if they were smaller the Scarrans would've probably gobbled them all down by now.

[Martincore]

nobody knows for sure because: they're uncharted! ;) seriously, if you haven't made a map of something, you can't be sure how big it is... you can guess and calculate your way to something that's a likely size, but you can't be sure. I don't think the Moyans saw half of the UTs though, but I can't be sure... ;)

[buckwheet the 16th]

and whats the deal with the Tormented Space is that Scarren country, another part of the UT's or just some area people don't travel (unless being hunted)?

[grinner]

big

[grinner]

huge

[grinner]

ginormous

[grinner]

way to frelling big to walk across

[Martincore]

...oh that's how you get so many posts Grinner... you write one word in each... clever! ;)

[Martincore]

and whats the deal with the Tormented Space is that Scarren country, another part of the UT's or just some area people don't travel (unless being hunted)?

The latter, I'd say...

[Adam L Garcia]

The FEP is trying to figure that out as we speak.

[Jeff O'Connor]

The FEP is trying to figure that out as we speak.

I should've figured as much. :aok:

[grinner]

...oh that's how you get so many posts Grinner... you write one word in each... clever! ;)
:shrug:

just remember... K.I.S.S.

[grinner]

bigger than a breadbox...

[Jeff O'Connor]

Bigger than a gravy boat.

[Mike@Pilots Chamber]

Don't forget that it was possible for the crew to travel around quite quickly, if you remember Liars, Guns & Money - With Friends Like These. They went round recruiting people from early in the show damn fast.

But either way, I'd say that the UTs are bigger than a matchstick.

[Adam L Garcia]

Don't forget that it was possible for the crew to travel around quite quickly, if you remember Liars, Guns & Money - With Friends Like These. They went round recruiting people from early in the show damn fast.

But either way, I'd say that the UTs are bigger than a matchstick.

But we also have to take into account how fast the ships can go? They clearly can go faster than a Earth spaceship. Its a combination of velocity, distant and 3-dimensional space... Which frankly gives me a headache.

Adam

[Darth Buddha]

Undiscovered and unmapped territory seems much bigger than mapped territory.

If you've got to explore by meandering around to find anything, it is going to take a lot more time than going someplace you've been via direct route.

[SueDonym]

Yes. I'd have to say that the reason they were able to recruit so fast for "Liars Guns and Money" is that they KNEW where they were going for once. Just meandering around checking out every planet nearby worked far less well and less quickly for "Jeremiah Crichton". Once Moya knew where a place was, couldn't she just starburst there? It was trying to find out where they were that was taking so long.

Based on what the Moyans went through trying to find maps to their homeworld I'd say the UT is pretty darn big, but that the reason it's not been overrun by the PK or the Scarrans is that it's considered less important -- not important enough to bother mapping fully -- more like a very large frontier area, fret with lawlessness.

[Adam L Garcia]

Starburst, I believe is random, there is no way of knowing exactly where they'll end up... Though I may be wrong.

[Martincore]

Starburst random? hmm... I'm gonna need some *SPOILER SPACE* for this one so:
*SPOILER SPACE* :




*



*




*




*




*

Well... when Moya is racing the Scarrans to the wormhole, they seem to arrive at quite an accurate point... but yes, before I saw that, I too thought starburst was random...

[grinner]

I figured that they, the Moyans, were just randomly starburst previously... in order to make it harder for the PK's to catch them. But that starburst could be used very accurately. To use an example from Doctor Who, when the Doctor, after finding all the pieces of the Key To Time, refused to give it to either the Black or White Guardian. In doing this... he made them both made at him and so he created a randomizer which made it so that whenever he traveled in the TARDIS, he had absolutely know idea when or where he would arrive... so that those beings who where chasing him... wouldn't have any idea either.

[Martincore]

... and I have no idea what you just wrote.... ;)

But I suppose you cold be right, I just don't remember them talking about any of that sort...

[Selena]

It seems to me that Starburst can be either random or directed. I think it depends on Pilot's concentration and Moya's as well. We have seen Moya find her way to certain coordinates before. In LATP e.g. Moya finds her way back to the Sebacean colony after starbursting away when they were trying to throw Scorpius off John's scent. I don't think they just wandered aimlessly around the galaxy until they accidentally found John, Aeryn, D'Argo, Chiana and Rygel again - I believe they starburst with accuaracy and purpose.
Random starburst is good if you don't really care where you end up.

But that in itself raises some interesting questions. If Moya just starburst at randon, she would run the risk of ending up somewhere she did not want to be, like right in the middle of Peacekeeper territory or near a gammack base or command carrier for example ... so it leads me to believe that Moya really does not starburst at random and all starbursts are directed with purpose.

[Martincore]

hm... my head's starting to hurt, I'll get back to you tomorrow... this is quite interesting!

[Jeff O'Connor]

My theory is alongside the general idea that there's "random" and "directed" starburst types. Nevertheless I think the "random" ones can be explained away by Selena's valid point by saying that maybe you can only go so far, or whatnot... okay, this doesn't really explain it away at all and that's part of what makes your point so valid, Selena. I mean, all I can say is that I doubt once they got far enough into the UTs a random-class starburst could shoot them all the way back into Peacekeeper Space, maybe? I don't think so... I think it'd probably be too far. Also maybe Moya and Pilot can detect things close enough and that's why they'd never bump into a Command Cruiser charting the uncharteds out've nowhere.

[Martincore]

nah, not likely Jeff, think about "Durka Returns".... of course, a Command Carrier is a bit bigger, but still...

[Jeff O'Connor]

Frell, that's true... they never see anything coming for the most part, do they.

[Martincore]

nope... they normally fly directly into the middle of trouble... ;)

[SueDonym]

I love the Tardis, but I think Moya's starbursts are directed.

Remember, the whole reason that they couldn't find their way to begin with...


SPOILERS FOR THE FIRST EP



*
*
*
*
*
**
is that D'Argo ruined the navigation system when ripping through her innards trying to free Moya of the collar so that she could starburst in the first place. So they starburst, but they didn't know where they were and if you recall Pilot and Moya were quite reticent and embarrassed about it. As they went along, they 'learned' where they'd been and could find there way back there, but they didn't know where they were at first nor how they ended up there.

It was only the first jump, if I'm remembering correctly, that was random...
NOPE. Wait a tic, Moya DID randomly lurch along when she was pregnant didn't she? But in this case too I think she was able to know where she was going, or at least find her way back to where she'd been. It was just the first ep jump that was completely random.





**
*
*
*
*
*
*
End Spoilers.
...but REALLY! If you haven't seen the first ep yet...!!! ;)

[Mike@Pilots Chamber]

I think Pilot said once that starburst totally voided all of Moya's navigation memories. I presume this is because they do tend to be random.

However, I DO believe they can be aimed, depending on the angle and power. I don't think Moya could do a starburst with a tiny amount of power and end up several universes away. We know power comes into play as, in the Look At The Princess trilogy, Moya does a short, low-level starburst. And in Bad Timing, she concentrates her power into one large starburst.

Angle would be harder to judge, and it is still a bit of a touchy issue. We do know that Moya starbursted backwards in The Locket, which could hint at it.

As such, starbursts COULD be directed, but you wouldn't know exactly where. Pilots (bear in mind Pilots are incredibly intelligent creatures) would have to estimate, given their current data, and apply the right force and angle.

It is akin to shooting a gun. You can shoot randomly, and someone unskilled would do this. However, someone trained to shoot a gun would aim. Chances are though they wouldn't be able to say precisely, down to the millimetre, where the bullet would end up though on the target, unless they were amazingly skilled and lucky.

As such, Leviathans and Pilots can't say precisely where they are going to end up. They just have to apply the right force and angle and hope for the best, learning from experience. They can give rough estimates, like within a few hundred miles of a particular planet. In my opinion, Pilot lucked out in Bad Timing, though Moya would have been reasonably close anyway.

Just my little theory.

[DamonAO]

I believe that Pilots statement in the past is that starburst voids all previous navigational references. This is true of every starburst that I am aware of until "Bad Timing". In "Bad Timing" Pilot explains that he has discussed with and would like to try an extended starburst technique (makes everybody sick..). Some would call that inconsistency for convenience sake, I like to give the writers a lot of license on stuff like this. It's only when something like what happens in "Look at the Princess" occurs where the statues are completely aware of everything that is going on around them but nobody thinks to ask the princess who chopped off Crichton's head that I cringe. Yeah, so they changed the laws of the universe, but it's their universe.

[Selena]

nope... they normally fly directly into the middle of trouble... ;)
That is a valid point. However, if they always flew into just safe havens, we would have all nodded off and never got past the first season.
Of course they always starburst into trouble ... safe is just too boring. :D