Notice and Warning

[shamecube]

The reasons I love Farscape are the reasons I love this board. Even the OTs. Both are unpredictable, exciting, infuriating, fun, informative and really great places to hang out. And I was sad both had to go. Well, I was more sad over Farscape going. But, Farscape is back. Hmmmm.

[LiLOrion]

OK I honestly don't get it ( I know some people will hate me for this) please tell me whats so special about the forum that you can't handle 2 days without it. Do you feel tingly. Does it make you levitate? what?


Okay, it honestly seems like you're baiting us now.



As someone who kinda knows Bandana Girl in the online sense, I dont think she meant to come off like she was baiting. She was asking a question. If anything she was probably trying to be sarcastic, but because she doesnt do it often, it was taken as a "bait" instead.


The best way to explain losing the OTs for a couple of days would be to just, well, substitute "losing the OTs for a couple of days" for some other online place that you visit often during the day...or something that you do, or someplace that you go so often that you couldnt imagine not being able to do or go there.
Now pretend you wouldnt be able to do that something or go to that place for a day or two.
Now go stuff your face full of chocolate (or some other addictive food) to fill the void. :lol

[AgentSun]

::sob::

[stellar]

What he said ^. Only I don't follow Rally. And I only made it through two Doctor Whos (Tom Baker and the guy who came after Tom Baker).

I don't think it could be put more perfectly than that.

[stellar]

Link: http://www.tolkienonline.com

They made a book out of that movie?

Profiteers.

[Lord Loser]

I was going to type something here on topic, but it's not worth it...

[scrape_medic]

I was going to type something here on topic, but it's not worth it...
So why don't you post something OT, everyone else has...

[Lord Loser]

still not worth it.

[trubador]

Now that I've finally read through this entore thread... :sweaty: There ain't much I could add to what has already been stated. And I've already made my opinions known in past threads on this whole topic. I can handle being without OT for a few days. I won't miss those specific threads that are obviously created to bait, badger (badger???), and bludgeon. For any hot-button topics, I go to a certain set of sites throughout the blogosphere to stay informed and up-to-date in issues. If one wants to include someone in discussions on certain topics, there's always PM or e-mail with a link to the website, forum or blog in question, and any discussions can continue there.

Basically... it's your forum, Red. You're the Boss. You & the Crew do whatever you have to to make FMD the best that it can be. (That rhyme was not intented, honest.)

I'm just happy to be here! :D

[eta_carinae]

It took me soooooooo long to read this. It was an on again/ off again type of thing. Anyway, I'm going to miss the forum while it's down, but it may end up being a good thing for me. Without this to distract me, maybe I can actually get my paper finished before it is due next Monday! I will definetly be checking in on the planning page in the meantime, just to keep up with the current projects (as I do anyway). I'm not worried though. I'm sure everything will turn out all right!

[bubblez]

I'm still a relative newbie, and probably a PITA more than most...

but... to the mods...

[faustus]

do what you must

[waltersgirl]

Originally Posted by grinner
I have received a couple PM's today, since this announcement, from people hoping that I will have to go away now. That I won't be allowed to post news stories...

chiming in with the that's fucked up reaction.


let me make something completely clear, because it seems not to be.

we don't want anyone to leave. not anyone.

and that's me writing that, someone that's clashed with folks that this is all about. i want no one to leave the board. not of their own volition, and especially not because someone was banned.

everyone that came here did so because they were Scapers seeking a community of other Scapers. that matters a great deal to us. we can't communicate that clearly enough, partially because there are no ways to really put that into words and partly because the naysayers refuse to believe us anyway. whatever, moving on. the point is, we want the community that has developed here to stay, but more importantly, we want it to be healthy and welcoming.

[AgentSun]

aw, i love you guys! :cry2:

[Owlman]

We're bastards!

That's cool! :cool:

[waltersgirl]

aw, i love you guys! :cry2:

we love you guys too. seriously. you think we'd put up with all this draHma for two frelling years if we didn't?

okay, we're insane, but, that doesn't mean that the sentiment isn't genuine.
/daniel ocean

[Mike0812]

wg :hug: and :beer: which leads to :drinkin: and all sorts of zany fun! :D

[faustus]

you can never have to much Zanyness

[waltersgirl]

wg :hug: and :beer: which leads to :drinkin: and all sorts of zany fun! :D


mmmmmmmmm, beer.

speaking of which, i'm going to go outside and consume one now. try not to kill each other while i'm gone, 'k? ;)

[StarsGoBlue]

mmmmmmmmm, beer.

speaking of which, i'm going to go outside and consume one now. try not to kill each other while i'm gone, 'k? ;)


aw, mommmmmmmmm... :rolleyes:


*puts semtex back in super-sekrit hidey-hole...for now* :devil:

[Owlman]

Damn it! Now I'm thinking about having a shot of something!

[Judith]

They made a book out of that movie?

Profiteers.


You rock dude.

[divinedaydreams]

Well I haven't been able to read the entire thread due to personnal stuff today, but I thought I would throw in my two cents anyway. (Silly I know)

First I don't think getting rid of certain topics is going to cure the board of the discord. Why? Because people who like to argue and debate will always find something to focus on. Question is where do you want them doing it. I personnal like the suggestion of a section for them. If you go there then its your own damn fault for getting your panties in a bunch. Since I have been here its always been like this, in waves. The whole no ones working on the campaign, we've lost our focus deal. Sorry people get burned out and go to other areas mainly the OT forumn. I usually do a search for the recent posts on FMD and check in on the campaign. Just because I don't talk Farscape doesn't mean I'm not working on more Farscape. Just because people talk Farscape doesn't mean they are doing anything for the campaign.

I don't want to see people banned or forced away either. Surely a forumn called War Territory will work to solve the problem. You can put a nice warning that anything goes and no mods are going to come to your rescue. Thick skin required and other such nonsense.

MHO

[Judith]

I don't want to see people banned or forced away either. Surely a forumn called War Territory will work to solve the problem. You can put a nice warning that anything goes and no mods are going to come to your rescue. Thick skin required and other such nonsense.

MHO


But if we're scaring people away now, should we really have a no-holds-barred section?

[divinedaydreams]

Yep

That is what warnings are for. Not to mention not everyone who is new is going to be an angel or innocent. More people means more opinions and more personalities. Might as well give them a section to do that rather then leave them no place. People are not likely to go looking somewhere else when they normally come here. After all humans are creatures of habit. I come here several times a day. I've been known to tell people I come here to get my news and hot topics.

[buggabboo]

ya know what you can do dd?

you can start your own board. it's not that hard, especially if you don't actually have rules, and you can invite all the people here to hang out there and it can just be like a little home away from home...or ya know. war zone away from home.

we just don't want it here. plain and simple. i truly believe that if we did it would bleed over into other forums. truly.

that's all.

[BritAngie]

I agree with Red and Boo-this forum is about Farscape and saving farscape. If I wanted to read about war or politics or current affair's I'd go to forums devoted to the subjects. It's like having a television and moaning that one channel doesn't have all you want.. That's what the other channels are for. :D

[waltersgirl]

should we really have a no-holds-barred section?

there will, in no uncertain terms, never be such a forum here. ever.

[shadowshiv]

*whew* I have finally read through this entire thread. :thud:

I am a newbie here, and as people can attest to, I like to talk. A lot. Which is a good thing, as it allows me to learn the ropes here, and to start new friendships with fellow members here.

I have only posted in the OT Forums, as well as some of the Welcoming Forum, as I am still getting acclimated here, and feel a little overwhelmed with all the options that are available here.

I just recently signed on here due to the recommendations of BC and Kurt. I would like to thank them for that. :hi: If it wasn't for them, I would never get to see the wonders of such theads as 'Tables, Chairs, And Posts', and the 'Pees In Shower'. I have a lot of fun here, and I do not have a problem with anyone here(I hope!).

I just avoid posting in any of the political threads, as I do not feel the need to get into any tug-of-war matches with anyone here. Everyone here has their own opinions, and while I may not agree with them, I respect them.

The worst thread that I have posted here was in the Boys Burn Puppies thread. I had not heard of that happening, and reading that thread allowed me to vent my feelings on that horrible action perpetrated by those two boys.

Now I realize that the threads that I like to post in are NOT likely to be deleted, and that is fine. I just wanted to say my reasons for liking the OT Forums so much, and that while I do not post in the "main" Farscape Forums, that it does not mean that I do not like Farscape. I would not be here if I did not.

I worked the Farscape Table at TorontoTrek, and I think that we helped a LOT of people there understand what a great show Farscape is and that we 'scaped a bunch of them. I was this close to selling some Calenders, but, alas, it was not meant to be. Dang it. I bought one for myself, though, and it is my hope to get the autographs of all the wonderful people that were in that calender. :cool: I also would like to say that meeting Lani Tupu and Raelee Hill was a wonderful experience, and that they appreciated the hard work that the fans did to get the Mini started, and they loved the calender a lot. They even posed in a picture with it. I do not have a picture of it, but I'm sure someone from here does.

Sorry for the blathering on, I just wanted to say how I feel. I will miss the OT Forums while they are down, but I will be back. I have too many friends here to leave. :)

TOM :)

[Bandana Girl]

Hi Shadowshiv.
I'd like to explain why I'm so angry. When I first read the posts on this thread about the OT, so many people were talking about it it being the ONLY worthwhile forum. I thought the website was called watchfarscape and savefarscape. I honestly feel if there was only an OT forum here we wouldn't be speculating on a new miniseries right now. I really took itr as an insult to the rest of the forums and I have aplan especially. Now ALOT of have done a lot of work in that section. You are telling me none of that stuff is worthwhile? That's how far we've taken people for granted?

Now I did a lot of stuff for Toronto Trek (likeI've said) and I felt really taken for granted by most people who came by the table (shiv you don't know this since we had a talk in the ladies bathroom ;) ask Suse) and also a little used. I did not at all feel that from my fellow scapers. Shiv you could probably attest to the fact that at several times I felt overwhelmed.I felt so taken for granted that I seriously considered ceasing all of my scaper activities (I noticed not a single person who read my posts even cared whether I stopped or not although I mentioned it twice :g2f: )

When everyone was talking about how the OT section was the only one that mattered (really it came off that way folks) I felt COLLASSALLY TAKEN FOR GRANTED BY BASICALLY MY OWN PEOPLE (yes although I rarely post in the OT's section I had considered you guys my people). I felt betrayed and like the knife had been twisted. :cry: I'm gonna admit this but my little sis even told me some things and the night after the con I spent bawling my eyes out (I'm crying as I type this) I guess no one really cares what I or anyone does for scape. The only reason I didT con or any of my other scaper activities (like pubnights for a city I don't live in, or for a con I never even went to(dragging my own VCR in a backpack)) was because I thought I had a group of amazing (non-complacent people) suppoting me. Obviously no one appreciates scapers who do scaper activities since dreaming cats matter more (and I love kitty cats)

Everyone was going on about how welcoming this place was, well you could'a fooled me. people have told me they like dissenting opions (isn't that why you like the political threads so much?) But then when I post something which I think scapers should think about everyone felt really attacked. Heck I've even met grinner in person and I remember we even disaggreed on the politics even then. I know people who never come here and do a tonne for farscape, but since you guys are all here what do you do for scape? That's what I wanted to get you guys to think about. There was even a thread about it, and I think the same 3 people just kept replying on it. Graphic artists do appreciate comments since I know of one graphic artist who left since he didn't think anyone liked his work. My last 3 or 4 posts in I have a plan have been about ecouragement and suppport. My last post there was a hug smiley to Jeffrab and I think before that was a bouncie, It dosen't take much (I know I would've appreciated ita t TTrek, I almost cried when a fellow scaper gave me $40 to cover costs). Posting a bouncie is too much to ask? I even have to ask? Sometimes I'm horribly afraid ideas will get ignored since no one will see it since it seems as if the only worthwhile place to be is the OT's and hey everyone is here anyway.

Oh I didn't post a con report since I felt my bitchiness would come though

Am I any less of a scaper since I don't spend a lot of my time talking about my personal life to you guys? I'm a private person and I don't like my personal life, being broadcast all over the internet, my sister is sick with some mystery illness and frankly it's her illness not mine and I don't think I should broadcast all her business here either. I have been supporting the calender project (which was started in the OT section) which I had been reading on and not posting on when it was in the OT section and I even considered sending a picture(which is a good thing I didn't since frankly if I don't post all the details about my personal life I wouldn't be considered belonging here). The fact that I even posted about the arthritis thing was a MAJOR deal for me since I usually don't think of going on the internet for support (I literally went to the keyboard right after I got the phone call). I really thought of you guys as friends, but I guess only people who live in the OT section are real scapers. You know I usually check this section everday (like for years) and honestly I just don't find a plethera of topics that interest me. I used to go to the European section to direct french speaking scapers to a french site and talk with other scapers who don't count a nielsen points. But since i'm on now 5 (that right 5 ) other boards talking up scape trying to get people to watch i don't have a tonne of time to spend here.I even started a thread about posting in aother boards (thats what you guys can do while you are without the OT section, and it costs no money) I thought people here would appreciate my efforts but unless I lay my life bare before you all I'm not really amember of the FMD.

Yes I'm still angry sign me up for banning (yes thats me being sarcastic through the tears)

[divinedaydreams]

ya know what you can do dd?

you can start your own board. it's not that hard, especially if you don't actually have rules, and you can invite all the people here to hang out there and it can just be like a little home away from home...or ya know. war zone away from home.

we just don't want it here. plain and simple. i truly believe that if we did it would bleed over into other forums. truly.

that's all.

Hey just an opinion. I would be more than happy if a few things weren't in my way...

Moding over 45 Yahoo groups
Lack of computer skills
Doing Parrot rescues
Keeping up with a toddler
Getting ready for a new addition to the family
Helping with Farscape
Spending time on FMD

None of the above is expendable in my eyes. So I guess it will have to wait. My big concern is arguemenative people are going to find something to get people up in arms about. If removing of certain threads were a guarentee then I'm all for it. I just think you still going to have problems.

But it isn't my board and I don't mod it. I like it here and don't intend to leave.

[Bandana Girl]

I was gonna edit but I lost track on that calender thing. I fully support it and in fact selling the rest of the calenders I have (15 left) with an additional swag goodies (some even from my own private stash). With a few more sales I can even send back some funds to Selena. I had been reading about (put not posting) it for a long time while it was in the OT section. I never meant to say the OT section was dren, but the other forums aren't dren either.

Also I'd like to know what is so uninviting to I have a plan? (Am I baiting again?(sarcasm folks) Please PM me if you don't want to post it here. I honestly think it should be addressed though.

[divinedaydreams]

I was gonna edit but I lost track on that calender thing. I fully support it and in fact selling the rest of the calenders I have (15 left) with an additional swag goodies (some even from my own private stash). With a few more sales I can even send back some funds to Selena. I had been reading about (put not posting) it for a long time while it was in the OT section. I never meant to say the OT section was dren, but the other forums aren't dren either.

Also I'd like to know what is so uninviting to I have a plan? (Am I baiting again?(sarcasm folks) Please PM me if you don't want to post it here. I honestly think it should be addressed though.

I don't think there is anything particularly uninviting to the "I Have A Plan". I do notice that people generally have a few complaints. One that unless you have a lot of money to throw into the bigger projects you feel like you aren't helping. Yes I know there are other ways and its been pointed out before but generally the big projects get the most attention and the louder voices and usually its for money. Second if you are trying to start a project and don't have the backing of some bigger names right off then the project can die. The PMU foal project almost did. Third it takes a bit of time to get projects going and they are a lot of work. Both are not condusive to the casual viewers just popping in to check stuff out. Takes commitment and not everyone is going to be willing to even vote in a poll or send a letter. Newbies tend to get a little intimidated also by those of us trying to get them involved. Sometimes our personalities come out and if they don't know us they can take what is said in a different light. I try not to sound badgery myself but it happens.

[scrape_medic]

Hi Shadowshiv.
I'd like to explain why I'm so angry. When I first read the posts on this thread about the OT, so many people were talking about it it being the ONLY worthwhile forum. I thought the website was called watchfarscape and savefarscape. I honestly feel if there was only an OT forum here we wouldn't be speculating on a new miniseries right now. I really took itr as an insult to the rest of the forums and I have aplan especially. Now ALOT of have done a lot of work in that section. You are telling me none of that stuff is worthwhile? That's how far we've taken people for granted?
For starters, stop being angry, thats a very negative emotions and as such is totally non-prpductive. The energy could be better used elsewhere. I agree with you the the OTs are not the most important part of the site, and I don't think anyone on this thread has said it was. They are however defending them right now because it is the OT's that is under discussion in this case.

Now I did a lot of stuff for Toronto Trek (likeI've said) and I felt really taken for granted by most people who came by the table (shiv you don't know this since we had a talk in the ladies bathroom ;) ask Suse) and also a little used. I did not at all feel that from my fellow scapers. Shiv you could probably attest to the fact that at several times I felt overwhelmed.I felt so taken for granted that I seriously considered ceasing all of my scaper activities (I noticed not a single person who read my posts even cared whether I stopped or not although I mentioned it twice :g2f: )
People are generally crap at expressing appreciation, I am sorry you feel this way.

When everyone was talking about how the OT section was the only one that mattered (really it came off that way folks) I felt COLLASSALLY TAKEN FOR GRANTED BY BASICALLY MY OWN PEOPLE (yes although I rarely post in the OT's section I had considered you guys my people). I felt betrayed and like the knife had been twisted. :cry: I'm gonna admit this but my little sis even told me some things and the night after the con I spent bawling my eyes out (I'm crying as I type this) I guess no one really cares what I or anyone does for scape. The only reason I didT con or any of my other scaper activities (like pubnights for a city I don't live in, or for a con I never even went to(dragging my own VCR in a backpack)) was because I thought I had a group of amazing (non-complacent people) suppoting me. Obviously no one appreciates scapers who do scaper activities since dreaming cats matter more (and I love kitty cats)I go to work and not everyday am I obsessed with Farscape (shocking, I know). Everyday I see abused kids, abandonned grannys left alone to fester in houses they can't physically cope with, the sick, the dying, the reckless who go out and think they can drive under the influence and crash into lamposts (IF they don't crash into someone else), the myriad of patients who call us out because the got the cold and think they need imediate hopitalisation (er...no!) the drunks who live on the street, the women losing their babies, the mentally ill who should be cared for by someone other than themselves and don't get the help so are in crisis, the self harmers the suicidal, the idiot who tirps over the flagstone and bumps his head (should have looked where you were walking mate), the chronically ill who will never have a 'normal' life again and are desperately sad about it, the battered, the mutilated, the tortured victims from african warzones, the 14 year old who think it is hip to be drunk and/or pregnant, the guy who just took a pasting and reckons he going back there tooled up this time, (yeah riiight, like they ain't gonna snatch that weapon off of you and use it on you instead), the druggies, the overdoses, the newborn and the dead.
Two things, one is that they hardly ever appreciate the things I do for them, rarely say thanks, but I still keep doing those things not just because I get paid for it but because I LOVE my job with a passion.Secondly, after days like that, sometimes talking about the cat, or being able to laugh about something stupid is what keeps this person sane.


Am I any less of a scaper since I don't spend a lot of my time talking about my personal life to you guys? I'm a private person and I don't like my personal life, being broadcast all over the internet, my sister is sick with some mystery illness and frankly it's her illness not mine and I don't think I should broadcast all her business here either............... I thought people here would appreciate my efforts but unless I lay my life bare before you all I'm not really amember of the FMD.

Yes I'm still angry sign me up for banning (yes thats me being sarcastic through the tears)
You can talk about whatever you like in the OT, thats the point, if you don't want to talk about specifics, that are personal to you then thats fine. No one is standing behind you making you type things that you don't want to. Again I am sorry you don't feel appreciated, I know that I appreciate ALL the efforts that everyone on this board has gone to to bring the show back, and build this community too. Its a fantastic community, filled with fantastic people. So there, if I have never said it to you personally, I am saying it now.

I think they said NO ONE was getting banned and I am down with that.

[LT Garrix]

(((((BG)))))

Let me say it here, I appreciate what you are doing to promote Farscape. It is laudible and you are right, not enough people say thanks, and I know I'm guilty.

As for the "I Have a Plan" as has been said, there are many great ideas out there that need money to get off the ground. We have a lot of people that just don't have funds and feel left out. Yes, there are other things that they can be doing, but some do feel intimidated jumping into a project in the middle. Should they? No, we're Scapers and would love to have the help.

Have I been involved as much as I could be? I don't know. Let's just say that hubby barely tolerates Farscape so my ability to support is extremely limited. I can't wear the pins on my clothes or carry a bag, uniform regs, I don't have an office so I can't put stuff up there.

What do I do? I have a website, okay I belatedly realized the new incarnation doesn't have the SaveFarscape info on the front page, I need to rectify that. I also make videos that people, me included, use to Scape others.

I'm truly sorry that you feel too much emphasis has been placed on the OT forum. Are there some that seem to have made and overly big deal of the temporary downing of this forum? Possibly. Will we live for a couple days? Yes

again, :hugz:

[grinner]

Bandana Girl, I would like to say first that no one thinks that what you are doing is not important. Hell, it is very important. I would like to say that, second, I know that what the OT's are about is just... nonsense. In the grand sceme of things, it isn't worth 2 cents. It isn't what the campaign is about, it is about... relaxing and have conversations with people.
That said, I talk Scape with people I meet. I have scaped a whole mess of people... lending out tapes and other things. Whenever I meet people who are into FarScape that don't come here, I suggest they come look at things. I tell them who I am on the Forum. I make the attempt at prosylizing the wonders of FarScape. I would not do this, if it weren't for this forum. I never did that with Doctor Who. I never did that with any show I have been a 'fan' of. What has made the difference is this forum. This community.

[DRD2001]

Hi Shadowshiv.
I'd like to explain why I'm so angry. When I first read the posts on this thread about the OT, so many people were talking about it it being the ONLY worthwhile forum. I thought the website was called watchfarscape and savefarscape. I honestly feel if there was only an OT forum here we wouldn't be speculating on a new miniseries right now. I really took itr as an insult to the rest of the forums and I have aplan especially. Now ALOT of have done a lot of work in that section. You are telling me none of that stuff is worthwhile? That's how far we've taken people for granted?

Now I did a lot of stuff for Toronto Trek (likeI've said) and I felt really taken for granted by most people who came by the table (shiv you don't know this since we had a talk in the ladies bathroom ;) ask Suse) and also a little used. I did not at all feel that from my fellow scapers. Shiv you could probably attest to the fact that at several times I felt overwhelmed.I felt so taken for granted that I seriously considered ceasing all of my scaper activities (I noticed not a single person who read my posts even cared whether I stopped or not although I mentioned it twice :g2f: )

When everyone was talking about how the OT section was the only one that mattered (really it came off that way folks) I felt COLLASSALLY TAKEN FOR GRANTED BY BASICALLY MY OWN PEOPLE (yes although I rarely post in the OT's section I had considered you guys my people). I felt betrayed and like the knife had been twisted. :cry: I'm gonna admit this but my little sis even told me some things and the night after the con I spent bawling my eyes out (I'm crying as I type this) I guess no one really cares what I or anyone does for scape. The only reason I didT con or any of my other scaper activities (like pubnights for a city I don't live in, or for a con I never even went to(dragging my own VCR in a backpack)) was because I thought I had a group of amazing (non-complacent people) suppoting me. Obviously no one appreciates scapers who do scaper activities since dreaming cats matter more (and I love kitty cats)

Everyone was going on about how welcoming this place was, well you could'a fooled me. people have told me they like dissenting opions (isn't that why you like the political threads so much?) But then when I post something which I think scapers should think about everyone felt really attacked. Heck I've even met grinner in person and I remember we even disaggreed on the politics even then. I know people who never come here and do a tonne for farscape, but since you guys are all here what do you do for scape? That's what I wanted to get you guys to think about. There was even a thread about it, and I think the same 3 people just kept replying on it. Graphic artists do appreciate comments since I know of one graphic artist who left since he didn't think anyone liked his work. My last 3 or 4 posts in I have a plan have been about ecouragement and suppport. My last post there was a hug smiley to Jeffrab and I think before that was a bouncie, It dosen't take much (I know I would've appreciated ita t TTrek, I almost cried when a fellow scaper gave me $40 to cover costs). Posting a bouncie is too much to ask? I even have to ask? Sometimes I'm horribly afraid ideas will get ignored since no one will see it since it seems as if the only worthwhile place to be is the OT's and hey everyone is here anyway.

Oh I didn't post a con report since I felt my bitchiness would come though

Am I any less of a scaper since I don't spend a lot of my time talking about my personal life to you guys? I'm a private person and I don't like my personal life, being broadcast all over the internet, my sister is sick with some mystery illness and frankly it's her illness not mine and I don't think I should broadcast all her business here either. I have been supporting the calender project (which was started in the OT section) which I had been reading on and not posting on when it was in the OT section and I even considered sending a picture(which is a good thing I didn't since frankly if I don't post all the details about my personal life I wouldn't be considered belonging here). The fact that I even posted about the arthritis thing was a MAJOR deal for me since I usually don't think of going on the internet for support (I literally went to the keyboard right after I got the phone call). I really thought of you guys as friends, but I guess only people who live in the OT section are real scapers. You know I usually check this section everday (like for years) and honestly I just don't find a plethera of topics that interest me. I used to go to the European section to direct french speaking scapers to a french site and talk with other scapers who don't count a nielsen points. But since i'm on now 5 (that right 5 ) other boards talking up scape trying to get people to watch i don't have a tonne of time to spend here.I even started a thread about posting in aother boards (thats what you guys can do while you are without the OT section, and it costs no money) I thought people here would appreciate my efforts but unless I lay my life bare before you all I'm not really amember of the FMD.

Yes I'm still angry sign me up for banning (yes thats me being sarcastic through the tears)
Ya know, I had a reply. But I'm tired and right now, I could care less.

Say what you will.

It couldn't make me feel less any like crap and it couldn't make me feel like all my efforts to help were, are and have been a complete waste of my time and money.

Maybe I'm being too sensitive now. If so, ignore me. There is no need to reply, because I will get over it.

[Judith]

Obviously no one appreciates scapers who do scaper activities since dreaming cats matter more (and I love kitty cats)


You seem really bitter about the whole OT section.

Though, yes, for me, cats do matter more than Scaper activities. I work in animal rescue. It's my calling and the one cause that I will drop ANYTHING for. Does this mean I have nothing to offer the SaveFarscape? Absolutely not. I love Farscape. I wanted the show back. Now we're getting it, and I'm working to get lots of new eyes on the mini.




I know people who never come here and do a tonne for farscape, but since you guys are all here what do you do for scape? That's what I wanted to get you guys to think about.



Why do you feel we have to justify our actions to you? Why are you assuming we don't think about it?



Am I any less of a scaper since I don't spend a lot of my time talking about my personal life to you guys? I'm a private person and I don't like my personal life, being broadcast all over the internet, my sister is sick with some mystery illness and frankly it's her illness not mine and I don't think I should broadcast all her business here either.



I'm really sorry for what's happening with your sister. Really. I'm going through a time when a lot of my loved ones are sick too, and it's one of the most painful things in the world.

Please don't assume that anyone thinks you are less of a scaper because you don't bare your soul here. We recognize that everyone has different comfort levels. Not everyone wants to talk about their personal life. That's cool. But for some people it really helps. And that's okay too.

[quendi]

*quendi runs up and hugs DRD2001*

[Selena]

I sure hope that BlackT, DK and Brian haven't stopped by this thread in the last 24 hours and seen us airing our laundry. If they did, I'm sure they're shocked to read about this discord and wonder just what the frell we are doing here.

Can we really afford to be telling people who are actively involved in the campaign to promote Farscape, that we don't need them and they can go start their own web sites over a difference of opinion about one small part of FMD?

I know I might be considered a bit slow at times, but I am still not clear what is at the grass roots of this thread. If it's the way people at FMD interact with each other, then that is pretty consistent across the board and not limited to the OTs as there is sniping and name calling and whining in many of the other forums. But if it's the fact that a lot of people hang out in the OTs and post here more than anywhere else, then maybe we need to ask ourselves why is that? Why are people hanging out here more and not elsewhere? Or are they really hanging out elsewhere too and contributing but not as much as some would like them to? Accusing all of us of not participating in the campaigns and not working to save Farscape is inflammatory and does nothing but alienate the people that we need to do the work. I know I felt offended by those comments.

I've been part of this campaign in many ways for almost 2 years and I was surprised when I got really involved and tried to help organize just one project at the degree of hostility and unpleasantness that I was subjected to by a number of people. I thought I would get help with the project which involved more than a dozen FMD Scapers. I thought I would be able to seek advice, make contacts, have parameters for working on the project, assistance with promotion, maybe even have some rules (based on previous successes) that had been set up to make sure our projects succeed. I thought there might be a "point person" that would guide us and an offer of help with financing - or at least some guidance as to how to finance a project but instead, I received very little of any of that (except some valuable advice from one very kind person who had already been through the process).

Maybe other people feel the same way. Maybe that's why we're not all working on projects. Very few of us (fans) have ever had to head up a project and bring it successfully to a profitable conclusion. And let's not kid ourselves, we can't afford to have one single project fail so ALL of them have to succeed. So we are scared and we sure don't have the money that it takes to fund things up front. So we muddle through doing our best and giving our all to get a project done and we do it with very little thanks and certainly (in my case) very little support from our "save Farscape" hierarchy where I thought the help would come from.

Most of us (who have been involved in a project) have learned through trial and error and we have found out after we have committed a lot of time and in many cases a lot of money, that we are on our own when we are involved in working on a project. And as a bonus we have in many cases, received a lot of hostility and criticism along the way when what we needed and asked for was a helping hand. No wonder BandanaGirl feels that she is being taken for granted, many of us working in a project feel the same way. There are dozens of us who have worked long and hard and we do not care to hear that we are not doing the job that the web site is here for and that if we don't like something then we can go elsewhere. If we wanted to be elsewhere, many of us would have gone long ago as there is really little to keep a fan here except the "community" and "fellowship" of the other Scapers - yes, even the ones we argue with.

If our current and future efforts are going to succeed and we want others to join in the projects then that forum has to become a whole lot more friendly than it has been and is at present. When people offer ideas they do not need a whole lot of negativity dumped on them - all ideas should bear merit even the ones that some might consider "stupid". People who put their time and talents and finances into ventures that are supposed to promote Farscape need help from those who have already been there and done that. We need some form of advisory group that is able to step in and have the help that the project coordinator needs. We need some type of support group who can help those working on projects overcome the difficulties and obstacles they encounter. If we're not prepared to do that, then we will not be getting new workers for the campaign and many campaigns that would promote Farscape will fall by the wayside.
If 6 months ago, I knew what I know now about the project I have tried to coordinate, I would not have been foolish enough to try to tackle it. My path has been strewn with discouragement and difficulties that FMD did not care about. Putting a few dollars into a pot is relatively easy compared to having to put in hundreds of hours of time and effort and then reap very little reward for the effort. If we really want the campaigns to succeed and the many people that are registered here to be actively involved, then all of us have to be more willing to work towards that goal.

The problem is not that the OTs are a popular hangout and the other forums are not - the problem IMO is that we are like many ships sailing towards a distant goal but we have very little actual direction and only a few of us have a compass.

[Shipscat]

((DRD2001)))

(((bandanagirl))))

I hate to see anyone think that their efforts were a waste, or unappreciated. Bandana Girl, if I never said anything about your work at Toronto Trek, I'm sorry..and DRD 2001, I have always appreciated your cheerful help and enthusiasm. Every time I see a campaign thread with your name posting in it, I know that there's someone with good suggestions who's cheerleading their heart out.

I think everyone, including the admins, knows that an off-topic forum is necessary. In the old days, on the Dom, where there were no separate forums, there was always some discussion as to whether the posts for Birthdays, etc, were necessary..someone would come along and question as to whether those things 'belonged' in a Farscape forum. But that's the glue that binds people together-how friends (and enemies) are made, when you laugh and celebrate and mourn together. On a board that has separate areas, you will get a lot of off-topic posts in other areas if you don't have an off-topic section. And this board's focus is pretty tight-it's not a general vague interest, by any means, so there is a need for a place for posts that don't belong elsewhere.

But by the same token, Scaperdom runs deeper and longer than the campaign. The fandom was here before the cancellation, and will be here for who knows how much longer after the mini....and there are boards, and sites, and email lists and groups, and ALL of them have Scapers, who are the coolest people around. There's a lot more to the fandom than one off-topic forum, so please don't think that if things are getting a little rocky here that that's all there is to Scaperdom.

[Selena]

I just wanted to point out to those who think that this forum is JUST about dreaming cats, peeing in the shower, word games and political threads that there are people like Who45 who turns to us for support as her father is dying and a young man recently who was suicidal and had no-one else to talk to but us in the OTs. Neither of these topics would be appropriate to the Farscape discussion area and the campaigning area.

[AgentSun]

right...well a lot of people have already said what i've wanted to say to bandana girl (and we all still love you and you still rock, as usual), so we'll leave it at that...

the OT's is not more important than anything else...however, that doesn't mean any other forum is more important than the OT's. they're all made of binary, created equal. what makes them different (but still equal) are the things that go on inside those forums. i see the OT's as more personal to me, because the people who post in there know my personal life. i'm not surprised when i go to the board and i see someone who had a bad day and post on the board...hell, once i was out for a whole day, got home at 3 am, had to go to work at 8, and the first place i went to was the board! is that sad? maybe. but like scrape_medic says, it's something that keeps me sane. i don't do the things she does, work where she does, and see the same things, but i have my own issues, and being in the OT's helps sometimes. people here are older and wiser, i know that. if i have a problem, i know people will help. that's why they're important to me. sometimes i need help and direction, and sometimes the OT's can provide it.

eta: and selena's last post was an example of what i mean...

[LiLOrion]

I sure hope that BlackT, DK and Brian haven't stopped by this thread in the last 24 hours and seen us airing our laundry. If they did, I'm sure they're shocked to read about this discord and wonder just what the frell we are doing here.


Ehh...people air dirty laundry/disagree all the time. I'm sure they dont think the forums are all gumdrops, lollipops, skipping and singing Kumbaya. :lol


The problem is not that the OTs are a popular hangout and the other forums are not - the problem IMO is that we are like many ships sailing towards a distant goal but we have very little actual direction and only a few of us have a compass.

Well that makes sense. People really dont "hang out" in the others forums cause thats not the main purpose of the other forums. So The OTs are a popular hang-out cause thats what its there for. I dont see a problem with the forum, but then again, I could care less about arguing with people I dont have to see face to face. :D


I have a compass. Its spinning at the moment but thats probably cause I'm twirling around in my chair. :lol

And as of right now, I think the MAIN direction this campaign is headed is in getting eyes for the mini. So I think a blanket descriptive statement would be PROMOTION of the show/mini. We have a lot of promoting going on which is maybe why people feel like they are being pulled in different directions or why there is no "direction".

The postcards
Library bookmarks
Convention presence and all the related goodies that go with that like calendars, tattoos and stickers, etc., etc.
Other things I'm probably forgetting - dont shoot me.
And of course the commercials - which ARE being worked on...

Are all working towards that goal. But I think different people are heading up different things so it seems like we are kinda all over the place when we really arent.

And...well...you know what? I have no idea what point I was trying to make. DAMMIT!! I hate that!. :lol

[AgentSun]

but the spinning chair comment was pretty funny!

[Antrobus]

I thought people here would appreciate my efforts but unless I lay my life bare before you all I'm not really amember of the FMD.

Everything anyone does, big or small, to promote Farscape is appreciated as far as I'm concerned. Appreciation, while in existance, is often not spoken. That's true in almost every aspect of life. Does it hurt when one's not recognized? It can.

But you know, I do the things I do generally for the good of some cause and whether I get recognized or not for what I may do for said cause doesn't bother me anymore. "Thank yous" are nice, but I can live without them because I'm more focused on the cause I've worked for and not whether anyone noticed or appreciated anything that I did for said cause.

If you feel that you made a difference and that you brought Farscape to some people's attention, that's a reward in itself and you should congratulate yourself! For instance, if my bumpersticker on my car gets one person to think about Farscape, then I feel like I've done something.

In some ways, joining this board and promoting Farscape is somewhat like a job that people have chosen to take. And like a job, you do your work and seldom get any praise. You don't get praise because what you're doing is expected of you. There is a feeling on this board that everyone is in this together and when people are working as a team they often don't think to thank other members of that team because everyone's doing the same thing in a joint effort.

Now, I'll agree that that may be a cold and insensitive way of looking at it, but I don't think its an unrealistic way of looking at it - and its only one way of looking at it.

As for personal stuff. I post very little about my personal life here. I choose not to. I could go on in great lengths about health issues, family problems, etc. My life isn't a piece of cake, but neither are other peoples. And for me, my personal life not an issue that has anything to do with Farscape. In certain posts I may allude to aspects of my life, but in reality no one knows much of anything about me.(And please don't anybody read anything more into the paragraph above than the fact that I personally choose not to post personal issues regarding my day to day life here. It's not meant as any kind of criticism towards people who do post personal issues here, becasue I don't have a problem with that). I'm not about to start a personal blog here - or anywhere for that matter!

So....IMO everyone should know that whatever they're doing for Farscape is appreciated, whether it spoken or not!

[AgentSun]

As for personal stuff. I post very little about my personal life here. I choose not to. I could go on in great lengths about health issues, family problems, etc. My life isn't a piece of cake, but neither are other peoples. And for me my personal life not an issue that has anything to do with Farscape. In certain posts I may allude to aspects of my life, but in reality no one knows much of anything about me.(And please don't anybody read anything more into the paragraph above than the fact that I personally choose not to post personal issues regarding my day to day life here). I not about to start a personal blog here - or anywhere for that matter!

and i totally respect that. i know there are members who do, i might be one of them, but those who don't are no less of a member, in my eyes. you are just as important as anyone else is, whether you talk about personal stuff or not. i think for us who do, we do it because we know we will get support and comfort. and for those of us who don't, we know it's there if we need it, but we might not need it from this board. that's totally respectable to me. i respect all the members here, whether i agree with their opinions or not. the thing that makes us great is that we're fans of farscape, but also that we're friends who are part of a community. i think it's a great testament to this board that a lot of people can talk about their personal lives...i mean, it shows that they're open and comfortable with the people here, and it shows that the people who reply genuinely care. you don't see that in a lot of other places.

[Antrobus]

AS, I went back and edited that statement because I was afraid that people would think that I had an issue with anyone posting personal stuff here, and the fact is that I don't.

[AgentSun]

i certainly didn't think that, and i don't think anyone else did either, but thanks.

[Bandana Girl]

((((((DRD2001)))))))
Well to be honest I always thought I what any scaper did here was appreciated. It was only until I read the first posts here that I felt different. I never meant all the people here didn't help save FS. I just felt there were some and frankly all the people who thought i meant them I didn't mean them. What someone said about DRD2001 I truly feel also. I'm sorry you feel like crap and I honesty sorry if I hurt you. I never ever meant you DRD2001. Just so everyone knows DRD2001 sent me some beautiful swag for T-Trek and it didn't show up in time it is now going to go to all the scapers who worked on scape at the con (including con com members who made sure there was scape guests and scape programming(there are lots of those)).

About tha cat dreaming I was using that as an example I did not intend to be bitter I just felt hurt. I could mention lots of other things and it wasn't meant as an insult to you I just grabbed that out of left field (Miss BG feels like she should start a thread on squirrels for goodness sakes so she can use a safe example). I just felt hurt that the OT was the most important section on this whole board that was the impression I got from the first posts here. Heck I occaissionally post here. Now I never felt I had to say this but honestly I usually feel like I'm coming into a clique here, in fact it was a least a year before I felt free enough to post here. Now into whole tonne of personal stuff since. I'm not a trusting person (there a said it, that was very hard to say) but usually there is always some drama or the other and i always end up having some kind of breakdown or burnout doing a Scape table and I'm sure other people have felt really stressed too (this is really hard for me to say and I'm crying as I type again Oh frell Inever thought I'd be crying at an FS board) It's VERY HARD FOR ME to open up to people. and well I'd always thought while I was stressing out or bursting out crying that at the very least you guys appreciate what I and tonnes of other scapers do. No one ever had to say it. I thought it was a team even but just reading that if the OT were gone for 2 days you won't even come to the FMD? I was like what!!! I was that mistaken about my 'fellow' scapers? Are they even my 'fellows' anymore? And like I've said for the thousandth time my experiences a T-Trek kind of soured me on con tables but until I read that post(s) I really thought we were a team. Now I don't even know anymore I really don't.

Once again I try to be very general and it comes back to kick me in the eema.

Usually I do other things other then con table. But cons are the ones that leave me most stressed out

[scrape_medic]

:confused:

[abbadon]

They made a book out of that movie?

Profiteers.


That's what make the OT's special to me..... :lol *the laughs ..the fun..the genuine empathy....in short ...THE PEOPLE..

And this really isnt about the OT's V's otherparts of the Site..Thats not the issue..There is no "Us and Them"..It's all us...People just respond to threads topics and items that intrest them....and to topics and Parts of the forum they feel comfortable with.....Nothing wrong with that...It's one big ship this Thing called FMD....some people are better in the Engine room..as a driving force and getting Dirty...some are better at climbing the crows nest and Looking for new worlds to conquer....and some just like to sit topside and feel the sea breeze on their nether regions....but you know what...thats ok...Thats what makes it fun....BTW anyone got some Lotion...I starting to feel the wind-burn..... :swing:

[AgentSun]

okay, some clarification...the riled up posts regarding the OT's being down for a few days was NOT about the fact that the OT's would be down for a few days. it was concern over what would happen over those two days that we were posting about. this is in no way, shape, or form, about the OT's closing for a few days..hell, we've had some downtime before when the server crashed, when we were hacked, etc. we've dealt with closings......it is WHY it's closing down for a few days that we were talking about. and what is happening in those few days that we were posting about. i can survive without the OT's for a few days, as can everyone else. we were discussing what was going to happen to the OT's and why it was being closed.

and i really mean absolutely no offense here, but the OT's is not the most important forum...there is no 'most importan't forum here on the board. none. they are all equal. that said, this entire thread is about the status of the OT's so it only makes sense that we would be talking about the OT's in this thread. there has been conflict here for a while...and now there's a thread that is being used to explain and communicate and discuss what is going on in this particular forum. no wonder we're talking a lot about the OT's--it's important to us. any talk of not returning to FMD was NOT AT ALL about the closing...it was about why it was closing and what was going to happen during the closing that some members expressed the idea of not returning.

and honestly, really, NO OFFENSE, please do not take any of this in offense, but you not being a trusting person does not mean we're a clique that does not let anyone in, nor is it our fault that you didn't feel free enough to post...the only person that can post under "Bandana Girl" is you. honestly, i had no idea that shadowshiv was a newbie, until it was pointed out that shiv registered in august 2004. i didn't notice. i had no idea. shiv is one of us, just like you're one of us. maybe it's me...i registered in 2003, and i just started chatting away. :shrug: maybe that's the kind of person i am. and i'm so sorry (i really am) that you find it hard to open up to people.....and i'm sorry if you've felt like we're unwelcoming or that we're a clique here, but i promise you, we're not. just start talking in any thread, any at all, and you'll find that we welcome people with open arms.

[trubador]

We're all just one, big disfunctional family, aren't we? :rollin: Kinda like the Farscape crew... thrown together in a strange universe for the last two years. :D If we didn't care as much as this lengthy thread demonstrates, we all wouldn't have bothered to stick around after getting our egos bruised the first time around. What a testament to FMD. :hug: I love you guys & gals!

[grinner]

We are Jerry's Kids... Jerry Springer's... a Jerry Springer style family

[Bandana Girl]

Ah see thats why I didn't want to say I wasn't a trusting person because I instantly knew people would make that connection instantly. Anyway why I'm still posting I don't know.

[scrape_medic]

BTW anyone got some Lotion...I starting to feel the wind-burn..... :swing:
Where do you want it abb?

[AgentSun]

well, if you aren't comfortable posting personal information, that's fine! as antrobus said earlier, he just doesn't do that. and no one is saying you have to. i just don't know what the issue is. i'm sorry that you feel as if we're a bit of a clique, but it really is not hard to start conversation or join conversation here. we're not a clique. if you feel overwhelmed by the inside jokes and things like that, start your own thread...the only way we ever get in jokes is because someone started a thread!

[SabaceanBabe]

{{{{{BandanaGirl}}}}}

:hug:

:(

[StarsGoBlue]

I have a compass. Its spinning at the moment but thats probably cause I'm twirling around in my chair. :lol

And as of right now, I think the MAIN direction this campaign is headed is in getting eyes for the mini. So I think a blanket descriptive statement would be PROMOTION of the show/mini. We have a lot of promoting going on which is maybe why people feel like they are being pulled in different directions or why there is no "direction".

The postcards
Library bookmarks
Convention presence and all the related goodies that go with that like calendars, tattoos and stickers, etc., etc.
Other things I'm probably forgetting - dont shoot me.
And of course the commercials - which ARE being worked on...

Are all working towards that goal. But I think different people are heading up different things so it seems like we are kinda all over the place when we really arent.



That's exactly it, Lil O.

It's been stated time and again that the purpose of this website is NOT to tell people what to do, but to allow them a place to decide what they want to do, and work from there. Yes, there are times when "official" (for lack of a better word) projects are developed, but they are developed in exactly the same way as every other project on the board.

People kick around an idea--and I'm sorry if you don't agree, Selena, but that does involve, IMO, discussion of an idea's potential effectiveness, redundancy, cost, focus, reach, so many things--and then someone either decides to go for it or not. Ultimately, that is THEIR decision. That's logical. Unfortunately, some people see the discussion/feedback as negativism and criticism, when it could just be people troubleshooting for problems or potential pitfalls of an idea. And yes, sometimes those comments get testy, when they are intended or perceived as personal rather than project-related. That's one of the drawbacks of group dynamics. Either you shrug it off and continue, or not. Again, it's a personal choice.

Two years ago, when I first asked aeryncrichton if I could use the little song she and her hubby had written for a singing telegram to Scifi, there were a lot of questions about the very same topics I listed above. I read the posts, and responded to them, and thought about the issues that had arisen. In the end, I decided that *I* thought it was a worthwhile thing to do, and sorted out the details. Then I was excited to come back and share with everyone the outcome. No one tried to "steal" my "thunder" or claim credit for the success...everyone was genuinely glad that it appeared the effort had reached the attention of TPTB.

I will also freely admit that there have been, and are, some projects here that I don't personally support, for a variety of reasons. Some don't interest me; it's as simple as that--and as we all have a limited amount of time in our day, there just has to be prioritization. Other projects appear to have a base of support already, so why throw myself into the mix when I could be useful elsewhere? And then, of course, are some projects that I think are too costly, or redundant, or not really reaching a wide group, or whatever.

Does that mean they aren't worthy projects for someone to run? Hell no. But does it necessarily mean that every single project will be a blazing success? It's unrealistic to expect that, IMO. And it has nothing to do with the "support" of "big names", in the end... ultimately, it has to do with a variety of factors.

Yes, some projects require funding, and we've always been lucky that so many people are willing to donate their hard-earned money to so many ideas. That doesn't guarantee that all projects will be funded to the degree we'd like them to be, though; so anyone thinking about a project should take that into serious consideration. It seems that the most successful projects have been the ones that have completed fundraising before any materials are purchased or expenses incurred. That's just common sense, in my view. YMMV.

Every single person on this board is incredibly busy. The most successful projects will be those where enough people are interested, that they split up the leg work into manageable chunks. It's very difficult for one or two or a handful of people to be able to organize a massive project, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. People should set their own parameters for how much time and effort they can invest in a project, and if one is in the planning stages, think seriously about whether they have that much time to spare.

What is sometimes lost in the campaign strat forum, although it's something that has also been repeated ad nauseum---WE are the best advertisement for Farscape and the miniseries. Word of mouth. And we're free. We've got email, and some of us have websites and livejournals and blogs to post banners, and we can write postcards and letters and pass out flyers and have friends over to watch. We can wear buttons and shirts or put a FREE bumper sticker on our cars or in our cubicles or lunchrooms. There are so many things that we can do... and every single effort is invaluable.

It's been a long, hard road for two years... but we've only got two months to go. One last sprint and then we can catch our breath.

DK said it best at Comic Con, but I have a brain like swiss cheese so I can only paraphrase as best as I remember: Come away from the past, and into the future.

There's lots to be done still, for anyone who wants to help, in whatever way they think is best for themselves.

[abbadon]

Where do you want it abb?

To the aft to the aft...Yelled seaman Abb as the Captain sternly looked astern.... :rolleyes:

[Jul]

Selena -

I'm sure if anybody popped by, they'd see this as a clearing the air between family members, and is actually a long time coming, if you ask me..

and as for telling people that we don't need them, that's not true. If you read waltersgirl's post you'd see this:

because this board exists to save Farscape. this isn't a standard fan site. it's a campaign site. those posters that get out of control about hot-button issues came here originally because they are fans of Farscape and Farscape needs their help. banning them is not so much with the helpful.

What we're saying is for scapers that NEED politics, we're not going to be providing that anymore, so if they really want it, they can head to one of the other Scaper websites - like Kansas, the FWA, etc, or create their own website with that purpose in mind.

Now setting aside your disagreements about the subject at hand, let's talk about your extreme disappointments in the way the "hierarchy of savefarscape.com" has worked out for you, Selena, because it's something I've heard about regarding you from many, many people..First off, we're ALL fans of the show.. which is why we're here, no matter who we are and what we do.

We're not about to bureaucratize (is that even a word?) the manner in which projects are presented here. Everybody here is free to post ideas for projects in the I Have A Plan forum, on the savefarscape announcements yahoo group and post their plan on the front page or ask us to post it for them - which we've done for your project when things were submitted. I've even made a few phone calls for you in the last few days. I've answered numerous questions from individuals that have asked about administrating funds for their projects and what they can do to fund projects - I believe UTChick was one of those individuals. I believe we discussed the differences between donations and selling. that's the material support you can expect from us. If you want financing for projects up front, well then, I suggest speaking to the FWA about getting a grant for your project. We don't do that here.

You assumed things and we failed to live up to your assumptions, and I'm sorry for that, but honestly there are NO RULES. We don't take over other people's projects and make them our own, we give people a venue to make their projects known. If somebody has a project and they want us to be involved, we're involved from the onset, not when everything is said and done. Doesn't work that way through our website. Beyond that, the Scapers that populate this website have to support a project. Every project is sink or swim here. It has to be supported by the people here. Does that mean some good ideas don't make it? yeah, and that can suck. is it darwinian, you betcha, but that's the nature of the world. Same goes for all of us that propose a project, no matter who we are. No matter how much time or personal funds we invest, that's what it depends on. People have to find that project personally interesting in order to invest themselves into it. End of story. When you say: My path has been strewn with discouragement and difficulties that FMD did not care about. and another post in a thread that you deleted because of the tone, you're blaming the fans because your project isn't as successful as you want it to be. Stop. You're coming across as ungrateful to the people that have supported you. You should have realized from the poll you took earlier this year about the number to project to produce. If we wanted to complain about things not going exactly as planned, we could talk for many, many days, but this is a farscape fandom and as such all plans become Farscapean strangely. Nothing comes without hitches. Relax and adjust.

And furthermore, you're assuming that the rest of us don't go through the trial and error and setup that you did, which is a load of crap. We go through the exact same stages of set up, including praying that people call back, sounding like crap on the phone because you're not a professional in the area, but you're calling to get information in a realm you've never even worked in before, etc, etc. And then, take all that information and report it back to the population. And deal with people that have disagreements with your project and try to discuss the merits. You assume you're the only person who's ever gone through that or that "the fans" are the only people who go through it, and not the people that staff this website as well, and that's a load of crap. You assume that we don't get hostility and criticism thrown at us. Wrong. We all go through it. I'm not whining, I'm just telling you like it is. Running projects, doing cons, etc can be and usually are thankless jobs, but you know what?? Ya gotta do it cuz you love it, not because you're going to get thanks - otherwise you'll end up bitter. To quote Ben Browder: "And then you let people beat you up over it, because for the nine people who beat you up over it, somebody goes, 'Dude, I've never seen that anywhere. That was cool.' And you take it for the one guy, the one guy who actually understands why you did it."


We can't MAKE people get involved. People have to get involved because they want to, because you know what?? Projects are hard work and there's no getting around that. People have pm'd me and told me they wanted to help, and I've told them how they can.

Those of you that want to help, and it can't be financial, there are threads dedicated to you. there are ways you can help, don't think there aren't. The most important thing, and I don't know how many more times I'm going to say this during this campaign, is to scape the people around you. Use your email, use your mail, talk it up. Create the buzz. Because there are big things going on, sure, but to quote LOTR:

Even the smallest person can change the course of the future.

Let me paraphrase it to fit our situation -

Even the smallest thing you do (and I don't mean financial) can change the course of the future of Farscape.

and with that, i'm off to my training site to do psych testing on people with brain injuries...

[LT Garrix]

BG, don't worry I didn't take offense to you using the Cat Dreaming thread.

And don't worry about feeling like you can't post in the OTs. I could care less about post counts, dates of registry or any of that other stuff. If you have funny, moving, poignant story to share, go for it. If you need morale support for a bad day, go for it. Whatever suits your fancy, go for it.

Sometimes they get replies, sometimes they don't. :shrug: that's the way it goes.

I know some of the early posts irked me as they came off sounding like the OTs was the only reason people came and if there were rules they wouldn't be coming here anymore. To each his/her own.

I know that you are pouring your heart and sould in the Save Farscape project, just please remember those people are not saying anything bad about you or the project. Don't take it personally. As you've said there are many people working towards Saving Farscape. You are letting the words of a very small percentage get to you. It's not worth the stress. Remember this is just a handful of people. There are still many dedicated Scapers that are here and will continue to be here.

[Selena]

That's what make the OT's special to me..... :lol *the laughs ..the fun..the genuine empathy....in short ...THE PEOPLE..

....and some just like to sit topside and feel the sea breeze on their nether regions....but you know what...thats ok...Thats what makes it fun....BTW anyone got some Lotion...I'm starting to feel the wind-burn..... :swing:

I did warn you about being topside in that kilt http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif

[LiLOrion]

including praying that people call back.


I second that!

Hell, even if they got their family dog to call me back, at this point, I would talk to them! :D

[scrape_medic]

woof, woof woof, grrrrr, woof :puppy:

[grinner]

We're not about to bureaucratize (is that even a word?)
1 entry found for bureaucratize.
bu·reauc·ra·tize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (by-rkr-tz)
tr.v. bu·reauc·ra·tized, bu·reauc·ra·tiz·ing, bu·reauc·ra·tiz·es

To make into a bureaucracy or bring under bureaucratic control: “The failure of communication is builtor... bureaucratizedinto the legal system” (Anatole Broyard)

[LiLOrion]

Did that dog get into the catnip? Its running mighty fast.

[scrape_medic]

Its excited..

[Judith]

I just felt hurt that the OT was the most important section on this whole board that was the impression I got from the first posts here. Heck I occaissionally post here. Now I never felt I had to say this but honestly I usually feel like I'm coming into a clique here, in fact it was a least a year before I felt free enough to post here. Now into whole tonne of personal stuff since. I'm not a trusting person (there a said it, that was very hard to say) but usually there is always some drama or the other and i always end up having some kind of breakdown or burnout doing a Scape table and I'm sure other people have felt really stressed too (this is really hard for me to say and I'm crying as I type again Oh frell Inever thought I'd be crying at an FS board) It's VERY HARD FOR ME to open up to people. and well I'd always thought while I was stressing out or bursting out crying that at the very least you guys appreciate what I and tonnes of other scapers do. No one ever had to say it. I thought it was a team even but just reading that if the OT were gone for 2 days you won't even come to the FMD? I was like what!!! I was that mistaken about my 'fellow' scapers? Are they even my 'fellows' anymore? And like I've said for the thousandth time my experiences a T-Trek kind of soured me on con tables but until I read that post(s) I really thought we were a team. Now I don't even know anymore I really don't.




Bandana Girl,

Seems like we have all been misunderstanding each other. Sorry I took some of the things you said personally. I'm sorry that you're crying and upset...I wouldn't wish that on you.

There were a few posts where people said that if the mods were to get rid of the OT threads for a few days, and enact some stricter rules they would leave. I hope you know that's not most of us though. It's true we will miss the OT's while they are down. It's true we fight a lot here, and I do agree that something needs to be done about it. But we also support each other when we're going through hard times. But it'll only be down for a few days. We might grouse, but we'll get over it. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the rest of the board. I enjoy the Campaign Stratagizing section, even though I don't post there too much.

Also, just because I may be sad the OT's will be down for a few days doesn't mean I'm criticizing the decision of the admins and mods to do so. Something does need to be done about the fighting. I understand that. This place is cool, and you bet I'll miss it while it's down. But just because I say that doesn't mean I'm criticizing anyone. It sucks, but it has to be done, and I recognize that. Furthermore, I'd rather be in MY shoes, missing the OT's for a few days, than be in the shoes of Red or the other mods and admins, trying to figure out a good set of ground rules, and figuring out which threads to keep and which not to keep. That sounds like a lot of work, and frankly, I'm glad that I'm not in the position to deal with that. So I do have respect for the time and effort they're putting into the site.

Lets put our differences aside, okay? I hope you feel better. I hope you feel more comfortable in this section of the board. It'd be nice to talk to you. And maybe I'll see you in the Campaign section.

Jess

[B Sharp]

....We need some form of advisory group that is able to step in and have the help that the project coordinator needs. We need some type of support group who can help those working on projects overcome the difficulties and obstacles they encounter...

sounds like a great idea!

[DRD2001]

:hug: BG, you have my permission to go and get a big banana split sundae, relax and enjoy. I think I'll do the same on the way home today. In fact, I suggest everyone do that. I'm fine. I'll be fine. I'm just sorry that this is all getting blown out of proportion. We do have a unique community. Crazy and unique.

I count you among my friends, BG. Please don't let anything I've said get you down. It isn't what I intended. I know I'm just tired with work, home and other stuff. So I'll shut up now while I think I'm ahead.

But I am walking away from this with one idea. Maybe good, maybe bad. I'll talk to the mods and get their input first.

So go everyone and get your banana split.

[divinedaydreams]

sounds like a great idea!

I think its a good Idea too. I know with the PMU project I wasn't looking for help on getting homes or contacting PMU rescues. I wanted help getting the word spread. I wanted it on the front page. It has yet to happen although I was contacted recently about it ending up there months after it is over. I still have people PM me and write in the threads asking for when I will do it again. I just don't have homes for the horses and I refuse to raise money for foals that don't have homes first.

I also think that its untrue that the big names and support of the those in charge doesn't matter to a project. Face it we trust the mods to keep the board running. Mods have the power to endorse or not a project. Lack of interest by them makes the project seem not offical or unworthy. If it hadn't been for people like DRD 2001 and others I would have given up and three lovely foals, with a piece in a horse mag mentioning Farscape, and a whole group of students would not have been Scaped. Some may think that the project didn't have a wide enough influence but haven't we been saying Every casual view counts. If that is the case I think this project was well worth it. Hell Cyndi (foals' mommie) bought all the Farscape DVDs she could just so she could understand the names we picked and she has passed her new found love to others. Her son even had a Farscape birthday party.

I think this is the issue. When certain people lead a community but select what they openly support it makes things that aren't harder to do. I'm not saying you should go around giving yourself to every project but popping in especially after someone has asked for you in a thread or for front page stuff it would be nice for someone respond and follow through. I knew nothing about starting a project or how to go about getting it on the front page or even who the mods were at the time. It would have been nice for someone, anyone to say hey you need to talk to so and so.

I got the project done so please don't think I'm bitter. I'm not but if we want all to feel they can start a project and succeed then there has to be support. Its not happening right now.

Oh and I'm not beating up on the mods, not my intention. Just explaining my point of view and how I see things. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I understand they can't be everywhere and read every post. Not sure how to correct the problem except the advisor board sounds good. Those with experience can offer it to those who have none or little. It would certainly make things run smoother.

[B Sharp]

....I wanted help getting the word spread. I wanted it on the front page.

....Those with experience can offer it to those who have none or little.

I love the idea of having people with experience running a project (such as yourself) available for coaching or suggesting alternatives or methods. I was imaging a pool of people available to do that sort of thing, or a contact list of experienced people, something like that.

On the other hand, I think it's possible to put the mods in a no-win situation, because their support (as you said) might be intrepreted differently than others' support. If I were them, I wouldn't want to be put in the position of 'blessing' ideas or something, or being held accountable for the success or failure of projects because of their interest (or perceived lack of same). I think there's some history lessons already about this. There's a ton more of us than there are mods, and there's only so much time in the day, and they get to have opinions, too, right?

What if we just started a thread on this topic, and started a contact list (would have to be updated) of experienced project leaders that are willing to help coach or suggest ideas, and then people can post or PM that list as they want?

I guess bottom line I'm saying that if I choose to take on a project, I'm the one responsible, not the mods or anyone else- and if I need help, it would be great to know who to go to to get it.

IMO, of course!

[divinedaydreams]

On the other hand, I think it's possible to put the mods in a no-win situation, because their support (as you said) might be intrepreted differently than others' support. If I were them, I wouldn't want to be put in the position of 'blessing' ideas or something, or being held accountable for the success or failure of projects because of their interest (or perceived lack of same).

I think being a leader this comes with the territory.

I'm still no project expert but would certainly be willing to help people anyway I can. If you start the thread I will pop in. I guess it should start with like a 101 of how to get projects up and going. How to make sure that there is interest. Also if we could get someone to repost links or give names on who to contact to get things on the front page and the Yahoo to do list that would be great.

See debate and discussion can lead to wonderful things! ;)

[LiLOrion]

I'm not sure if anyone has any projects waiting in the wings cause they dont know how to begin, but I'll help with advice where I can.

Just remind me where the thread is once its started in case I miss it. :D

[waltersgirl]

let's turn this thread fully away from its purpose now, and make it about how much we that run the site suck and are personally responsible for every project that didn't get off the ground.

....We need some form of advisory group that is able to step in and have the help that the project coordinator needs. We need some type of support group who can help those working on projects overcome the difficulties and obstacles they encounter...

isn't that what the FWA is for? and i don't say that sarcastically, i say that genuinely. was that not why the FWA was created? to be a group of website leaders that exist to help folks fund and organize projects?


but popping in especially after someone has asked for you in a thread or for front page stuff it would be nice for someone respond and follow through.

we will post whatever info people get to us for the front page. in the case of the calendar, we repeatedly asked for a project article from the organizers to put up on the front page. they are in the thread still. we never got one until just recently. what are we supposed to do? send out hit squads to force people to write articles to promote their own projects?

it is unreasonable to expect us to cull every thread in the CS forum for projects, write an article ourselves, thereby possibly getting information wrong, and then post it on the front page of the site. we don't have the time, and quite frankly, if the project organizers are not willing to actively promote their own projects by utilizing the front page as a resource, i'm disinclined to do that for them.


Face it we trust the mods to keep the board running. Mods have the power to endorse or not a project. Lack of interest by them makes the project seem not offical or unworthy.

first, there is nothing "official" about us. "official" what? "official" wingnuts? i'd agree with that. this website is 3 co-owners and about 7 or 8 mods and about 10ish staffers.

newsflash: we weren't responsible for the success of the campaign.

the fans did that. it didn't all emanate out from wfs.com. it came from all over the world. we can put up to-do lists and project ideas all day long, but if no one actually goes out and physically does the work, ain't nothin' gonna happen. we didn't write all those letters. we didn't send ourselves all that money for stuff. fans did that. the only thing that's "official" is that the fans "officially rock". they made it happen. not us.

so just as we can't take credit for the victory, we don't get to be targetted for the blame either.

second, here's a question. when it's a "mod" project, who do we get to turn to for endorsement/support/blame? our projects are no different than anyone else's. they either get support or they don't. we're certainly not funding them ourselves. so if we manage to pull off a project, it's because it got supported by scapers.

and tell me, anyone, what should the criteria be for "mod support" of a project? if it's our fault that projects don't work, then what exactly are the guidelines we should be following?

i personally don't have a lot of disposable income. very much little, in fact. so my personal thought process revolves around "bang for buck".

as an admin here, it has been fully beaten into my brain that i can't just state my opinion because my opinion, being that i'm admin at FMD, carries so much more weight than the average person's. bullshit, i say, but that is apparently some people's perception and interpretation. (it's also the reason you'll find almost no posts by me in the CS forum. i don't like being used.)

that perception and interpretation being the case, i feel an additional burden on top of the existing burden of trying very hard to not waste people's incredibly hard earned money. so, when i personally look at a project, it has to be both cost-effective *and* be a project that tangibly helps spread the word of Farscape to as wide a target audience as possible.

you'll forgive me now if i'm done with this particular topic. being used as a punching bag for two years makes me disinclined to acquiesce to be so any further. (that means 'no'.)

[stellar]

Somebody's been watching Pirates of the Carribean.

[waltersgirl]

but why is the rum gone???????????????????????

[NYPinTA]

<hiccup> What rum?

[waltersgirl]

aw, see how you are?

[Kurt_eh]

All I see is the ceiling! :drinkin:

[grinner]

I thought you were thrown out the window Kurt....

[Kurt_eh]

Defenestration (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=defenestration) doesn't really work from my place. I'm on the ground floor...

[grinner]

so you can't be jettisoned from the bar?

[Kurt_eh]

Ah, I had assumed you were refering to nicola's nocturnal ninjas! :ninja:

[grinner]

no, I was discussing your talent for drinking too much ale and being thrown thru the windows of most refreshment establishments.

[Kurt_eh]

IT's only happened once, I swear. :innocent:

Ok, twice :rolleyes: :D

[waltersgirl]

All I see is the ceiling! :drinkin:

a man after my own heart.

wait.

don't overthink that.

[Kurt_eh]

:O

[grinner]

Kurt don't thunk... Kurt do drunk

[Kurt_eh]

doing my best bob 'n' doug
Take off, eh! I'm not as think as you drunk I am!

[Jul]

:roflmao:

[Shipscat]

Actually, that appears to not be the purpose of the FWA. Or at least, one of the main causes of dispute between the FWA and SF.com has been that we (The FWA) were told for the time that we were at this site that it was not our place to help with projects. We are aware, however, that there were people who felt that they needed advice and that there are such people now. For instance, the one person that Selena was referring to that was helpful is an FWA member.

It is quite possible for anyone to run a project on their own..or with two people. For instance, Aeryncrichton and I did the PBS project with no help from the admins here, except for front page coverage, which we're grateful for. BUT-I've been in the FWA from the beginning, I know how to apply for help, what's likely to be funded, had the contacts to get discounts and freebies for the project, knew a wonderful artist to ask for help with graphics, and am comfortable with writing scripts and making the contact with PBS and organizing on my own. I am in no way discounting all the people who gave goods, money, time and expertise to the project, but not everyone who might want to start a project has the experience and resources I did.

Not everyone is even comfortable with doing the writeups for the front page without help or at least beta-ing, and it does make a difference whether or not something goes out on the email list, or whether someone's aware of the other websites, in terms of how many people can be reached with their idea. People need help with distribution if they're considering a fund raiser, and that should come up *early* during the discussion, not after the product is made. Another thing to consider is a fundraiser's appeal-is it widespread or confined to one site? Can it go beyond even the Scaper community? What it would take to make a profit off of a fundraiser should be carefully considered, as it was with the cookbooks.

Many things can go into deciding whether a project is worth funding, including bang for the buck..but also whether it's a worthy thing to do on it's own, like donating to the library or military or PBS or saving horsies, or whether it's something that's likely to get secondary publicity, like the Save the Horses Project. Also a project might just have use as a fundraiser.

Usually if a Scaper has the initiative to start something and keep going, it's worth supporting. Only some people have that much initiative. There are things right now that are only being pulled by a few people, like the amazing con coverage that the Ohioscapers and Southeast Scapers are doing. What we need to do is ask what we can do to help-how we can turn a project into a success, because we should all be pulling together.

And yes, I agree that that's not on topic for this thread at all, but I have strong opinions on this subject, and did not want people to feel that this was an area that the FWA was responsible for and had fallen down on. I do think that we should be working together, and many members of the FWA are good resources (as are people who've run projects that aren't in the FWA, like LilOrion, Divinedaydreams, etc :)) and we are very willing to help to the best of our abilities and whatever benefits experience provides.

[waltersgirl]

doing my best bob 'n' doug
Take off, eh! I'm not as think as you drunk I am!

that's so ironically funny right this minute. i'm currently talking to my production designer boss. he's in TO and that's one of our silly running jokes. he jokingly calls home soviet canuckistan.

[waltersgirl]

Not everyone is even comfortable with doing the writeups for the front page without help or at least beta-ing, and it does make a difference whether or not something goes out on the email list,

all they would have to do is ask. ask for it to go out on the list. ask for help with the copy. we've had plenty of folks, ourselves included, provide only the bare facts and have someone else write the copy.

eta: were told for the time that we were at this site that it was not our place to help with projects.

you were most certainly NOT told that. you were told that the purpose of the FWA was not to tell people what to do. difference.

and this is not going to turn into yet another FWA debate. that horse is beyond dead and currently sitting in a can on the grocery store shelves as dog food.

[Mike0812]

but why is the rum gone???????????????????????

Ah, Captain Jack Sparrow, a trully insightful man who had his priorities straight..."raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!" followed and interspersed with massive amounts of gettin' plastered :drinkin: :D

Indeed, why IS the rum gone? Alas, we may never know :(...

Here's one for you Cap'n :beer: Cheers!

[waltersgirl]

Ah, Captain Jack Sparrow, a trully insightful man who had his priorities straight...

Indeed, why IS the rum gone? Alas, we may never know :(...

Here's one for you Cap'n :beer: Cheers!

aye, i'll drink to the Captain as well. :beer:

and speaking of Jack, i think i'll pop that dvd in right now.;)

as to the rum, i believe that it's gone because NYPinTA drank it all! :eh:

[LiLOrion]

that horse is beyond dead and currently sitting in a can on the grocery store shelves as dog food.


Umm, EWWWWW!

Throws her dog's cans of dog food in the trash. Is glad tomorrow is trash day and dog would rather eat people food anyway. :)

[waltersgirl]

sorry Lil.;) here, have a dunkin' donuts.

[BlackThorn]

Okay I have something constructive to add regarding write ups that could hopefully open things up a little more easily for those who want them for a project and would make for less work for the mods . . .

What if we had a thread in I Have a Plan that was for the purpose of A.) requesting a write up for a project and B.) requesting a beta read for a write up one wants posted. There are people who have new item posting priviledges who aren't mods, and there are people who have more experience writing than others. These people could help the others get the write ups done, or if the people just want to make sure their write up looks good, they can go there for help.

If you want a write up done for a project, post the request there and include all the details of the project you want included along with a link. If you want a beta read of your write up, post it there asking for a beta read.

The reason I'm throwing this out is because I know not everyone has access to everything, and I think something like this could help get things done for people. But it working would rely on whether or not those with experience or access are willing to help the others out by going into the thread, finding the requests, and helping.

First help offer, if we want to do this -- I can beta write ups for people and add them as news items if needed. Right now, I can't commit to doing full write ups myself, as I'm already stretched thin as it is with work and the Scaper stuff I'm already working on. Maybe in a month or so, but not now.

Ideas, thoughts?

[Red]

Well, I'm glad this has gone so completely off topic to bashing us. Nice.

I'm not interested in debating the FWA yet again. If you want to spread lies and rumors about us, Shipscat, knock yourself out. I'm so beyond caring about your petty drama it's not funny.

But for those people who might actually believe your dren, let me just address this little bit and then say something about the purpose of the site and the abilities of the people who run this site.

Actually, that appears to not be the purpose of the FWA. Or at least, one of the main causes of dispute between the FWA and SF.com has been that we (The FWA) were told for the time that we were at this site that it was not our place to help with projects.
The FWA was never told it was not their place to help with the projects. In fact, it is and always was one of the main purpose of the group. The problem came, when you, shipscat, wanted the FWA to start dictating how projects would run, and I told you that you would not do that at this site. I told you it was not your place to tell people how to run their projects. If people wanted help they could go to the FWA, but you did not, and were not going to step into people's projects on this site and start taking them over. You never ever seemed to get that point. There's a difference between support, and horning in. Which was why we left the FWA -- it lost it's purpose and wanted to set the "rules" for the campaign. That's bullshit and wasn't going to happen at this site.

And, you know, if anybody wants to ever know the whole truth of the bullshit the FWA became, I can open up that forum to the public and they can read the meeting chat transcripts where people spent hours arguing about petty things and taking votes on whether or not to take votes. Shall we do that? Perhaps we should if you're going to be spreading such blatant disinformation and ... well, hell, outright, baldfaced lies. We do have a right to defend ourselves against such spurious accusations.

And now I'm done replying to you, shipscat. I've put you on ignore. Just so you know.

As for those of you who think that because we don't endorse a project it doesn't fly, here's the thing. This project has always been about the fans. The individuals and what they can do. This site exists as a resource, it doesn't exist for you to come and say "here's this idea, make it happen." The making it happen part is up to you. Some of you may not like that, but what, exactly, would you like me to do? There are so many projects, it is impossible for WFS.com to help with every single one. We have to prioritize. There's no project that's more official than any others, there are just projects that we work on as individuals and the site fund manager collects funds for.

WFS.com, as a resource, can help everybody in certain ways. We don't have a general fund, so we can't help with money, by all means, go to the FWA for that. I have always said that if the FWA chose to be, they could continue to be useful. Which is why I have no problem posting articles for the FWA on our site. However, simply because we can't give you money, that doesn't stop individuals from putting up a paypal account and raising funds themselves. Sometimes projects don't fly because they don't have popular support, and there's nothing I can do about that. If your project is tanking, no matter how worthy you think it might be, I can't force people to support your project.

What WFS.com can and will do for any project is provide space for you on this board to discuss the idea with the 6,000 other people registered here, we can post articles, and send information to the mailing list. If you're not comfortable writing a story, or writing one with out a beta, find a beta or find a writer to write the story for you. All you have to do is ask. If you can't ask, I can't help you.

How many threads are on this board? How many projects? Despite whatever anybody might whisper in your ears, I do truly want to help every single person. I want to help every single project, no matter what I might personally think about it. My personal beliefs on a project aren't important if the majority of folks think the project is worthy, and likewise, if I think a project is great, if the support of the majority isn't there, the project won't fly. Even WFS.com special projects. Take a look at Mickie's bookmarks project, she's having a hell of a time raising funds, I think it's a fantastic idea, and yet people aren't catching on. What can I do? I can bump the thread, I can stump for it when I have time, I can hope it flies, I can post articles about the project, but it's always, always, always going to be up to the individual to support a project and if there aren't enough individuals there's nothing I or the site can do.

What I hear here is a lot of frustration that some projects aren't taking off, and thus somehow it's the site's fault because we ... I don't know. I'm getting mixed signals. We're not allowed to have open opinions on projects because if we do one way or the other we're either forcing people to march in lock-step with us by apparently deeming one project worthy over others, or we're trying to crush a project by disagreeing with it. We don't want that. Everybody is here for the same goal and the same purpose. We all have projects we're working on and ultimately, if they all move towards support of Farscape, none is more worthy than any other.

We are all busy. All of us at this site. Each and every person has a number of different demands on their time. I'm no different. There are over 6,000 registered members of this board, there are over 900 registered at Kansas, over 1500 registered at Farscapeworld. Thats a lot of hands to help with a project. Find them, get them to help, they're all there. Make them excited. It's hard work, I am worn out from trying myself, but we're almost there. Some people are just going to have to take the initiative, take control of their projects, find the hands to help, use the resources that we can provide, use the resources that other groups can provide, use whatever you can and make the project happen. That is your job. It's not my job to give you the imprimatur for everything you want to do -- you don't want that and I don't want that, we are in accord.

So ... to sum up ... kick yourselves in the rears, get up, take up your work, get to it, dragoon your friends and fellow scapers into helping you, and MAKE. IT. HAPPEN. This is the campaign of the individual, the ideas of the individuals, the work and sweat and passion of the group. If you've got an idea for a project, then make it happen. If you need help, ask for help, find the help, don't wait for help to come to you because it won't. And if you won't do any of that, and your idea flounders, then you don't get to whine, because you didn't do what you needed to do to make it happen, and you don't get to blame me, this site, or the rest of the Scaper community.

We've got two months to make miracles happen. I'm sick of the backbiting and the waste of time and energy things like this have become. I'm done with you naysayers, I'm done with you whiners, I'm done with you whose only contribution is to undercut others and to argue, I'm done with it all. I have more important things to do. We all do.

Scapers aren't whiners. Scapers are doers. Don't make Rockne, DK, and Brian believe differently.

[Red]

What if we had a thread in I Have a Plan that was for the purpose of A.) requesting a write up for a project and B.) requesting a beta read for a write up one wants posted. There are people who have new item posting priviledges who aren't mods, and there are people who have more experience writing than others. These people could help the others get the write ups done, or if the people just want to make sure their write up looks good, they can go there for help.

If you want a write up done for a project, post the request there and include all the details of the project you want included along with a link. If you want a beta read of your write up, post it there asking for a beta read.
That's a great idea. And if we need it, I can give more people access to posting articles and the like. Why don't you take this over to the "I Have a Plan" forum? I'm about to start cleaning this one.

[waltersgirl]

If you want a write up done for a project, post the request there and include all the details of the project you want included along with a link.

the downside of that though, is that it again puts the burden of seeking on us, and the assignment of blame on us if someone misses a request in the thread. we have to check the thread. we have to check with each other in case someone else might have already checked the thread, etc. as DoA just posted in the thread that B Sharp started in CS a bit ago, she can't always check that thread and people are better off pm'ing her. which brings me back to my original point. just coming to us directly and asking.

how about the alternate of us posting a stickied thread with a "who has access" list? people can then pm whomever they need directly?

[scrape_medic]

Call me dumb, but what exactly is a stickied thread?

[BlackThorn]

the downside of that though, is that it again puts the burden of seeking on us, and the assignment of blame on us if someone misses a request in the thread. we have to check the thread. we have to check with each other in case someone else might have already checked the thread, etc. as DoA just posted in the thread that B Sharp started in CS a bit ago, she can't always check that thread and people are better off pm'ing her. which brings me back to my original point. just coming to us directly and asking.

how about the alternate of us posting a stickied thread with a "who has access" list? people can then pm whomever they need directly?

That works too. I'd add notes to all the names on which duties their available for, which would require checking with those who have access and asking them.

I'm just trying to find a solution which could bring the help people need regarding this specific thing (write ups) in a way which would create less work for the already overworked mods. And since I can do beta readings right now, I threw the offer out.

[B Sharp]

how about the alternate of us posting a stickied thread with a "who has access" list? people can then pm whomever they need directly?

great idea!

[Red]

Call me dumb, but what exactly is a stickied thread?

They're the threads stuck to the top of the forums. :aok:

[Red]

That works too. I'd add notes to all the names on which duties their available for, which would require checking with those who have access and asking them.
If we've got volunteers to do writeups or betas, I can give some greater access to posting articles on the site.

[waltersgirl]

I'm just trying to find a solution which could bring the help people need regarding this specific thing (write ups) in a way which would create less work for the already overworked mods. And since I can do beta readings right now, I threw the offer out.

Scaper makin' it happen. :aok:

[scrape_medic]

See I knew I was dumb, but then I hardly ever use the forum, I just keep wearing out the new post button...........*must go through the forums more often*

[BlackThorn]

New discussion thread for this, as requested: http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?p=532854#post532854

[waltersgirl]

See I knew I was dumb, but then I hardly ever use the forum, I just keep wearing out the new post button...........*must go through the forums more often*

funny, i don't even use that function. i saw you guys all talking about it, er, yesterday? i just go into each forum and look for what's new in bold.

[Mickie]

Take a look at Mickie's bookmarks project,

Yes, please take a look at Mickie's bookmarks project, it's right HERE (http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26722).

oops. I seem to have wandered off topic........

[waltersgirl]

Yes, please take a look at Mickie's bookmarks project, it's right HERE (http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26722).

oops. I seem to have wandered off topic........

wow. them staffers man. out of control. :flee:

[Mickie]

wow. them staffers man. out of control. :flee:

:mischief:

[Kathleen]

I just wanted to say that I will miss this forum while it's down. I understand the need to prune and clean up the forum. I hate that people have become so divided and so nasty towards others that, only a couple of months ago, were getting along fine. It's sad to see friendships so strained and, at times, ended because of such pettiness. :(

I would hope that most of the threads remain. I'm sure they will. :) As for politics, I do see some occasional conversations that are very insightful and productive. For the most part, though, they almost always turn nasty. I have nothing for those. If I don't see another one, I don't think it would bother me too much. I thoroughly enjoy this site. It's still a bit intimidating to go to some of the other forums. I feel like I"m in over my head in the I Have A Plan forum. Best analogy? I feel like a tourist who has gone to Vegas and walked into one of the casinos for the first time..... very overwhelmed. I know it's not intentional on the admins or mods or older members of this board. I guess it's just me, and I'm still trying to find my comfort zone. I do spend most of my time in the OT forum. I enjoy it immensely, and I'm curious to see what it's going to look like once it's been trimmed up.

May I make one small request? Could you please not delete the Tables, Dances... thread? I know that there aren't very many that post in that particular thread, but the ones that have posted there have worked very hard with the ongoing story in there. I'm not even sure if requests like that can be made, but I did want to ask. No offense intended to anyone.

And thanks for the hard work to the mods and admins. I wouldn't want your job!!!!

[StarsGoBlue]

wow. them staffers man. out of control.



um, i think it's more like a Scaper, makin' it happen... :P

Yay Mickie! :highfive:

[grinner]

this is silly... KEGS are on me.

Got Blue over in that corner...

Heiniken is over there... Molsen's on the main stage...

There's Cap'n Morgan over by the bar... and Jager all around.

[Jul]

jager... nice!! Thank you :beer:

[grinner]

Got some RumpleMeisters going...

[Kathleen]

Rumple???? awwwww yeahhhhh!!!!!! :signbravo

[BlackThorn]

:hork:

[grinner]

Rumple???? awwwww yeahhhhh!!!!!! :signbravo
also known as Screaming Nazi's...

bar's open.

[waltersgirl]

I feel like I"m in over my head in the I Have A Plan forum. Best analogy? I feel like a tourist who has gone to Vegas and walked into one of the casinos for the first time..... very overwhelmed.

let you in on a secret? so do we. ;)

let you in on some history....and this goes back to that "big name" dren and just makin' it happen.

the 3 of us that started this site were not in Farscape fandom prior to the cancellation. avid fans of the show, not in any way part of its fandom.

jul sent red the infamous email saying that the show being cancelled had been announced in that chat with Ricky, and DK and Ben. red put up a bare bones html page a few hours later for those of us on our existing, very small, board who were Farscape fans.

72 hours later all hell broke loose. that's it. that's all. we weren't even in the damned fandom. the fans made it happen. this place, for some inexplicable reason, became the place they used to make it happen at.

we don't have some plan guiding us. we're making this up as we go. just like everybody else. some stuff works, some doesn't. you try to fix what doesn't, ask for help when you need it, and keep at it.


Could you please not delete the Tables, Dances... thread? I know that there aren't very many that post in that particular thread, but the ones that have posted there have worked very hard with the ongoing story in there. I'm not even sure if requests like that can be made, but I did want to ask. No offense intended to anyone.

we're not going to delete that stuff. it's fun, it's active, it's Scapers having a good time. ;)

[waltersgirl]

this is silly... KEGS are on me.

Got Blue over in that corner...

Heiniken is over there... Molsen's on the main stage...

There's Cap'n Morgan over by the bar... and Jager all around.


aw...thanks dude. :beer:

[grinner]

we don't have some plan guiding us. we're making this up as we go. just like everybody else. some stuff works, some doesn't. you try to fix what doesn't, ask for help when you need it, and keep at it.


sorta like... synergy?

[Jul]

nice phrase, grinner... that's how I'd describe it... :D

[grinner]

so... we could be called... symbiotes who have joined together in confederation of scapers...

[waltersgirl]

sorta like... synergy?

yeah...synergy on crack.

stupid Farscape.

[Red]

sorta like... synergy?
Hey, yeah, good one. :aok:

[Mike0812]

we don't have some plan guiding us. we're making this up as we go. just like everybody else. some stuff works, some doesn't. you try to fix was doesn't, ask for help when you need it, and keep at it.


Sounds like a Crichton plan to me ;)


as to the rum, i believe that it's gone because NYPinTA drank it all! :eh:

:eh: aaarr, hic, rrrrrrr...bloody, hic, pirates! :drunk: :thud:...now where wuz, hic dat...:thud:...opin bar o', hic grinnehrrrzz 'gain...:D

[grinner]

we are throwing off ideas in scintillation

[StarsGoBlue]

so... we could be called... symbiotes who have joined together in confederation of scapers...

heh. that reminds me of DS9 and Dax... and i'm eating mu shu pork and thinking about host organisms living inside my body. yay. :P

[Jul]

Sounds like a Crichton plan to me ;)

Seriously, you have no idea how many times most things go Farscape on us...

[waltersgirl]

Sounds like a Crichton plan to me ;)


dude. you.have.no.idea. :lol

[waltersgirl]

Julia? are you in my head again?

[Jul]

of course :devil: :elol: bwahahahahahhah

[grinner]

the ideas of scapers are coruscate in their magnificance

[waltersgirl]

heh. that reminds me of DS9 and Dax... and i'm eating mu shu pork and thinking about host organisms living inside my body. yay. :P

mmmmmmm, host organisms.

when i was a little kid, mac and cheese was my fave dish/meal/snack/side dish/food group. i used to think that the mac was little building blocks of me and there were workers inside constantly putting me together, and that's how i got growed up.
/left field.

[grinner]

was it the cheesiest though?

[Kathleen]

mmmmmm.. cheesy

[StarsGoBlue]

nice sig line there, grinner... ;) and i think it's the perfect color choice... kinda like green m&m's :P

[grinner]

had to be added... :D

[Mickie]

had to be added... :D

Absolutely....

Anything around here that a non-beer drinker might enjoy???

[StarsGoBlue]

Anything around here that a non-beer drinker might enjoy???

root beer floats! :D :beer:

[grinner]

Absolutely....

Anything around here that a non-beer drinker might enjoy???
yeah, there are some virgin mary's somewhere near the bar... and some virgin mimosas over there as well

[Mickie]

root beer floats! :D :beer:

Works for me, might artract the kids though (hides her float from nosey 10 year olds). :beer:

[BlackThorn]

Back with Guinness. :beer:

[Kathleen]

yeah, there are some virgin mary's somewhere near the bar...


So, should we .... cross.... them? ;)

[Mickie]

yeah, there are some virgin mary's somewhere near the bar... and some virgin mimosas over there as well

actually, it doesn't have to be non-acoholic, I just don't like drinks made with malt :shrug:

[Kathleen]

How about a crown/7-up? Or better yet... crown straight? :D

[BlackThorn]

And I brought more rum and some pina colada mix!

*guards the rum*

[StarsGoBlue]

whisky! *pounds bar*

[grinner]

So, should we .... cross.... them? ;)
hahaha... haven't you had a bloody mary without the alcohol... tomato juice sounds... plain.

[Kathleen]

I don't like tomato juice, so I don't like Bloody Mary's.

I DO however love margaritas.... made with blue acaba tequila.... makes you all :hypno: :yum:

[Mike0812]

I got Vodka, some more Rum (cuz you can never have enough ;) ), some Oozo, Baileys and a bit of Amaretto :D

[trinamick]

Mustn't forget the Crown & Mt. Dew - come on now, people! Priorities!

[grinner]

hey, it is a fully stocked bar... I raided some... uh... well... hmm... yeah. and used the proceeds to stock the bar... :D:innocent:

[Kathleen]

In other words, you snurched and procured the items necessary? ;)

[Mike0812]

I believe the term is "borrowed"...or something ;)

[grinner]

hey, I'll return it... someday... or something. :P

[Kathleen]

You don't think they'll want it back when we're through.... do you?

If so, then it's gonna get MESSY!! :hork:

[grinner]

it's the money... I was talking about...

[waltersgirl]

nice sig line there, grinner... ;) and i think it's the perfect color choice... kinda like green m&m's :P

imitates Claud upon seeing the BondiYeti tshirts for the first time.

dude. :lol

[grinner]

thank you... thank you... :D:D:D:D

[waltersgirl]

bartender! more beer please.

[grinner]

http://beerpictures.net/beer-pictures-2.jpg

[Mike0812]

bartender! more beer please.

ask and ye shall receive :beer:...and :beer:...just in case ;)

[divinedaydreams]

Ok now you talk OT.

The whole projects was brought up because people kept saying how the "I Have A Plan" forumn was not being used enough. People weren't getting active or supporting because they were all over in the OT. NOT that that is true but it was the general gist of some posts.

AGAIN - I don't think the mods can be in ever thread or support every project. I did offer to help and support the idea of a thread here on FMD were they can get help even if it just a link to FWA. Which I have heard very little. FMD is my home and I rarely visit any other site Farscape related. I like the one shop stopping that I get here. Call me the Walmart Superstore girl if you like.

I think I stated I support the mods several times in the past and present and respect the job they do. It isn't fair they are put in a position they are but they are there. You are not responsible for the pass or fail of any project. But you are leaders and those of us who need help on things turn to you, unfair again, yes. Since the "I Have A Plan" was brought up I thought I would support Selena's need to show a little fustration. I haven't had much to do with her project, but her wanting a way of making it easier on newbies and those less knowledgable about projects is a great idea! Do I expect all the mods to do everything, HELL NO. To much and definitly not enough hours in the day to begin with.

I was not and still am not mod bashing but I don't think this is more off topic then drinking. Although I wish I could have one right about now. I'll go to the new thread now before people get even more upset. I really don't like stirring pots but when its an important issue like this I think it should be addressed not passed off as OT.

[grinner]

http://www.westvillepub.com/grafix/tap.jpg

[grinner]

this is what I am drinking...
http://www.beerlabels.com/labels/full/beerlabels.com-02474.jpg

[who45]

I could use some of that now..:( a lot maybe :lol

[StarsGoBlue]

:eh: You're drinking the label? :g2f:

[grinner]

:eh: You're drinking the label? :g2f:
:nana:http://members.gcnet.net/kierstead/1b340f00.jpg

[Mike0812]

:eh: You're drinking the label? :g2f:

Sometimes, desperate times call for desperate measures...

[LT Garrix]

Mmmm....beer. I should post a picture of our collection of empty beer bottles.

[Red]

I really don't like stirring pots but when its an important issue like this I think it should be addressed not passed off as OT.
I don't think any of us passed off the subject as OT, in fact I addressed it at length. But ... I don't want to argue about it.

If there's a problem, let us know, that's not hard. If you see a problem that needs to be fixed, bring it up for others to help fix.

I haven't had much to do with her project, but her wanting a way of making it easier on newbies and those less knowledgable about projects is a great idea!
It is a great idea. So how do we do it? That's my point. It's great to bring up ideas, but how do we make them happen? And by we I mean everybody here, not just mods/admin or users, I mean everybody.

I don't want these sorts of ideas lost in this thread, was also my point. So it's best to take this to the other forum, where it can be seen and discussed. Which is what Blackthorn and B Sharp did.

So, by all means, get the ideas out there, and find people and have discussions about solving these problems or making difficult situations easier.

[divinedaydreams]

It wasn't you Red but thanks for responding. Sorry I couldn't let it go. Please everyone drink a Cider for me. Ugh I could use one.

[stlscape]

...I did offer to help and support the idea of a thread here on FMD were they can get help even if it just a link to FWA. Which I have heard very little. FMD is my home and I rarely visit any other site Farscape related. I like the one shop stopping that I get here. Call me the Walmart Superstore girl if you like...
Just an FYI, the QUICK LINKS to Projects, Addresses and Other Information thread stickied to the top of the I Have A Plan forum has links to lots of stuff, including one for the FWA site/"To Be Continued" fund.

[grinner]

Cider...
http://www.wedowed.com/cider.jpg

[divinedaydreams]

Yep guess I'll have to settle for the non alcholic version for now. Thanks grinner.

[divinedaydreams]

Just an FYI, the QUICK LINKS to Projects, Addresses and Other Information thread stickied to the top of the I Have A Plan forum has links to lots of stuff, including one for the FWA site/"To Be Continued" fund.

Ok I know I'm going to regret this but I guess I'll make the 101 to Getting a Project to succeed thread. Thanks stlscape I'll look through the stuff and make a check list of sorts people can use. Won't be fool proof but at least my money will be were my mouth is.

Anyone with links or whatever please post them. May take me some time as I'm still doing the temp thing (ok so maybe I should be in bed instead of here but can't help myself) but give me about a week or so. Feel free to PM my butt if I don't get it moving.

[Kathleen]

Will your butt respond?

:innocent:

[Jul]

ddd - http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?p=532794#post532794
would you like to add to it?? feel free :D

[Selena]

Just an FYI, the QUICK LINKS to Projects, Addresses and Other Information thread stickied to the top of the I Have A Plan forum has links to lots of stuff, including one for the FWA site/"To Be Continued" fund.

With all due respect, when one is in the throes of a project with deadlines looming, one does not have the inclination, time or the energy to wade through dozens and sometimes hundreds of threads and posts in the hope of finding just what one needs for a specific project or part of one.
As someone already stated earlier, it can be most discouraging when one posts a request for specific information or help and it is either overlooked or no-one replies to it.
The thread that was started today, about resources and some basic guidelines is excellent. I wish it had been there months ago, but I am grateful it's there now to help others.
I would also like to thank the many people who have offered excellent suggestions and ideas in this thread.

[divinedaydreams]

Will your butt respond?

:innocent:

Its getting nightly baths so its breath shouldn't smell to bad.

(sorry couldn't resist :cool: , but yah even if its to say I'm working on it)

[Kathleen]

HAHAHAHAHA... :hug: ddd ...

[divinedaydreams]

ddd - http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?p=532794#post532794
would you like to add to it?? feel free :D


I'll be over as I can't stand it when people complain loudly (pretty sure I fit that description) but don't do anything to fix the problem (I refuse to not help ;) )

[Judith]

I show up late for the drinking? How uncharacteristic.

Bar still open?

[Kathleen]

*hic* ... It's over ... umm... there, I think. It's a bit blurry in here tonight. :hypno:

[divinedaydreams]

Hell its only 735PM my time it better not be closed I want to watch drunk people.

[grinner]

I show up late for the drinking? How uncharacteristic.

Bar still open?
open til the Mini starts...

[Kathleen]

*Passes ddd some apple cider. :D

[stellar]

http://satwww.epfl.ch/bar/bieres/bouteilles/images/fin_du_monde.gif

:)

[grinner]

the fine world?

[divinedaydreams]

I'll have to get some tomorrow. I am in no condition to leave the house. Guess I'll have to stick to water for now. Better for me anyway.

[stellar]

the fine world?

The end of the world.

[divinedaydreams]

Oops missed the passed. Thought it read get some. Ok now I need to get my glasses.

[grinner]

D'oh

any good? what does it taste like?

[divinedaydreams]

Yes I'm a very bad girl.

[Mike0812]

open til the Mini starts...

Sweet, though my liver may not make it :D

[Judith]

open til the Mini starts...


That's the best bar ever!

[stellar]

D'oh

any good? what does it taste like?

It's the real 'champagne of beers'. Golden Ale. Triple fermintation. 18 Proof. Canadian (Quebecian) made. Named in honor of the great explorers who, when they reached the Americas, thought they'd come to the end of the world.

It's fabulous.

[Judith]

Sweet, though my liver may not make it :D


Talk about a new project. We need to scape em really young. Since wg plans on drinking nonstop after the mini...and now we're all drinking all the way through the mini...it'd be best to recruit some young livers...er...viewers.

(Yay organ farms!)

[grinner]

That's the best bar ever!
of course it is... It's http://www.randomdice.com/mundensbar/images/mundenlogga.gif

[Kathleen]

Munden's Bar? Where is that located?

Hey, stellar... meet ya at Pat O's? I'll buy the first 2 hurricanes.... :D

[stellar]

You got it! :aok:

Just don't drink through the straws. That's how you get f**ked up... like a football bat.

[Mike0812]

Talk about a new project. We need to scape em really young. Since wg plans on drinking nonstop after the mini...and now we're all drinking all the way through the mini...it'd be best to recruit some young livers...er...viewers.

(Yay organ farms!)

Yes, harvest a new batch of organ don, uh, ummm, I mean viewers...yes, "viewers"...interesting :elol:

[Saajak]

:walks in with her wine cooler:

Party time! Excellent!

[Kathleen]

You got it! :aok:

Just don't drink through the straws. That's how you get f**ked up... like a football bat.

I always drink the first through the straw... After that, I sip on them... Fast on getting a buzz, but slow on getting ripped. ;)

Yes, there is a method to my madness. As soon as I figure out what it is, I'll let ya know. In the meantime, just hang on and enjoy the ride. :cool:

[grinner]

Munden's Bar? Where is that located?


Cynosure... by way of the Eternity Road.


And remember... No TOURBOTS

[grinner]

:walks in with her wine cooler:

Party time! Excellent!
no outside beverages allowed... gotta pour it out and get a free one from us :D

[grinner]

Alcohol and Calculus don't mix...

please don't drink and derive.

[Saajak]

Alcohol and Calculus don't mix...

please don't drink and derive.


:rolleyes:

The wine cooler didn't taste that great anyway. How about a Bacardi coke?

[grinner]

come on... that's a funny.

[Kathleen]

I giggled at it.... but I"m on medication sooooo... :shrug:

[Saajak]

come on... that's a funny.

It sounds like a joke my crackpot of a Calc teacher would have told. The teacher that only liked Fridays because Monday was right around the corner and idolized MacGuyver to the point he often imitated him in class.

[waltersgirl]

It wasn't you Red but thanks for responding. Sorry I couldn't let it go. Please everyone drink a Cider for me. Ugh I could use one.

here, have a :beer:

[waltersgirl]

With all due respect, when one is in the throes of a project with deadlines looming, one does not have the inclination, time or the energy to wade through dozens and sometimes hundreds of threads and posts in the hope of finding just what one needs for a specific project or part of one.

absolutely true. lucky for us, stlscape has been good enough to keep all the relevant links and projects updated in the very first post of the thread. they've been there, helpfully enough, since March.

[bubblez]

Alcohol and Calculus don't mix...

please don't drink and derive.

nice... very nice... Here ya go!

[Red]

closed because everything that needed to be said on the original topic of this thread has been said. Other subjects brought up here, can be discussed elsewhere.