TJohn v. Crais

[Otterchick]

Hi, I'm rather new to the board - but far from new to Farscape.

Anyway, I just thought I'd pose a question to all of you who don't visit the Scifi.com Farscape board.

~This is my first attempt to post a Poll, so please bear with me.

My answer to my above poll would be Crais.

I must admit I'm a Shipper through and through, but as mentioned on the Scifi board, Crais had grown in such ways as a character ... it made it much more tragic for me. As much as I cried when TJohn died in Aeryn's arms - she did have a 2nd chance with the John on Moya.

Anyway, always interested in other's viewpoints. Thanks!

[Lost Like Me]

I went with TJohn. Both were tragic, but TJohn's impacted me more because I had more of an emotional attachment to him. Plus it impacted Aeryn more, and that made it worse.

[LT Garrix]

I had to pick Crais, because of the character growth. Here was a man who back in the Premiere said "I don't care about casualties" but now is concerned about destroying the carrier in such a way that almost everyone should be able to escape.

Even before TJohn's sacrifice he had grown. Everyone was telling him to run from the Scarrens in IP, but he decided to stay to use Talyn to lure the Scarrens into position to be destroyed by John's wormhole weapon.

John has always been the man in the white hat, the hero. You always expected him to do what was necessary to protect the universe from wormholed. Crais, in the beginnint you always thought was out for number one, himself. This was confirmed when he stole Talyn.

But, in Ugly Truth you begin to see hints that he is changing. Well, Out of Their Minds, too, I think that one came first. You see that he doesn't want Talyn to shoot first and ask questions later. In fact, he is trying to remove Talyn's offensive weapons. Of course, he's not trusted because of his past.

Yeah, Crais is my POV character, but his sacrifice seems more significant because it's out of character. I know people that really started to re-evaluate Crais after his actions in ITLD and admitted they could see the changes in the season 3 eps.

[fandom]

I would say Crais sacrifice was greater because he knew what he was doing and that there was no escape possible, on the other hand John may not have known until it was already too late.

But as for impact I have to go with John's death, not because of him but for the desperation in Aeryn's face.

Claudia is an amazing actress, isn't she?

[LT Garrix]

See for TJohn not only do you expect John to do something heroic, but he didn't have any choice. He could have let the bomb go off on the planet, but that wouldn't have accomplished anything. He had to shut it down and radiate himself. From that point on, he knew he was going to die and he was wanted something good to come from his death. While still a noble death, this doesn't make the sacrifice as significant to me.

And oh, yes, the look on Claudia's face, she did a wonderful job conveying the torment Aeryn was feeling. She is amazing and it's showcased even more in The Choice.

But that wasn't really the question was it? It's which made a bigger impact on each of us as an individual. That'll probably be more skewed towards which character you empathize with more.

[aerynmoon]

I went with Crais, too. I agree that with John, you *expect* him to put himself out there for others (and I kept thinking, "This is sad, but there *is* another John, after all"). Crais was never one to be selfless. He went from power-hungry Peacekeeper who lived by the rules to a renegade who had to look out for himself to someone who finally understood the power of friendship and teamwork...despite myself, I grew to like him. That he did what he did proved that he'd really grown as a person, and so for me, his sacrifice was that much more poignant. I bawled my eyes out during ITLD! I kept thinking no no no....he'll survive somehow....he has to....so will Talyn....but no. :cry2: :bawl:

My Goddess, that was a heart-ripping episode!

[TalynLives]

Aeryn patting Crais on the cheek and saying "Now you go" was very affecting I thought, followed by that look in Crais's eyes that followed, the "alive this moment, dead in a few moments time" look. Plus I miss Crais's character and not getting to see Lani Tupu on screen in person anymore. Talyn was a damn cool ship too and it's a pity he's gone.

It's was also sad in a way because Crais was just beginning his life in the same sense that Aeryn began her life after being thrown out of the Peacekeepers.

[Afarscapefan]

TJohn is more heroic because he could have tried to escape like Furlough. He knows his plans never work like they are supposed to so he was aware of the risk. He almost made it if he had got the timimg right.

Crais is a fascinating character. Especially as scapers have pointed out how much he has changed. As a Peace Keeper however isn't it is his job to defend his people? It was sad how just as he turns "good" he dies.

[Spedoinkel]

Crais definatley. I always found the dynamics of his character to be so interesting. There is alot more beneath the surface with him, than there is with John, who shows everything.

[MrX]

Had to go with Crais. IMO, it was the greatest death scene in the series. It was an amazing and unforseen sacrifice.

[Otterchick]

Thanks everyone for all your thoughts and opinions. I must say I cried more when TJohn died, but that's more due to understanding lost loved ones. Crais meant more to me in that I had always seen him in a self-serving light, and to make the ultimate sacrafice ... well, it hit me hard. I must also say I agree with Aerynmoon ... I too was thinkin in the back of my mind ... there *is* another John...

It's interesting, because when I go back and watch the previous episodes, and I see how untrusting and impatient John is with Crais, I get a bit aggrivated with him.

Anyway ... again, thanks for your thoughts.

[Dane]

I'd say crais, TJohns death was an acciedent, he got his timing wrong when he tried to get the wormhole weapon, whereas Crais commited suicide knowing that he was doing it for a good cause.

[MrX]

I must also say I agree with Aerynmoon ... I too was thinkin in the back of my mind ... there *is* another John...



That's always been an issue with me too.

[Fahrbot Drusilla]

Crais, because I didn't like his character before he did it, but in my mind his sacrifice redeemed him of everything he had done in the past.

[Sirona]

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

Crais: All that I have cared for have gone. My parents... taken away from me, my brother dead. So now, I live; I plan; I do-- all in the service of my own interests. In that, I believe, I am not unique in the universe.

Despite all of this, I understand the power of the technology that Scorpius is attempting to harness. I understand the horror that will wash over this galaxy if anyone wields this weapon. And, last of all, I now know that I am the only individual capable of stopping him. :cry2:

Very noble.

EC if you happen to read this. Pass this message. A candle burns constantly for good fortune to come his way

[Spedoinkel]

Very nice Sirona, thanks for bringing that up.

It's like this; Crais had a choice, TJ didn't. TJ was trying to blow up a ship so that the Scarrens couldn't get the tech, but was accidentally irradiated. Crais was trying to blow up a ship, and save as many people as possible, and he knew he would die in the process.

Isn't an intentional self sacrifice, more noble than an accidental one?

[BrentBarrett]

Very nice Sirona, thanks for bringing that up.

It's like this; Crais had a choice, TJ didn't. TJ was trying to blow up a ship so that the Scarrens couldn't get the tech, but was accidentally irradiated. Crais was trying to blow up a ship, and save as many people as possible, and he knew he would die in the process.

Isn't an intentional self sacrifice, more noble than an accidental one?

I disagree with your premise. I don't see TJohn's sacrifice as accidental at all. He knew the device was malfunctioning and could've done as Furlow did and gotten away. He did not have to close that door on the device. He knew he had a great chance of getting a bad sun tan when he did it, but he did it anyway. You might say Crais knew 100% that he would die, but I think John knew he would too... he just didn't want to admit it to himself.

And once he had been zapped, he could've gone off with Aeryn and spent all of his remaining time with her and maybe even gotten somewhere that could've helped him before he died. But he didn't... he did what only he could do and what needed to be done.

I can't say one is more noble than the other. Both knew they were going to die and that they were the only ones who could do what had to be done. Both are equal in my book. And I think John's sacrifice is what gave Crais that extra bit he needed to perform his.

[StarsGoBlue]

I always wondered why the frell he didn't just go around and close the panel from behind. :dunno:

[Dane]

Just as sirona said, thats what i'm talking about, and like starsgoblue says, why the frell didn't TJohn go round the back and close the panal, his death was an acciedent, Crais had a choice.

[Lost Like Me]

I always wondered why the frell he didn't just go around and close the panel from behind. :dunno:
But then he wouldn't have died and The Choice or DWTB would be goners, and I wouldn't trade those for the world.

[LT Garrix]

I figured that the two Johns would be short lived, that one would end up dying. One, it's hard to have two leads, both story wise and on the actor, two, he's also the romantic lead, have Crais as the third party was one thing because you know he really didn't have a chance, but with two Johns it was just too much.

I really like the way Farscape handled this. They kept the duplicate around a lot longer than other shows have, with the exception of ST:TNG, but the double really didn't factor into that story much. And The Choice is one of the most moving TV eps I have seen. Claudia is magnificent in that one.

[Spedoinkel]

I disagree with your premise. I don't see TJohn's sacrifice as accidental at all. He knew the device was malfunctioning and could've done as Furlow did and gotten away. He did not have to close that door on the device. He knew he had a great chance of getting a bad sun tan when he did it, but he did it anyway. You might say Crais knew 100% that he would die, but I think John knew he would too... he just didn't want to admit it to himself.

I disagree. John had a choice wether to build the thing in the first place. He could have run off when he found out the scarrens where coming, but he wanted to be a hero and blow stuff up. Later, he was accidentally irradiated. He didn't know building the thing would kill him.
Crais knew blowing up Talyn would kill him, and he did admit it to himself. He admited it to Talyn. Talyn was a danger to him self, and Crais mananged to convince him, that this self sacrifice is a good death.

Crias' choice from the get go was a death sentence.
John's choice was just somthing that need to be done, that due to a mistake in the plan, killied him.

[BrentBarrett]

I always wondered why the frell he didn't just go around and close the panel from behind. :dunno:

You and me both, but then I rationalized it by saying that with the door open like that, the radiation wasn't being directed... it was an area effect, so if it had spiked when he was behind the device, I think he still would've gotten the fatal sunburn.

All I really know is he had the chance to run, but chose to take was was clearly a no-win risk to "save the galaxy." I think that scene after the exposure, where he let the sand pour out of his hands was less a, "Darn it, now I'm frelled," and more a, "Crap, I knew it was going to come to this," sort of moment. He was less angry and more resigned to fate in that scene, I think. His anger came only when he realized what his death was doing/going to do to Aeryn.

[Otterchick]

I don't understand all this "talk" about John having a choice ... he could have run, he could have left ... are we all watching the same John Crichton?

On the scifi board LTG said that Crais' sacrafice was different in that he is/was *not* the 'hero' and therefore his actions were less than expected. John IS the hero. It is expected that he's always going to (or at least try to) do the right thing. If the writters etc. had made John run ... I personally would have felt cheated. Even if there wasn't a John on Moya. It is completely against all that they have portrayed John's character to be. In reality, yeah I guess there was a "choice" of sorts (there are always choices) ... but come on, we all know John would never "choose" to do anything other than what he did in that moment. Nor do I think he felt he had another option. I mean save his own skin and what? ... As Scorpy is always quick to point out ... "The Scarrans will rule half this galaxy!" He did what he had to do.

I don't think there's a viewer out there that REALLY thought neither of the Crichtons would die. One was fated for death immediately.

I understand what people are saying about it being an accident that killed John, and Crais made a choice. I do not however think the "accident" lessens the impact of TJohn's death, or makes it less tragic - even though I still vote for Crais and Talyn.

~Just my 2 cents. I'm decending from my :box: .

Thanks for "listening"

[Spedoinkel]

:hug: