Crais and John in TOBM [spoilers for 1.08]

[Lonewolf89]

I was rewatching 'That Old Black Magic' recently, and I was wondering if anyone else thought it unrealistic that John beat Crais in hand to hand combat? I know Crais was blind with rage, but he's also been trained as a Peacekeeper. You'd think he'd be a much better fighter than first season Crichton.

[TalynLives]

Yeah that's what I thought too. And aren't sebeceans supposed to be physically stronger than humans? I mean I've seen Aeryn kick serious butt and get seriously knocked about without suffering so much as a bruise.

[MrX]

That was kind of strange. Especially in light of the fact that Crais holds his own against Aeryn later on in "Mind the Baby".

[vacantlook]

Maybe the distance from where Maldis was on the planet and Crais's ship had some affect on weakening Crais's strength in Maldis's arena place.

[TalynLives]

Hmmm, maybe if you look at it this way. Neither John or Crais were physically in Maldis's realm, so physical strength didn't matter. Also Crais had been a captain for quite some time, so it's possible he wasn't used to man on man combat. Whereas John would have been getting somewhat used to defending himself, no doubt Aeryn was giving him lessons so he would have just enough skill to avoid getting killed by Crais. (we notice that he was still running scared of him though).

In Mind the Baby, Crais holding his own against Aeryn, despite Aeryn's skills being sharper could be explained by neither of them really wanting to hurt the other one.

No I'm still interested to know how John overpowered Chiana in "Crackers don't matter" considering Chiana is SERIOUSLY strong. I guess that's just an inconcistency, pure and simple, which I'll allow because it was a great scene :D

[Pip_The_Great]

Well and in Crackers Don't Matter, everyone was kind of out of it anyway. John was worked up, I suppose you could assume his adrenalin was pumping, and that gave him a sort of 'edge'.

[Namrat]

Hmmm, maybe if you look at it this way. Neither John or Crais were physically in Maldis's realm, so physical strength didn't matter.

Good point . . . and also don't forget, Maldus didn't want John to kill Crais or Crais to kill John. . . Maldus wanted Crais to bring the command carrier to him . . . Crais wouldn't have brought the command carrier if John was killed . . . so Maldus would probably had something to do with it too . . . or at the very least he would have intervened if Crais was about to kill John . . .

Also Crais had been a captain for quite some time, so it's possible he wasn't used to man on man combat.

Another good point . . . military leader in a technologically advanced civilization are rarely as good a fighter as some of those whom they command . . . Like TaylnLives stated, most tend to stop their combat training and concentrate on other things such as brooding and scheming for higher command . . . so the years of being captain could very well have placed Crais at best only marginally better than John at the time when they met . . . (dont' forget how Aeryn so easily beat the hell out of John when they first met . . . see next post)

Whereas John would have been getting somewhat used to defending himself, no doubt Aeryn was giving him lessons so he would have just enough skill to avoid getting killed by Crais.

A reasonable assumption . . . not everything has to be shown on screen (and it seemed that as the show progressed, John began to handle his own against Aeryn . . . at least sometimes . . . evidence of John just getting better at defending himself, either by direct training, or by simply fighting against the bad guys, or a little of both)

(we notice that he was still running scared of him though)

Poor John :(

[tedbragg1]

Chi's famous 20 foot leap into John's arms made me wonder just how tough and strong the little runt is.

But I found it nice the show never established such things. They left it up to our imaginations. Love those guys. I hate it when stuff is spelled out.

As for why John beat the snot out of Crais? A few things: Heat (all that fire) Exhaustion (all the running around, fighting) and Maldis *really* wanted John (fixed fight?)

[MrX]

No I'm still interested to know how John overpowered Chiana in "Crackers don't matter" considering Chiana is SERIOUSLY strong. I guess that's just an inconcistency, pure and simple, which I'll allow because it was a great scene

She is? When was that established? The jump? Maybe it's just the lower body, or she shoots rocket fuel our of her eema, but Crichton easily took her in "Durka Returns" and "Crichton Kicks".

[TalynLives]

Maybe she's just very sturdy. Once Jool punched her right in the nose, Chiana didn't flinch, but Jool nearly broke her fist.

[Sirona]

John used erp colloquial terms at Crais, thereby throwing him <Crais> off balance. You could almost feel Crais's fustration in not being able to understand what John was saying. And this upperhandness was carried pretty much through the rest the season's.

That's my .02 ¢

[apestone81]

Crais was also working off pure rage, and John kept a level head, so he was able to best Crais because he was able to see the situation from another side and was able to find weaknesses in Crais's style.

[apestone81]

plus PK's are trained to all fight the same way, so Crais would know exactly how to best Aeryn, while Crichton uses no form what-so-ever, so he keeps trying whatever he can think of then just falling back on training. Crichton is no pushover, never was, and his stubornness meshed with an unorthodox fighting style would baffle anyone trying to fight him.

[Frell-n-Grok]

From what we've learned about John over the years, I find it hard to believe that the UT's was the first time the man ever was in a fight. I think he's been in a scrap or two, so he does have some idea on how to defend himself. Plus, Maldis was really working on Crais' control and I would think that Crais, think of John as inferior wouldn't have thought that he could defend himself. All that equals Crais learning not to underestimate any adversary.

[David Falkayn]

One of the big myths that came out of early season one Farscape was "Helpless John"--partly I think that's due to portrayals in early fanfic set during the first season in which John was basically portrayed as a walking talking punching bag. The thing is though, if you look at the episodes, when John is alerted and ready, he's always been able to hold his own in mano a mano combat--every time Aeryn took him down, for example, he was caught unawares--so the notion of him, with his back to the wall where he knows it's either "root hog or die" holding his own and even beating Crais in physical confrontation isn't that out of line.

ETA:

While there is the myth of "Helpless John" we also have to be mindful of another myth, that of "Hypercompetant John" who can leap tall Shadow Depositories in a single bound; Run faster than a speeding Prowler; and can take down entire legions of Peacekeepers with just a look. :) The big thing to remember about John is that he's really an all-round human and that's what resonates for us all. He has his strengths and weaknesses. While not originally a fighter, like many of us, he showed that when the chips were down and he had no choice, he could fight with a ruthlessness and intensity that rivaled Crais or any other Peacekeeper.

[Frell-n-Grok]

Well said, DF.