When and why did pilot start calling John "Commander"?

[Tsamoc]

This is my frist time through the entire series and i am loving it, but i noticed lately that Pilot has been calling John commander, but i dont remember her ever doing that. When and why did she start doing that?

[Jellyfish]

I think commander is his official IASA rank so thats why Pilot uses the rank ... I am not sure when he started using it though.

[malachilenomade]

I always took it as that (remember that Jack referred to him as Commander in the first ep), but also watch how after a while the crew starts to defer to him for a lot of leadership decisions... that could have also pressed Pilot's choice of calling him that.

[Boron]

Yeah, that's what I got. His rank when he appeared was Commander, and Pilot, used to calling characters by rank or position picked up on it. He has also referred to Aeryn as "Officer Sun", D'argo as "Ka D'argo", and I think he used Zhaan's proper title, too. Chiana and Jool & Sikouzu have no rank per se.

[Nicola]

I always took it as that (remember that Jack referred to him as Commander in the first ep), but also watch how after a while the crew starts to defer to him for a lot of leadership decisions... that could have also pressed Pilot's choice of calling him that.

I don't know about deferring to John for leadership decisions. John plans always turned out badly.

And remember they voted D'Argo "Captain".

[malachilenomade]

I don't know about deferring to John for leadership decisions. John plans always turned out badly.

And remember they voted D'Argo "Captain".

For certain situations, but I noticed that they did tend to defer to John for a lot of decisions (even though his plans weren't the best all the time :) )

[SpyderDan]

I think Pilot addressing John as Commander is just a sign of their growing respect for Crichton. I mean he went from being the dumb, fish out of water guy they picked up on a prison break to the guy who always had the plan (that is, the plan that sometimes worked).

[MrX]

he always called Rygel "Dominar" as well.

[Lost Like Me]

Pilot was a very formal kinda guy. He addressed everyone by their rank or position. IIRC, he only called them by their first name if it was something personal.

Did we ever learn what Pilot's name was? During one of those nice intimate chats with Aeryn, it would have been cool if he told her "call me Vincent". ;)

[Selena]

I think he introduced himself as Commander John Crichton and he told Aeryn that his rank is commander - I'm guessing the aliens would have just accepted it as part of his name.

[slgn*]

I thought Pilot called John "Commander" in the series from time to time too -- but I can't come up with any examples. But yes, as posted above it is John's IASA title/rank. Pilot has called D'Argo "Captain" after he was chosen but I don't know if Pilot called him that during the mini.

[sny]

Pilot was a very formal kinda guy. He addressed everyone by their rank or position. IIRC, he only called them by their first name if it was something personal.

Did we ever learn what Pilot's name was? During one of those nice intimate chats with Aeryn, it would have been cool if he told her "call me Vincent". ;)

I don't think we ever actually heard it, but it seems like during The Way We Weren't, they explained that "Pilot" language was so complex and long, that no one would be able to pronounce it, even if they knew what it was. Hence the need to call every pilot "Pilot". They seemed to distinguish them by the Leviathan's name. Like "Moya's Pilot".

The Pilot language reference sort of made me think of Ents from LOTR. Wonder if there's a Pilotmoot where a bunch of Pilots get together and take hours to introduce themselves?

[General]

The only thing I can come up with that hasn't already been said is that Crichton was a 'scientist' with IASA and not a 'military' man...hence, Commander and not Captain. Just my 2 cents worth...for what it's worth!

General

[ScaperJim]

The only thing I can come up with that hasn't already been said is that Crichton was a 'scientist' with IASA and not a 'military' man...hence, Commander and not Captain. Just my 2 cents worth...for what it's worth!

General

IASA, which I am assuming is similiar to NASA in a more fictional sense probably runs the same way with ranks. The person who is in charge of the mission is given the title/rank of "Commander." He/she is the head honcho...people like Neil Armstrong are Commanders. Pilot probably just realized that John is perfect for that leadership role and started calling him, "Commander."

[Nicola]

Pilot probably just realized that John is perfect for that leadership role and started calling him, "Commander."

I don't think so. In the first season the crew considered John a screw up. (Kung Fu! Kung Fu never carried a gun!). He had no clue what was going on and needed the rest of the crew just to survive.

Aeryn and D'Argo had a little conversation in Family Ties that clearly established the decision making process on Moya.

Aeryn points out that D'Argo was not the captain and D'Argo's response was "No one is. This is anarchy and today it is my turn to rule!"

Second season John was losing his mind. He did have the occasional plan that was adopted but they never worked.

Third season John was twinned, still talking to Harvey (the crew was not happy about that) and MoyaJohn fought with D'ARgo all the time and was getting drunk on a regular basis. TalynJohn was on Talyn and Crais was Captain.

Fourth Season - Lakka.

And that season saw D'Argo voted Captain. Notably John didn't even get one vote.

PILOT [V.O.] The voting for the captaincy is complete... With Moya abstaining and everyone, except for Scorpius, casting a vote. Including myself, our total comes to eight.

The tally is as follows... one vote for Dominar Rygel the Sixteenth. (Rygel voted for himself.)

Rygel grins, making appreciative noises, a bit of plant fiber in his fingers.

PILOT: One vote for Officer Aeryn Sun. (Pilot voted for Aeryn.)

Astonishing as it seems... Scorpius received one vote. (Sikozu)

Back in his cell, Scorpius looks up from replenishing his coolant rod holder, smiling appreciatively; and quick cut to Sikozu in the center chamber, also smirking happily.

PILOT: One vote was cast for the the Divine Eternal. (Noranti)

Noranti presses her palms together following a short florish, her eyes cast upward. Typical.

PILOT: And finally... four votes for our new and deserving captain... Ka' D'Argo. (John, Aeryn, Chiana and D'Argo)

On command, D'Argo breathes a short laugh of slight surprise. He glances over to Chiana who gives him a satisfied smile.


John is the audiences POV character - he is the human. But he is not the leader.

Personally I find that enormously refreshing in a science fiction show. It is unrealisitic when the 'human' is the superior being in a galaxy full of different species all with their strengths and weaknesses who have been there for a very long time and actually know how things work.

[ScaperJim]

Nicola...you have way to much time on your hands. :cool:

[Nicola]

Heh. Someday I will give you my well thought out reasoning behind who I think it was who killed Salis in Durka Returns. And no.... it wasn't Chiana.

[Jim Reaper]

Personally I find that enormously refreshing in a science fiction show. It is unrealisitic when the 'human' is the superior being in a galaxy full of different species all with their strengths and weaknesses who have been there for a very long time and actually know how things work.

Amen.

[Lost Like Me]

John is the audiences POV character - he is the human. But he is not the leader.

Personally I find that enormously refreshing in a science fiction show. It is unrealisitic when the 'human' is the superior being in a galaxy full of different species all with their strengths and weaknesses who have been there for a very long time and actually know how things work.
I agree, but I do think his opinion was still very valued. Think of the scene in Out of their Minds when Rygel is complaining about how no one listens to his opinion. Zhaan asks JOHN for clarification about what to do. It was funny, but still telling about John's value.

[arthurfrdent]

IIRC once Crichton says that he is a Commander in the first epi, everyone knows that that is his 'Title' I think Pilot only uses it as an official way to call John's attention, kinda like your mom uses your middle name only when you are in trouble... ;)

[Nicola]

I agree, but I do think his opinion was still very valued. Think of the scene in Out of their Minds when Rygel is complaining about how no one listens to his opinion. Zhaan asks JOHN for clarification about what to do. It was funny, but still telling about John's value.

I grant you that in the second season John's opinion was valued over Rygels. I think that the DRD's opinions were valued above Rygel at certain points in the series... :lol

By the way, I didn't say John's opinions and contributions weren't valued.... just that he was not the leader.

[Judith]

Yeah, that's what I got. His rank when he appeared was Commander, and Pilot, used to calling characters by rank or position picked up on it. He has also referred to Aeryn as "Officer Sun", D'argo as "Ka D'argo", and I think he used Zhaan's proper title, too. Chiana and Jool & Sikouzu have no rank per se.


That's what I picked up too. He calls folk by their titles, when they have 'em.

[sny]

That's what I picked up too. He calls folk by their titles, when they have 'em.

I kinda figured that might be because he spent a few cycles around Peacekeepers exclusively, when Moya was a prison transport and had the control collar. The Peacekeepers are kind of big on titles.

Throw in the "we live mostly to serve" attitude that most Pilot/Leviathan duos have, and the fact that Pilot is very young for his species, I would guess it's kind of a gesture of respect and formality for him to use the titles and/or full names. Wasn't it The Way We Weren't that established Pilot as a bit of a whippersnapper to already be bonded with a Leviathan? Maybe he's showing extra respect for those he considers his "elders", those with more experience by using titles, as well.

[DRD 1812]

Yeah, you can tell in TWWW Pilot is young. His immaturity was evident:

Pilot/Human teenager..

"Moya will be better off without me!"/ "You hate me!"
"Leave me alone!"/ "I don't want to talk about my social life"
"Get out of my chamber!" / "This is my room! Get out!"

[malachilenomade]

IIRC once Crichton says that he is a Commander in the first epi, everyone knows that that is his 'Title' I think Pilot only uses it as an official way to call John's attention, kinda like your mom uses your middle name only when you are in trouble... ;)


First name for me :)

[Lee in Limbo]

Just as an aside to Nicola, I don't think anyone was prepared to admit John's usefulness, and usually derided his plans because they were unconventional. However, to say his plans never worked is really more following the adopted convention of the Moya crew continuing to try to keep him beneath them.

He was a quick learner and was generally the quickest with ideas that very often did work, though occasionally not as neatly as hoped. Very often, he wound up being the wild card character, injecting Earth thinking into the mix, which invariably disrupted whatever their opponents were doing because they weren't prepared to deal with John's eccentricity.

By the mini he was the one most people looked to for that spark of a plan, and most realized he was capable of surviving against even the most unbelievable odds. That he was never explicitely declared leader is beside the point. He was part of a collective of free-thinkers, most of whom were accustomed to positions of command themselves. That they didn't immediately dismiss his ideas out of hand was about as much respect as they were prepared to offer the human.

Plus, they didn't really start to cohere into a team and a family until he took it upon himself to treat them as equals, something none of them were prepared to do for each other until he started to draw them out.

And frankly, I never really saw D'Argo as much of a leader-type. Oh sure, he was quick to take command in tactical situations he thought he recognized, but he rarely had an idea that didn't put him in the middle of pitched combat where they very often got outflanked and scraped by using someone else's wits. D'Argo was strong and loyal, but rarely had more to offer than his intimidating size and quick temper as leadership traits.

I really see D'Argo's majority win as more of a concession to his being the least likely to hatch a plan most of the others wouldn't be able to comprehend until afterwards. Plus, unlike the others, he desired command and could demand it from them more efficiently by growling than any of the others could by shouting or reason.

But any road...

I don't think Pilot started calling John by his IASA title until around the third season, when at least by Pilot's own opinion, John had proven himself to be more than just an average passenger. The title commander probably didn't mean much more to him that just that; John's full title.

That said, Pilot was indeed as mentioned a very formal guy. He referred to everyone by their full names as often as possible, if he deigned to refer to them at all. He even referred to Jool by her full name, though I can't recall if he got the opportunity to do so with Sikozu.

[Nicola]

Just as an aside to Nicola, I don't think anyone was prepared to admit John's usefulness, and usually derided his plans because they were unconventional. However, to say his plans never worked is really more following the adopted convention of the Moya crew continuing to try to keep him beneath them.

The first season John doesn't have a clue of the cultural or political environment he has been thrust into. He does learn fast - it only took him till "That Old Black Magic" (episode 8) till he realised that negotiation isn't going to work on this side of the galaxy and he started fighting back.

And frankly, I never really saw D'Argo as much of a leader-type. Oh sure, he was quick to take command in tactical situations he thought he recognized, but he rarely had an idea that didn't put him in the middle of pitched combat where they very often got outflanked and scraped by using someone else's wits. D'Argo was strong and loyal, but rarely had more to offer than his intimidating size and quick temper as leadership traits.

I really see D'Argo's majority win as more of a concession to his being the least likely to hatch a plan most of the others wouldn't be able to comprehend until afterwards. Plus, unlike the others, he desired command and could demand it from them more efficiently by growling than any of the others could by shouting or reason.

D'Argo has been trying to be the leader since the beginning - which was a plot development that was made very clear in 'Till the Blood Runs Clear" episode 11 in Season One.

Don't forget - not even John voted for himself as Captain. He voted for D'Argo. And I don't think any of the crew - especially Aeryn - would have voted for D'Argo as any kind of concession. He had to be the best choice. Otherwise he wouldn't have received four votes.

I don't think Pilot started calling John by his IASA title until around the third season, when at least by Pilot's own opinion, John had proven himself to be more than just an average passenger. The title commander probably didn't mean much more to him that just that; John's full title.

Actually the first time Pilot calls John Commander was in "Exodus from Genesis" episode 3 of season one when Pilot was alerting John to the activities of the Aeryn clone.

PILOT: Commander Crichton, she is initiating a thermal increase.

That said, Pilot was indeed as mentioned a very formal guy. He referred to everyone by their full names as often as possible, if he deigned to refer to them at all. He even referred to Jool by her full name, though I can't recall if he got the opportunity to do so with Sikozu.

The only person Pilot liked to call by their first name - and only in private - was Aeryn.

I love the relationship between Pilot and Aeryn. :D

[malachilenomade]

The only person Pilot liked to call by their first name - and only in private - was Aeryn.

I love the relationship between Pilot and Aeryn. :D


To be sure, it was a cool relationship, but didn't Pilot also refer to Zhaan by her name rather than her priestess title as well?

[Lost Like Me]

Don't forget - not even John voted for himself as Captain. He voted for D'Argo. And I don't think any of the crew - especially Aeryn - would have voted for D'Argo as any kind of concession. He had to be the best choice. Otherwise he wouldn't have received four votes.

I agree Nicola. I don't see him getting votes purely on some intimidation factor or out of concession. D'Argo did a lot of growing up during the seasons, and by S4 he was the perfect choice. Now if the vote had been taken prior to S4, I don't know. Maybe by year 3, but not before then. He and John complemented each other well in S2 and S3, so maybe co-captains. I don't know if team Moya was ready for a single leader prior to S4. Interesting to think about.

[Nicola]

To be sure, it was a cool relationship, but didn't Pilot also refer to Zhaan by her name rather than her priestess title as well?

Yes, my bad, you are right. Zhaan also had a special relationship with Pilot.

[Nicola]

I agree Nicola. I don't see him getting votes purely on some intimidation factor or out of concession. D'Argo did a lot of growing up during the seasons, and by S4 he was the perfect choice. Now if the vote had been taken prior to S4, I don't know. Maybe by year 3, but not before then. He and John complemented each other well in S2 and S3, so maybe co-captains. I don't know if team Moya was ready for a single leader prior to S4. Interesting to think about.

It wasn't just D'Argo who wasn't ready to be Captain. The crew weren't ready to be captained. Both sides of the equation needed to be ready to accept the change in status.

Fortunately D'Argo had grown enormously over the seasons. In Twice Shy after his dominant trait (assertiveness) was harvested - D'Argo was all about negotiation. If the next dominant trait is the one that comes to the surface in that situation (which for the sake of argument let us assume) D'Argo has it all. He is assertive and prepared to take action when necessary, but he does not ignore the value of negotiation.

In that same episode, John vacillated between boundless and unfounded optimism and total suicidal despair. Not really the guy you want to have as your leader. Don't get me wrong, I love the character John Crichton to pieces - but he is not perfect. I probably like the character better for that reason.

edited for clarity

[sny]

Yes, my bad, you are right. Zhaan also had a special relationship with Pilot.

Well, Pilot was a bit more warm and fuzzy and personal with anyone one on one in his chamber. Usually they were in there treating him like a therapist/agony aunt. Seems like when he was relating to them one on one, with no crisis or coms or command decisions involved, he would usually relax and call them by a more informal name.

I always thought it was kind of neat how most of the folks on Moya had a special tete a tete with Pilot at some point or other, and all for different reasons. Aeryn has some of his DNA, she named Talyn, she was a bit of a surrogate mother for him when Moya couldn't be.


Season 4 spoilers ahead, but generally minor ones

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Chiana helped Moya give birth, and I just watched season 4's Promises the other day, and there's a lovely scene with her telling Pilot not to let Sikozu speak down him like he's a "sham" Pilot. It's very tender between the two of them, Chi telling Pilot that coming back to Moya feels like coming home.

Zhaan, of course, had taken Moya's pain, Pilot's pain, and been trusted with their care by Moya's builders, so she had a different sort of special relationship with them.

Jool, Pilot seems to have had a special fondness for her, too. I kind of got the feeling they hung out and talked nerdy with one another in quiet moments. He seems to miss her particularly after leaving her on Arnessk, especially when she's "replaced" by Sikozu. And there are some nice conversations between Pilot and John, as well. Even Rygel has some glimpses of a special relationship with Pilot, when he speaks warmly about his many cycles spent with Moya as his home.

Pilot just about always got all sweet on people when they stayed a while. And how could you fail to get sweet on Pilot? He's so huggable. All those arms.

[Boron]

I flash on the episode where D'argo tells Rygel, convinced that nobody likes him, that Pilot said that he liked Rygel. At the end, you see Rygel on Pilot's console, patting one of Pilots arms and saying "I like you, Pilot".

[Nicola]

Yeah. I love Pilot. He was the best character. I wish we saw more of him in the mini-series.

And I love that Moya took control and dove into the sea. You go jirl!

[Lost Like Me]

It wasn't just D'Argo who wasn't ready to be Captain. The crew weren't ready to be captained. Both sides of the equation needed to be ready to accept the change in status.
That's what I meant, none of them were ready. Their individual agendas gradually took less focus in their lives and they bonded as a unit. I'm glad they started out so untrusting and adversarial. It made the eventual family they formed that much more meaningful.
In that same episode, John vacillated between boundless and unfounded optimism and total suicidal despair. Not really the guy you want to have as your leader.
But that's because she took away his hope and never give up attitude, which pretty much makes John, John. :)
Once Big D came unto his own, he was a great choice for Captain. I was so happy for him. Almost as happy as when he got control of his ship. :cloud9:

[Lee in Limbo]

I just knew this topic wasn't done. All sorts of great thoughts that hadn't been touched on before. I still debate D'Argo's leadership capabilities, but then, he was still a better choice than Scorpius, for all his experience.

As for holding up those recessive personality traits, usually such traits in extreme personalities are underdeveloped and poorly balanced. I don't see them as being indicative of the relative merit of ones ability to lead in and of themselves. I fancy myself a fairly well-rounded personality, but I lack a certain decisiveness related at least in part due to the uncertainty inherent in my broad outlook (and maybe just a little to do with my self-esteem... ;) ). Sometimes you need to go with someone who has that driving edge, and the kind of mind that's always searching for solutions to the problems before them (without second-guessing themselves as much as I do).

[and yes, of course it's all about me. Why do you ask? :) ]

And I had completely forgotten that early reference to Commander Crichton, which is embarrassing, since I just went through those episodes last week.

Thanks. :)

[Lost Like Me]

I fancy myself a fairly well-rounded personality, but I lack a certain decisiveness related at least in part due to the uncertainty inherent in my broad outlook (and maybe just a little to do with my self-esteem... ;)
I've never thought of it that way, but it sounds like me in a nutshell. I'm very broad minded about most things, but never put it together with my often indecisiveness. I think I feel better already, but I can't decide. ;)

[Lee in Limbo]

Dammit... now you've got me thinking. I'll never come up with a concise answer in time.

[Captain Picard]

I don't think we ever actually heard it, but it seems like during The Way We Weren't, they explained that "Pilot" language was so complex and long, that no one would be able to pronounce it, even if they knew what it was. Hence the need to call every pilot "Pilot". They seemed to distinguish them by the Leviathan's name. Like "Moya's Pilot".

The Pilot language reference sort of made me think of Ents from LOTR. Wonder if there's a Pilotmoot where a bunch of Pilots get together and take hours to introduce themselves?


Slight derail about pilots. Can they live without being in leviathans?

[sny]

Slight derail about pilots. Can they live without being in leviathans?


All kindsa spoilers ahead for The Way We Weren't and a teeny one from late season 3!









If I understand/remember the thrust of The Way We Weren't, yes. In fact, they actually live longer if they live an unbonded life, best I remember. They choose to bond to be able to travel and see the stars, and only a portion of them are deemed worthy to share that kind of relationship with a Leviathan. In fact, our Pilot even makes mention that the elders have told him he's not ready to be bonded, he's too young, but the Peacekeepers circumvent the usual process in order to get a more cooperative Pilot for Moya.. The Way We Weren't is going to be your best Pilot-background episode. Both Moya's-Pilot-whom-we-all-know-and-love and Pilot-species in general.

However, if I've got my memory straight, once they're bonded, they're so intertwined and dependent on the ship, they can't easily live when removed. Their systems essentially become embedded in the leviathan's systems and they die at the same time, generally speaking. Unless something radical happens to the Pilot, like what happened to Moya's first, female Pilot, in TWWW. But that was an aberration. Pilot seems to indicate that Pilots give up one type of freedom and independence for a different sort of freedom and independence when choosing to bond. They're no longer separate beings, they're dedicated to service, but it's the only way they can travel and see the stars.

Bonding seems to be portrayed as kind of a marriage of sorts. Not necessary to life, but it enhances each one's existence, and leviathans don't easily accept a new pilot once they've bonded with one. I guess what the leviathan gets out of it is a companionship and a voice between themselves and the people they carry. Judging from the "rogue leviathan" Moya and crew encounter in season 3 (Pilot says the rogue has killed its own pilot.), leviathans can survive without a Pilot, but the Pilot can't really survive being removed from a bonding.

[Lee in Limbo]

Hmmn. I've forgotten which S4 episode involved disconnecting Pilot from Moya so he could pilot the transport pod through the wormhole for Crichton and Aeryn (it was a very tricky maneuver that Pilot told John he didn't have the reflexes for). I remember it was fourth season because Noranti is slathering gunk on the conduit lengths they need to keep alive so Pilot and Moya can be rejoined. So the point is, they can be separated, although it's apparently a dangerous procedure. I'l have to rediscover that episode so I can review whether Pilot and Moya were languishing while apart.

[Lost Like Me]

Hmmn. I've forgotten which S4 episode involved disconnecting Pilot from Moya so he could pilot the transport pod through the wormhole for Crichton and Aeryn
I think it was Bad Timing

[zen98034]

Yep, it was Bad Timing (very last ep, until the Mini (Whoo Hoo)). They rested on the water planet so both could recuperate.

Mitch