mandatory mental-health screening

[divinedaydreams]

Not sure about anyone else but I'll be writting some emails and letters.
-----------------

November 15, 2004
Congressman Ron Paul's letter expressing opposition to mandatory mental-health
screening of children was sent to Chairman Ralph Regula last Friday. Twenty-two
other House members signed Dr. Paul's letter. Those additional signatures were
added in large part due to your efforts. Thank you!

We must now focus our efforts on House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. Mr. DeLay
can be extremely helpful to our cause.

The House will likely pass an omnibus spending bill by this Saturday. It must
include language prohibiting money from being spent on mandatory mental-health
screening of kids; otherwise, the screening programs already operating in Texas
and Illinois will be implemented nationwide.

Should the government subject your children to mandatory mental-health
screening without your consent? We say "NO!"

The pharmaceutical industry says "yes" because it wants millions of new
customers for drugs such as Ritalin. The psychiatry/psychology/counseling
establishment says "yes" because they want millions of new patients. These
groups are represented by the most powerful and highest paid lobbyists in
Washington and they are working this week to satisfy their clients -- at the
expense of your rights as parents and the well-being of your children.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons warned the public five
days ago that universal psychiatric screening and drugging of children is "a
dangerous scheme that will heap even more coercive pressure on parents to
medicate children with potentially dangerous side effects."

Congressman Ron Paul, a physician for over 30 years, abhors the "notion of
federal bureaucrats ordering potentially millions of youngsters to take
psychotropic drugs like Ritalin."

We must stop this new federal program before it gets millions of dollars to
spend. As Dr. Paul cautions, "Anyone who understands bureaucracies knows they
assume more and more power incrementally. A few scattered state programs over
time will be replaced by a federal program implemented in a few select cities.
Once the limited federal program is accepted, it will be expanded nationwide."

We have until this Saturday at the latest. Urge House Majority Leader Tom
DeLay to help. Ask him to make sure the omnibus spending bill or final committee
report on Labor/HHS appropriations includes the following language: "None of the
funds made available for State incentive grants for transformation should be
used for any programs of mandatory or universal mental-health screening that
performs mental-health screening on anyone under 18 years of age without the
express, written permission of the parents or legal guardians of each individual
involved."

Mr. DeLay has a copy of the letter Dr. Paul and 22 of his colleagues sent to
Chairman Regula, so he knows about it.

Mr. DeLay's office telephone number is 202-225-4000. His fax number is
202-225-5117. An E-mail form is at
http://www.majorityleader.gov/CONTACT.ASP?a=form

Also, please spread the word. Thank you!

Background http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/screeningkidsbackground.htm

Kent Snyder The Liberty Committee http://www.thelibertycommittee.org

[LiLOrion]

We must stop this new federal program before it gets millions of dollars to spend.

There are so many programs that need this money a hell of a lot more - thats just sad.

[Kathleen]

:irate:

This sort of stuff makes me SO angry. It's a play on parents' emotions AND their pocketbooks just so these pharmaceutical companies and beauracrats can continue lining their pockets.

As a parent of a child with ADHD who is on behavioral therapy ONLY, this is just so frustrating. My son was fortunate that he was not severe enough to require medication. I have a real problem with putting him on medication for that anyways. We've learned how to deal with his issues for YEARS without medication, why start now?

Not only that, but it's also a very unfortunate way for some "parents" to use the excuse to put their children on medication they may not need simply because they may be typical, hyper, playful children that are "too much" for those people to handle. :no:

:( but also :irate:

[DRD2001]

I guess my opinion doesn't count for much, seeing as how I don't have children, but this does not sound good to me. While it may help to reveal cases of abuse (by revealing the mental damage done), it seems to me that someone's state of mind is something that can not be pigeon holed so neatly. And personally, I hear too many parents around me making excuses for their child, blaming his/her manners on ADD or something else, when it really is just bad parenting. And how long would these screenings take? Surely, in order to truely know someone's mind, it would take many sessions and not just one by an organizational, conveyor-belt shrink.

This really doesn't sound that good. It seems to me that the best thing for catching kids with true mental health issues would be to let teachers and parents have options and resources. I mention teachers, cause they often see kids more than the parents, and my mother who was a teacher, often saw deeply disturbed kids who parents ignored until it was too late.

[Kathleen]

And personally, I hear too many parents around me making excuses for their child, blaming his/her manners on ADD or something else, when it really is just bad parenting.

In some cases, you are completely right on there. However, there ARE situations where my son will interrupt during an adult conversation. He knows better than to do so, but he honestly can't help it. Generally, all I have to do is give him a reminder about it or about 30 seconds of my time if it is something that I know he feels is urgent enough to break one of our "rules".


This really doesn't sound that good. It seems to me that the best thing for catching kids with true mental health issues would be to let teachers and parents have options and resources. I mention teachers, cause they often see kids more than the parents, and my mother who was a teacher, often saw deeply disturbed kids who parents ignored until it was too late.

And you are DEAD ON with this one. I have relied heavily on my son's teachers when seeking answers for some of the things he has done. They spend over 8 hours a day with him during the week, and it is my opinion that they can tell me what it may be instead of me sitting there trying to GUESS my way through it!

[arthurfrdent]

such a complex issue and difficult to figure out... but then lotsa people out there just want a quick answer and for it to go away... Introducing a bureaucracy to it is prolly the worst possible thing though, the school systems themselves are bad enough.

Who gets shortchanged? The kid of course... Some kids with AD/HD DO need drug therapy, and some don't and that is very difficult to figure out as it is without a MANDATE to do so. OI...

[Col.Batguano]

To me this sounds like the movie THX1138, for anyone who thinks ADD (and any other combination of letters there of) is a real disease or problem or what ever you want to call it I strongly urge you to see that film.

In my experience it’s a lot more than just pharmaceutical companies trying to make a buck off of gullible parents.
there is a whole social network at work with the ADD label, psychiatrists guidance counselors, government programs, tons of groups and organizations, chomping at the bit to get there hands on children, there is a lot of money and power in dependency,-
government jobs, welfare programs, and it also provides a convenient and cheep labor force.
I was an Art teacher for 4 years at a privately run art school just outside of Boston,
I use to teach the children’s class and the portfolio prep High school students,
I encouraged intelligence creativity but most importantly to focus and perfect what ever it is they where doing, - all but one of my most talented and focused students ended up on some form of medication for ADD.
The excuse there parents gave was that ADD children are “naturally gifted at non important things like art”, and these where the kids that did there homework at the end of my class waiting for there parents to pick them up.
The Kids in my class who where there because there parents where using me as a baby sitting service, the kids who did no work wouldn’t listen to a damn word I said and often skipped out of my class half way, never got put on anything for anything, they even admitted to me that they ether paid someone to do there homework for them or just copied the answers out of the back of the book. (in hind sight I guess they where the smart ones, - they survived)
I watched the art work of some of the most talented and hard working children I had ever met go from adult quality ability to stick people and finger painting almost over night.
when I dared to voice my concerns to parents I was harassed by public school teachers, guidance counselors, and there lawyers.
I went to lectures and public High School functions at the time with one of my portfolio prep students and sat and listened to so called experts tell kids that it is impossible to be successful as an artist or musician or scientist or any other dream job you might have fantasized about as a child, and that going to College to study art, philosophy, and science was a waste of time because there was no real purpose for it in the real world, and every one of these lectures had some representative of some social program there monitoring the event.
I finally gave up teaching art because i felt (and still do) that I was harming those kids by encouraging them to be free thinkers and strive for excellence in what ever they do, because the reaction to those kids embracing that philosophy brought them a whole world of injustice.

there is nothing or no one who can convince me that ADD is real.

[shadowshiv]

I am very glad that I am a Canadian in this instance. Good luck with fighting this, guys. :(

[Col.Batguano]

this war has been going on since I was a kid.

[arthurfrdent]

mmmm, yes well Col., don't you think a sweeping generalization like that is just a feed in to the problem? I have just been diagnosed with Adult ADD, after seeking answers on my own, and I can tell you that rigid doctrine on these sorts of issues is really the worst problem, because it simply invites everyone to abdicate their responsibility. The cildren you describe, possibly didn't have true, but that doesn't mean that NOBODY has a problem. Figuring it out is difficult, and requires thought and reasoning. People seem predispossed to simply picking a side, rather than thinking about it...

AFD

[Jul]

actually, if I remember correctly, what they're saying about that bill isn't necessarily true, and it's been supported by the American Psychological Association, which I'm a member of. Gotta go pull up what I've been sent on the omnibus and I'll put it up in here...

[Kurt_eh]

I can't speak for your country, but I think we should get the screening for Members of Parliament first! :D (aka our version of congressmen) ;) :D :loco:

[shadowshiv]

I can't speak for your country, but I think we should get the screening for Members of Parliament first! :D (aka our version of congressmen) ;) :D :loco:

Please screen ours first. :D

[AgentSun]

i think ADD and ADHD are grossly misdiagnosed, from both sides. too many people are misdiagnosed with ADD or ADHD when they don't have it or might have something else, and too many are misdiagnosed with something else when they probably do have ADD and ADHD. it's quite discomforting.

[waltersgirl]

this might pass, although i doubt it, but it's unconstitutional and will immediately get shot down in court. the federal government cannot supercede the authority of parents with regards to medical issues for minors. they can't, for that matter, do it for adults either. the federal government cannot force anyone to have a mental health screening, unless that individual is an employee of the federal government and the screening is required for the job.

i would suggest that anyone really interested in this, and not in a hysterical ohmigodbigbrotherisgoingtokillus kind of way, take the time to read the source text as it is proposed so that you'll know what you're actually talking about should you decide to voice your opinion to your representatives.

[arthurfrdent]

AND... read between the lines of what is reported on the subject. I noticed a lot of half full/ half empty arguments in the reporting of this situation. Open your own eyes. I have seen how articulate y'all can be when you think something through... Odds are like most situations, the truth is somewhere nearer the middle, the risk high, but not to the moon, the payoff usefull but not the jackpot...

[DRD2001]

Col.Batguano, my mother was a high school art teacher. She retired a few years back. She had many student go on to careers in the arts. She also fought hard to maintain the highest standard possible for her students. No making ash trays in her class and she wouldn't accept students who just wanted to fingerpaint. She also had a 80% accuracy rating for which students would commit suicide. Part of that was based on how the student acted, what art they created and how the parents acted.

[Col.Batguano]

I knew I was going to get this kind of response.
What I experienced, witnessed, and reported - "Happened".
perfectly healthy intelligent kids got put on drugs for ADD when they exceeded the expectations of them.
the public school system in the city I was teaching, told there students that achieving excellence was a fantasy, and the teachers and counselors harassed me in some pretty nasty ways for telling kids that they can achieving excellence - I witnessed and experienced it.
sorry if you disagree with me, but it happened,
sorry if it offends you but it's the truth.
not just what I myself witnessed, but from what I hear from other people, and its usually along the same lines as what I said.

ADD sounds like the supposed Abraham Lincoln Quote,
"You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

sorry but school systems do get corrupted by other interest groups,
some politicians do have evil intentions,
Laws are only as good as those placed into the positions to enforce them,
and I have never seen anything that has convinced me ADD is Real.

[waltersgirl]

sorry but school systems do get corrupted by other interest groups,
some politicians do have evil intentions,
Laws are only as good as those placed into the positions to enforce them,


and? what bearing does that have on the current discussion?

[Col.Batguano]

the topic is Mandatory Mental Health Screening in Public Schools,
it had better have everything to do with the topic of conversation.

[waltersgirl]

and other than being sweeping generalizations, how do the particular statements that i quoted specifically bear on the conversation? you make those statements and then say nothing else. well of course those things are true. so what? how do you think they specifically having bearing on this discussion?

[Jul]

My understanding of this law makes it so that parents can give parental permission to allow their children to be screened so that any kids that are high risk can received counseling - it doesn't mean they'll automatically come out with a prescription pad and hand over some drugs. That would never happen.

I'm doing research with a program now that screens kids for suicide risk and then if they're in a high risk group, they'll get referred for counseling and their parents will get involved in that. That's the kind of stuff the government is setting money aside to fund. The federal government is giving money to the state governments to make programs like this happen. This isn't taking the rights of parents away.

ETA - this is also part of the government's efforts to help people that WANT mental health services to be able to get it.

[Col.Batguano]

I'm sorry but you are deluded if you can't see the bearing my statements have on the conversation.
perfectly healthy normal children had there lives stolen because some one in a local political power didn't like them stepping outside the politically correct boundaries and justified it by proclaiming them diseased.
that is a Mandatory Mental Health Screening.
I don't see any ambiguity what so ever.

[Judith]

I love how everyone on the internet is qualified to diagnose what mental illnesses are and aren't real. And that they're better at it than people who went through years of medical school.

[waltersgirl]

I'm sorry but you are deluded if you can't see the bearing my statements have on the conversation.
perfectly healthy normal children had there lives stolen because some one in a local political power didn't like them stepping outside the politically correct boundaries and justified it by proclaiming them diseased.
that is a Mandatory Mental Health Screening.
I don't see any ambiguity what so ever.

none of which answers the question. that just repeats the sweeping generalization.

I love how everyone on the internet is qualified to diagnose what mental illnesses are and aren't real. And that they're better at it than people who went through years of medical school.

yes, this.

[Jul]

perfectly healthy normal children had there lives stolen because some one in a local political power didn't like them stepping outside the politically correct boundaries and justified it by proclaiming them diseased. that is a Mandatory Mental Health Screening. I don't see any ambiguity what so ever.

Fortunately, that's not how screening for mental health disorders is done. Psychological assistants (people with master's in psychology) usually administer general inventories. If a kid scores high, they're assessed and triaged. Nobody associated with any kind of political power does any kind of labeling of anybody. We're just looking for people that are at risk so we can offer them services, if they want them or in this case if their parents allow it. More than that, we're not allowed to do anything.

[divinedaydreams]

My understanding of this law makes it so that parents can give parental permission to allow their children to be screened so that any kids that are high risk can received counseling - it doesn't mean they'll automatically come out with a prescription pad and hand over some drugs. That would never happen.

I'm doing research with a program now that screens kids for suicide risk and then if they're in a high risk group, they'll get referred for counseling and their parents will get involved in that. That's the kind of stuff the government is setting money aside to fund. The federal government is giving money to the state governments to make programs like this happen. This isn't taking the rights of parents away.

ETA - this is also part of the government's efforts to help people that WANT mental health services to be able to get it.

I think the main reason for concern is all the cases we've heard of where public school systems have been trying to force parents to drug there children or parents who use drugs to control their children rather than parent. Example the man who took his son off the drugs and was reported to Social Services for it. I know the last thing I heard he was willing to go to jail rather than put his son back on the drugs. The school wanted his son drugged so the kid would be complacent. Now I'm not saying all schools are like this but it is a growing trend. I don't normally watch Dr. Phil but he did a show on this that was quite informitive. I'll have to check out his sight and see if some of the stuff discussed is posted there. Also Mandatory by definition does not involve parents being given a choice. Maybe it will be get your child screened or take them out of public school. Yep great choice when some can't or shouldn't homeschool or afford private school.

[Jul]

I think the main reason for concern is all the cases we've heard of where public school systems have been trying to force parents to drug there children or parents who use drugs to control their children rather than parent. Example the man who took his son off the drugs and was reported to Social Services for it. I know the last thing I heard he was willing to go to jail rather than put his son back on the drugs. The school wanted his son drugged so the kid would be complacent. Now I'm not saying all schools are like this but it is a growing trend. I don't normally watch Dr. Phil but he did a show on this that was quite informitive. I'll have to check out his sight and see if some of the stuff discussed is posted there. Also Mandatory by definition does not involve parents being given a choice. Maybe it will be get your child screened or take them out of public school. Yep great choice when some can't or shouldn't homeschool or afford private school.

If you go back to the original omnibus, in no place does it say mandatory testing. Also, even though that father was reported to social services, I'll wager that there's nothing that could be done to make that parent give his child medication if that father doesn't think it's appropriate. Anybody can report, that doesn't necessarily mean that social services will do something about it.

[divinedaydreams]

Actually I think they were trying to press him by threatening to charge him with child abuse. I'll see if I can find something current on it.

[Jul]

Okay, this is from the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill: http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/About_NAMI/About_NAMI.htm

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=whats_new43&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=17530

House Kills Effort to Cut Off Mental Health Screening
On September 9, the House defeated an effort to cut off all federal funding for state and local mental health screening programs. The overwhelming bipartisan vote was 95-315 as part of an amendment to the FY 2005 Labor-HHS Appropriations bill (HR 5006).

Representative Ron Paul (R-TX) offered the amendment to express opposition to what he termed "federally mandated universal mental health screening." In fact, no such program exists at SAMHSA. At the same time, SAMHSA – as part of recommendations in President Bush’s White House Mental Health Commission report from 2003 – is moving forward to support development and replication of evidence-based screening tools that can be used in juvenile justice facilities and schools. NAMI supports these activities at SAMHSA. These efforts would have been cut off under the Paul Amendment.

After defeating the Paul Amendment, the House went on to clear HR 5006 by a 388-13 margin. HR 5006 includes FY 2005 funding for both SAMHSA and the National Institute Mental Health (NIMH). Under the bill, NIMH funding is increased to $1.421 billion (a $38.8 million increase over current year funding). This is the same amount requested by President Bush. HR 5006 also includes $20 million in new funding for the Bush Administration’s “Mental Health Transformation Initiative” – state incentive planning grants to support the findings and goals in the 2003 White House Mental Health Commission report.

The Senate has yet to begin work on its version of the FY 2005 Labor-HHS Appropriations bill and it is unlikely to pass the bill before its expected pre-election adjournment on October 8. It is expected that the bill will not be completed until November, and will likely end up being part of a year-end "omnibus" spending bill.

and here are the details on the omnibus: http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=eNews_Archive&template=/contentmanagement/contentdisplay.cfm&ContentID=16501

[divinedaydreams]

Here is the original thread about the father I was talking about.

http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24941&highlight=father

[waltersgirl]

Actually I think they were trying to press him by threatening to charge him with child abuse. I'll see if I can find something current on it.

they can threaten all they want. absent facts to substantiate the charge, no law enforcement agency will file charges. at most, the agency will take what is commonly called a "long form report", where the reporting officer lists the facts and states that there is nothing evident to sustain an arrest. the report is forwarded to the district attorney's office. it is very rare that a long form report gets filed by the DA's office.


eta: schools are mandatory reporters. if they believe an action or lack thereof is an abuse, they are required by law, as are hospitals and therapists/shrinks/whathaveyou, to report it to the local police. we receive a form faxed from Child Protective Services. in it are the claims made by the mandated reporter and whatever supporting information that reporter has. we are required by law to investigate those referrals. about 92-95 percent of the time, those referrals are either unfounded, or the referrals are a result of an investigation we've already conducted where the children were at risk and we took care of it...we're required to notify CPS of stuff like that.

[Col.Batguano]

Fortunately, that's not how screening for mental health disorders is done. Psychological assistants (people with master's in psychology) usually administer general inventories. If a kid scores high, they're assessed and triaged. Nobody associated with any kind of political power does any kind of labeling of anybody. We're just looking for people that are at risk so we can offer them services, if they want them or in this case if their parents allow it. More than that, we're not allowed to do anything.

Unfortunately, that is how I witnessed the Screening of mental health disorders where done.

I know everyone wants to believe that there is benevolent intelligent authority that does right thing when it is supposed to that you can give absolute trust in.
but life doesn't work that way.

[Jul]

Here's the bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/R?cp108:FLD010:@1(sr345)

[Jul]

Unfortunately, that is how I witnessed the Screening of mental health disorders where done.

I know everyone wants to believe that there is benevolent intelligent authority that does right thing when it is supposed to that you can give absolute trust in.
but life doesn't work that way.

That's why parents get involved so that when they're told something, they can decide from their own perspective if they think the professional talking to them is correct or incorrect. One inventory isn't going to label anybody anything. There are a lot of steps involved before anything happens. I'm just sorry that your experience was such a bad one.

[divinedaydreams]

Here is the link to Dr. Phil page discussing ADD and includes his talk with the father. He has his son living with the child's grandparents in NV.

http://www.drphil.com/show/show.jhtml?contentId=3002_parentingwithpills.xml


Thanks for the link Jul.

[divinedaydreams]

Here is something off the site I was wanting to share.

Obtain a proper diagnosis.
Many times, parents are quick to make evaluations of their children's unruly behavior. "I always look for other reasons, other causation, whenever I see behavior spinning out of control," Dr. Phil explains. The symptoms a child exhibits may be caused by factors such as divorce, death of a parent, or a change in school and living situation.

There are at least two well-documented ways to determine if your child has a neurologically based disorder of ADD or ADHD: a spectrogram or an EEG can identify specific patterns in certain parts of your child's brain.

[Jul]

I don't mean to offend here, but I'm not a proponent of Dr. Phil. The state of Texas revoked his license to practice psychology.

Here's a link with lots of sources from NAMI on ADHD: http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=3&ContentID=4551

[waltersgirl]

I know everyone wants to believe that there is benevolent intelligent authority that does right thing when it is supposed to that you can give absolute trust in.
but life doesn't work that way.

life is people. some are good. some aren't. not everyone is wholly one or the other. not everything is perfect and not everything is a vast conspiracy of evil. you shouldn't give absolute trust to anything that you don't personally understand. if you don't understand it, ask questions. if you still don't understand, ask more questions.

the "government" isn't responsible for teaching you your rights. that's your job. the "government" also isn't responsible for making your life perfect. there is no perfect and your life is *your* responsibilty. the "government" is also made up of people. see above paragraph. lather, rinse, repeat. if you think something isn't being done right, or handled properly then *do* something about it. don't just bitch and moan about how life sucks and people are evil.

[Col.Batguano]

I love how everyone on the internet is qualified to diagnose what mental illnesses are and aren't real. And that they're better at it than people who went through years of medical school.

Judith you made my point, but I don't think anyone else will get it.

and also I would like to say from experience, not everyone who goes to school learns anything, they just get a peace of paper that says they did.

[Shipscat]

ADHD should not be diagnosed by teachers, family doctors, or psychologists that come to schools and do screenings. Before you make the decision to medicate your child, they should see a psychiatrist and have an EEG, blood tests and any other medical tests that are applicable.

One of the reasons that should be done, even if you don't think it's a serious matter for your child to take ritalin, is to make sure you have the proper diagnosis and that there are no co-morbid disorders that need to be treated. Epilepsy, childhood schizophrenia and childhood bipolar disorder have been mistaken for ADHD. (Stimulants are NOT a good thing to give someone with bipolar disorder.) Tourette's syndrome, depression, communications problems, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, and Asperger's syndrome are often found with ADHD-my daughter also has OCD, which is not something I've found on the books as occurring together, but there is a cluster of symptoms in my family that suggest it may be on one gene together.

Dr. Phil is right in what DD quoted. I've seen kids with learning disabilities that show every sign of having ADHD when faced with whatever they're having trouble with, and no symptoms at other times. You have to make sure that the inattention is not an avoidance behavior for a task that they simply can't do.

If you've done the homework, and you do have a child that needs medication, it is not doing them a favor to deprive them of it. Kids don't like feeling out of control..if they are indeed getting the right therapy, they feel 'more like themselves' and more in control of themselves, which makes them happier, as well as making life easier for parents and schools.

But no, I don't entirely believe in a benevolent authority either. I've had too much experience to. If the mandate is simply to give people access to mental health care (and I'm sorry, those preliminary tests are not enough) then that's fine...but if it is to service the government's or the school systems need's, or if it is even mandatory screening, even with nothing that says you are required to follow up, then I am opposed to it. I also don't believe that kids should be poked and prodded unless there is evidence that they are not surviving as they are..that's really the definition of whether something needs to be done when you have a problem. How much is it affecting your life? If you're adapted to it, then you should be left alone. There are plenty of people in this world with psychiatric problems that were never treated that went on to do great things.. If you're suffering, then you need help.

[AgentSun]

the problem is not with people on the internet (like us) discussing this...we are not diagnosing. but we have seen things in effect and we can from personal experience, extrapolate that we believe these conditions exist in people and that is why we say they exist. we are not diagnosing and none of us say we are qualified.

i think there is a point where a condition stops being "oh she's just distacted" or "she just likes to daydream" and it becomes "there's something different, something that isn't normal" and that is where the diagnosing can begin, though what they diagnose is not always correct. i know a girl who is ADHD and just for the life of her cannot sit still. it's not an attention thing, or that she's too smart in her class, she's just everywhere all at once. they took her to the doctor because they really had no idea what was going on. she was diagnosed and now she is taking a light medication and she is doing fine. she still gets fidgety and active, but she's not off the wall.

[divinedaydreams]

I don't mean to offend here, but I'm not a proponent of Dr. Phil. The state of Texas revoked his license to practice psychology.

Here's a link with lots of sources from NAMI on ADHD: http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=3&ContentID=4551


No offense taken here. I don't watch him as a general rule but this topic caught my eye so I watched that night.

[Judith]

Judith you made my point, but I don't think anyone else will get it.



Not even me, I guess.

Everytime a discussion on ADD/ADHD comes up on the internet I am always informed that it isn't real. And I'm wondering how many of those people are actual doctors, rather than laypeople who have seen it misdiagnosed, and therefore assume that it's not real.

ANYTHING can be misdiagnosed.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means it didn't exist in the folks you met.

ETA: Or it means it did exist, and an unqualified judgement was made.

[Shipscat]

Some kids are obvious. It's the ones that aren't that are harder for people to make a decision about, I think.

Here's a way to tell (and let me say, in all the million times that people have asked me-you have a hyper kid, what do you think of mine? I've always said that I'm not qualified to diagnose, and they should get it checked out if they're worried.) One day, many years ago, I was early to a parent-child class..for two year olds, I think. Anyway, another woman was early and our two boys were running around the empty room, having a good time, which was fine with me. Well, the class started and other kids filed in, and my child sat down in the circle we were supposed to sit in and was all ears...and the other kids, too. Except the kid he'd been playing with before class, who couldn't sit still, was still revved up from playing, and eventually dissolved into a screaming mess and was hauled out by a very red-faced mom. They didn't come back, and I've regretted to this day that I didn't tell her that I had another one at home like hers, because that's what my daughter would have done. As a matter of fact, I would have done my best to keep her from getting wound up before the class, because I knew that she wouldn't be able to calm down again.

There is a qualitative difference between ADHD kids and kids who don't have it, not just a difference in degree of activity. On the other hand, ADHD and other disorders appear to be on a sliding scale, instead of being discrete and easily labeled disorders. It's very hard, and confusing.

[BillFrugge]

Soma

[divinedaydreams]

I had to look that one up. Thanks interesting read.

[LT Garrix]

Soma

Kind of a scary parallel isn't it?

[arthurfrdent]

somewhere in all of this is the idea that going forward is good and not going forward is not so good. the knee jerk reactions that many people in general have is more to do with something being outside the mainstream or out of what's accepted than anything. that goes for both sides of the ADD/ADHD equation. the problem lies within the response, and that's the rub. if you put a hyperactive child in a class with 30 children in it because of a budget crisis, you may have a teacher questioning why the child will not sit still and pay attention. meanwhile a teacher in a class with only 18 sees a little genius with lots of energy. the knee jerk comes in based on the reaction of society to those situations. if you make a nationwide bill that addresses a generalized screening process, how will it be implemented. is it another unfunded mandate from the feds that will have a haphazard application? will it be used by some to force some kids to fit a mold? will there be a veiled negative consequence to not getting such screening? it is for all these reasons that this MAY be a bad idea. to quickly dismiss it all, and say well drug companies have a vested interest, to say it doesn't exist just becaue you have never yourself experienced it, is JUST AS SIMPLISTIC.

Having high-functioning ADD is like having a hole in your life, that you can't quite see, and sadly even the most open minded person doesn't understand what it is actually like, because it is so all-encompassing. Kind of like trying to describe color to a blind man.

That it is finally understood enough to be argued about in this way, is very refreshing to me. And the voices that have seen nothing but the downside [because it can be large] that is to the GOOD because there are people who NEVER see the bad of something and you have to show it to them. HOWEVER, if you cannot see the other side at all, then you are simply a mirror image of those that feel it's all good, and nothing bad ever happens, and you sink directly to their level.

That we are wary of large bureaucracies implementing such programs speaks volumes about how those programs are often implemented, and I'd go for a local control angle on this issue. That being said, there will always be those parents and others that take a child with a mild problem and make it into something big, and there will always be those that insist that a child that is so disruptive that class cannot go on is just misunderstood. These people will exist regardless of law, government or anything else, so do we do nothing and have Albert Einstein sweeping the floor at the circle k or do we have THX take his meds and be an automaton. Or do we strive to find the path and do what needs doing rather than looking for extremes.

[/rant]

[waltersgirl]

the problem lies within the response, and that's the rub.

that's always the problem...and you can see it evidenced within this discussion. there is discussion and there is reaction.

Or do we strive to find the path and do what needs doing rather than looking for extremes. got it in one.

[Browncoat Serenity]

I knew I was going to get this kind of response.
What I experienced, witnessed, and reported - "Happened".
perfectly healthy intelligent kids got put on drugs for ADD when they exceeded the expectations of them.
the public school system in the city I was teaching, told there students that achieving excellence was a fantasy, and the teachers and counselors harassed me in some pretty nasty ways for telling kids that they can achieving excellence - I witnessed and experienced it.
sorry if you disagree with me, but it happened,
sorry if it offends you but it's the truth.
not just what I myself witnessed, but from what I hear from other people, and its usually along the same lines as what I said.

ADD sounds like the supposed Abraham Lincoln Quote,
"You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

sorry but school systems do get corrupted by other interest groups,
some politicians do have evil intentions,
Laws are only as good as those placed into the positions to enforce them,
and I have never seen anything that has convinced me ADD is Real.

sounds disturbing, wonder if anything will change ?

[trinamick]

My nephew has ADHD (and dyslexia) and is currently on medication. It is not a cure-all, but it is a definite help in letting him focus. However, I wish there had been an opportunity for affordable mental-health screening when he was younger. We went through a lot with him before he was finally diagnosed. I think it is rarely a good idea to make anything mandatory, but increasing awareness of an issue and offering parents another option can help to lighten the burden.

[AnnaSun]

Hi,

Interesting. I have a phycological disorder called Aspergers Syndrome. Very proud to have it. I think medication does help alot of people with metal help problems. The medication I am on does calm me down alot and it helps. I think ritalin is good for childern with ADHD because it helps them concentrate at school and at home but there are otherways to help a child with their problems other than medication. I have been seeing a therapist for my depression and anxiety and she's helped alot. Try other approches first to deal with the problem and if they don't work then go for medication.

What are other people's thoughts?

From
AnnaSun
Thanks

[BillFrugge]

Re: 'Brave New World' by Aldus Huxley

Kind of a scary parallel isn't it?

Which is why I bring it up. I won't take so much as an aspirin, and I see a society that tries to cure everything with more drugs. Huxley knew what he was talking about.

I have seen research that suggests that most of the problems we are having are a result of our diet. Nutrients have been removed that are essential to our health, and we're trying to remedy the situation with medication. Not to get way OT, but look at the rise in Diabetes. And how long has the peanut alergy existed? Rare maladies have become crises.

I suspect that if you look into what our kids are eating, you'll discover lots of sugar. Soda pop has become commonplace, and kids do not need that. Is it any wonder why some of them are wound up? We give them uppers and then prescribe sedatives. And then we tell them 'Don't do drugs.' I am very worried about what will happen to them.

[Clarsax]

Maybe this could help kids who are truly in need of medication and early treatment, but my concern is that a generalized screening will shuffle children into categories, and drug those who may be restless because they are too intelligent for the level the class is moving, who are gifted in creative arts and have trouble focusing on a rigid academic structure, or who may even be sleep deprived or not getting the right kind of nutrition at home. I've never liked the idea of blanket medication for groups who do not easily fit into the accepted category. I've got the feeling that many ADHD diagnosed children are really just kids who need an education that fits closer to thier style of learning.

[LT Garrix]

Bill, I'm with you on the diet. It's a reflection of our overscheduled culture that a lot of this has happened. Many people take the cheap and easy road of fast food. And I'm with you on the kids and soda. I personally don't think vending machines have any place whatsoever in our schools. And neither does the deep fat fryer. Yes, the vending machines make money for the school, but at what cost? And yes it's cheaper and quicker to fry stuff, but again at what cost?

I really wouldn't be surprised if diet was a large contributing factor to some of the maladies other than diabetes, which is already proven. Yes, some people would develop it anyway, but there would be much fewer if people ate properly and exercised.

I gave up soda for Lent one year, found I really didn't miss it and don't drink it very much, other than a mixer for my alcohol. But, there are people at work who drink 5 or 6 a workday. Yikes!

As a matter of fact, I thought I heard somewhere there was a recommendation of a specific diet to help mitigate the symptoms of ADD or ADHD and that it worked because these kids were getting propoer nutrition. I could be wrong and it might have been for something else.

[trinamick]

I was talking to my grandpa's VA doctor the other day, and her son is bipolar and has ADHD. She said that research is now showing that many children are misdiagnosed with ADHD when it is really bipolar. Who knows the damage the differences in meds could do?

[BillFrugge]

I think boredom is a lot of it. Some people learn faster, and grow impatient waiting for the rest of the class. When I went to school (all those years ago...) I remember that they seperated us into different levels. Do they still do that?

Vending machines in schools? I've forgotten that they do that now... I remember some stories about how some schools were even sponsored by Pepsi or Coca-Cola. I've been in a few schools around here that have TVs running in the hallways subjecting the students to all sorts of ads. Just what the frell are we doing to them?

I've pretty much given up on pop as well. I just felt like I needed to quit, and I've managed to stick to water and juice. Coffee is another matter... Just can't quit.

I think the diet/health connection is related to sugar. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, or confirm this. Essentially, the pancreas creates insulin twice a day. If you continue to eat all day, (especially sugars) you are forcing the pancreas to continue making insulin until it breaks down and stops.

[AyuRocks]

I don't know if I have much to say on the article as I have no real knowledge of the bill or it's implications. So I'll stay on the sideline for that one.

I just wanted to say I agree with the kids and pop (soda) thing. I never ever drank pop as a kid. Ever. Not because I was forbidden from doing so, but because I just always prefered (and still prefer) to drink water. I would never let my kids drink pop. I don't understand my aunt and uncle who let my cousins (10 and 6) drink pop basically whenever they want it. At least they give them the diet stuff, but it's still extra calories and sugar they don't need and it's gets them in the habit of drinking the stuff.

As for vending machines in school, I always bought water in HS. I knew kids who only ate stuff from the vending machines instead of packing or buying a lunch. That's certainly not healthy and is creating a bad habit for these kids. We had rules against hats and being tardy because people can't get into the habit of doing things because it's not something they'll get away with later in life...seems like they wouldn't want to make it easier for kids to pick up the junk food habit.

Which well.. I'm guilty of to an extent, since I get a lot of stuff from the vending machines here in the dorms, but that's only because I don't have anything to eat in the room and I get hungry. I kind of wish the vending machine wasn't there so I wouldn't be tempted to snack every time I was inclined to.

And on a side note.. I desperately miss HOME.COOKED.MEALS.

[BillFrugge]

As for vending machines in school, I always bought water in HS. I knew kids who only ate stuff from the vending machines instead of packing or buying a lunch. That's certainly not healthy and is creating a bad habit for these kids.

You bought water? Wow. Am I ever out of it... ;) Around here, I've seen the school bus pull into the McDonald's and Wendy's parking lots and unload. School food was never that bad.

And on a side note.. I desperately miss HOME.COOKED.MEALS.

This might help... "Clean your plate! There'll be no dessert for you if you don't finish your peas."