Teen Sues Over Confederate Dress [Archive]

AgentSun

12-22-2004, 04:01 PM

Teen Sues Over Confederate Flag Dress

Wed Dec 22, 1:57 PM ET

LEXINGTON, Ky. - A teenager is suing her school district for barring her from the prom last spring because she was wearing a dress styled as a large Confederate battle flag.

The lawsuit filed Monday in U.S. District Court claims the Greenup County district and administrators violated Jacqueline Duty's First Amendment right to free speech and her right to celebrate her heritage at predominantly white Russell High School's prom May 1. She also is suing for defamation, false imprisonment and assault.

"Her only dance for her senior prom was on the sidewalk to a song playing on the radio," said her lawyer, Earl-Ray Neal.

Duty, 19, is seeking actual and punitive damages in excess of $50,000.

She said she worked on the design for the dress for four years, though she acknowledged that some might find the Confederate flag offensive.

"Everyone has their own opinion. But that's not mine," she told reporters outside the courthouse. "I'm proud of where I came from and my background."

Duty, now a college student, said school officials told her before the prom not to wear the dress, but she didn't have another one and decided to see if administrators would change their minds.

According to her lawsuit, she was met outside by two police officers and principal Sean Howard. She said the principal intimidated her by striking the vehicle she was in.

School offices were closed Wednesday. Superintendent Ronnie Back did not immediately respond to a call to his home seeking comment.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans (news - web sites) has promised to help pay some of her legal expenses.

okay...first of all. KENTUCKY DID NOT SECEDE AND THEREFORE DID NOT HAVE A CONFEDERATE FLAG!

this girl is not only stupid, she's got no idea what her "heritage" is! she was told to not do it, and she did it anyway. she's suffering consequences and i think she's an idiot.

so i might be from virginia, but never have i seen the confederate flag so touted as in the south. is there a reason why the ties between the confederacy are so incredibly strong, even now? and why a lot of the people still sticking to it seem to still be living in the civil war and are extremely close minded sometimes? i know it's the south and there are a lot of concentrated areas and one type of people, but still!

LiLOrion

12-22-2004, 04:09 PM

Well maybe her relatives arent from Kentucky. :D

Some Southerners identify with the Union Jack like some Irish identify with...Guinness and bare-knuckle boxing (I'm the exception :lol) or some people identify with their religion or with their heritage in terms of country of their ancestors' origin. Who knows. :)

DRD2001

12-22-2004, 04:30 PM

There is a time and a place for everything. Bikini bathing suits are fine for the beach. They are not fine for school. This is why most schools have some sort of dress code, which covers offensive and inciteful clothing as well. This girl went out of her way to try to create a controversy.

Idiot.

Also, proms are really overrated.

LiLOrion

12-22-2004, 04:37 PM

Also, proms are really overrated.

Its so much better to just chill in your parents basement and raid their bar. :D

Lord Loser

12-22-2004, 04:39 PM

This could be an interesting case. If she set it up right, she'll win. Remember, proms are not school, rather they are school sponsored events like basketball games and football games. Dress codes for school, don't apply. If her dress was of an appropriate pattern similar to other girls dresses, then the material it was constructed of shouldn't matter.

The school would be best served to settle this quickly.

who45

12-22-2004, 06:59 PM

No Kentucky didn't secede from the Union, but you have to remember they still had very strong ties to the South. They were divided over the war...some were very strong Union supporters and others were very strong Confederate supporters. So maybe she was brought up as a Southern sympathizer :shrug: And I agree with LL, she could have a very strong case,especialy since the prom was not held on school grounds and really she was not dressed inappropriately. And last time I checked we still have freedom of speech in this country...well for the most part anyway. But that's my two cents worth on this subject. :D

Kathleen

12-22-2004, 07:11 PM

I have to agree with LL and who on this one. As LL stated, the event was not held on school property. It was at an outside place, therefore, school dress code does not come into account. If that were the case, then all those spaghetti strapped dresses would not be allowed, either.

As for the Confederate flag, I'm proud to say that I have one hanging on my bedroom wall. Not because of any prejudices but because I am PROUD of my southern heritage. That is all it means to me. I look at the flag as a part of my history.

So because of that, does that make me one of "those type of people" you referred to? And exactly WHAT is that "type"?

DRD2001

12-22-2004, 07:22 PM

I must have missed it. Where does it say the prom was not held on school property?

Kathleen

12-22-2004, 07:24 PM

I remember them saying it from the original news story earlier this year. It was held at a hotel, iirc. I'll see if I can find something on it.

mfa96

12-22-2004, 07:28 PM

Could it be a free speech issue, yes... a good reply might be that it's hate-speech...

I wonder- any African Americans out here who would be willing to talk about how they feel on the subject?

Kathleen

12-22-2004, 07:36 PM

Just so you know, this is the picture of the girl wearing her dress. The gentleman is her father, I believe. I don't see where it's all that tacky. :confused:

DRD2001

12-22-2004, 07:37 PM

:lol

BrowderChick

12-22-2004, 07:44 PM

I think its a nice dress. I dont really see the major issue about it.

Teraad

12-22-2004, 07:48 PM

It is definitely still a school event and the school dress code does apply, unless people would like to argue about field trips. Just because a school event is held off campus doesn't negate the school's responsibility to act In Loco Parentis. Staff members had to be present to supervise the prom. If no staff members were able to make it, the event would have to be cancelled.

As for first amendment issues, I'm rather surprised that some people don't seem to know that students aren't afforded all of their "rights". School is a place of education, not a political forum. A lot of people associate the swastika with Nazi Germany, even though many cultures used the swastika to represent many diverse ideas. The same thing goes with the Confederate flag. A lot of racist groups use it, even though some people just see it as a representation of their heritage. Because of their connotations, both the swastika and the Confederate flag are not school appropriate.

Also, people seem to be ignoring the fact that the administration told her before that she wouldn't be able to wear it, yet she showed up wearing it anyway. Did she seriously expect them to change their minds just because she was there in the dress?

Where is this $50 000 dollars coming from anyway? Maybe I should try to bankrupt money-starved school districts because I wasn't allowed to wear a Molsen shirt to school one day.

grinner

12-22-2004, 08:53 PM

These are the official Confederacy Flags...
http://www.confederateflags.org/images/SBVicks.gifhttp://www.confederateflags.org/images/sb132.gifhttp://www.confederateflags.org/images/3ntl2.gif

what she is wearing is not even the official Battle Flag, but one of over 40 different variations of the Battle Flag.
The Flags of the Confederacy (http://www.confederateflags.org/) has all the info that one would need to verify this.

Kathleen

12-22-2004, 08:57 PM

This is from the first paragraph of an article I found. There is a link to the entire thing following the quote.

This past May Jacqueline Duty, an attractive honor student in Russell, Kentucky, prepared to attend prom night wearing a special dress she had designed herself. It was a classically cut strapless sheath, ankle-length with a shallow slit on one side, and sewn completely out of beaded sequins. And it tastefully incorporated a symbol of her Southern heritage; a Confederate Battle Flag turned upwards so that the starry blue arms of the St. Andrew’s Cross appeared to lay across the dress as a sash would.

link to article (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1305397/posts)

StephX

12-22-2004, 10:04 PM

Maybe she just wants to get a role in the new Dukes of Hazard movie?

AgentSun

12-22-2004, 10:10 PM

So because of that, does that make me one of "those type of people" you referred to? And exactly WHAT is that "type"?

whoa, hold on! where did i ever say that you were "that type"?

and why a lot of the people still sticking to it seem to still be living in the civil war and are extremely close minded sometimes?

are you still living in the civil war like you are a southerner and all northerners are your enemy? i don't think you are.

i was referring to the fact that a lot of people have held onto the confederacy for such a long time over dispute and bitterness and it has made them close minded, and there are pockets of these people all over the south. they seem to be like they are still in battle with the rest of the union and they seem to enjoy it and celebrate it. there's nothing wrong with heritage and acknowledging the past deeds of family. there IS something wrong with celebrating it in a manner that is so persistent, you refuse to see people as other things besides "yankee". that comment was in no relation to the girl and the dress, it was a statement based on the confederacy and the longstanding dispute between the north and south mentality....even hundreds of years later.

should i have clarified? sorry you found it offensive, i was making an observation. i live in a southern state, i remind you. i see them a lot, probably not as much as i do in the southern part of virginia though. i see a lot of them in central and southern virginia. it doesn't change my outlook on people. but maybe that's because i'm asian and i don't have family that dates back to the civil war.

this girl was wrong to have done this. i don't think it was as benign as the article said it was..."she had hoped the administration would change their minds....." i think there is some kind of spite there. i think she did have distaste for the school administration...i know i would, if i wanted to wear something i had worked years on, and was told i couldn't. but i think she was very unwise to have worn it anyway, because she was warned not to, and was subsequently reprimanded of it. again, she is suffering consequences...whoa, what is this? taking responsibility for one's own actions? oooh.

oh, and is wearing the confederate flag upside down disrespectful? i know you can't show the american flag upside down. it's disrespectful.

Lord Loser

12-22-2004, 11:30 PM

The American Flag, when displayed upside down is a sign of distress, not disrespect.

Further on the matter, I was referring to the double standard being applied here. This was, quite possibly a sting operation. I don't know, nor care really. If it was a sting, then they're going to win most likely, because the school took the bait.

There are striking similarities to another high profile case in the south, but that one occurred many moons ago. It cannot be done, but I would be curious to see if those of you deriding this girl would take similar positions in that case. I wouldn't.

pendragon

12-22-2004, 11:52 PM

My two cents:
Obviously her father is a big history re-inactor (note his outfit in the picture). Like those of us raised by parents who frequented Renaissance Faires or SciFi Conventions, her perception of what is "normal" has been affected by her parents hobies/obsessions. Personally, I believe she spent a LOT of time on that dress (I would not sew with sequins!) and just wanted to wear it. She disobeyed the school because in her mind it wasn't offensive.
I don't think she deserves $50,000 (that is the lawyers getting involved, I promise you), but I do think the school over-reacted.

Teraad

12-23-2004, 12:07 AM

Out of curiosity, would the school be over reacting if it were to forbid a girl from Nepal who felt like celebrating her heritage by wearing a dress covered in swastikas from attending the prom?

The swastika is an ancient symbol of happiness and luck, yet what do most people associate it with? Nazi Germany and the persecution of the Jews. It's association with Nazis is why the symbol is banned in schools. Likewise, the association with racism is why the Confederate flag is banned.

grinner

12-23-2004, 05:49 AM

the Confederate Battle Flag is NOT BANNED. Neither is the Nazi Flag. Some people might consider them in poor taste, but they are NOT BANNED.

Kathleen

12-23-2004, 08:55 AM

are you still living in the civil war like you are a southerner and all northerners are your enemy? i don't think you are. Nope. Two of my very best friends in the world are "Yankees". ;)

i was referring to the fact that a lot of people have held onto the confederacy for such a long time over dispute and bitterness and it has made them close minded, and there are pockets of these people all over the south. they seem to be like they are still in battle with the rest of the union and they seem to enjoy it and celebrate it. There are people in my own hometown that are like that. The older people still sit and talk about it like they were involved personally. It's interesting, even fascinating to listen to, but they have a tendency to get carried away, and they don't like "dem outsiders". That's where I have to leave.

there's nothing wrong with heritage and acknowledging the past deeds of family. there IS something wrong with celebrating it in a manner that is so persistent, you refuse to see people as other things besides "yankee". I DO still call people from up north "Yankees". I don't do it to be disrespectful. It's just what they are-- Yankees. :dunno:

should i have clarified? sorry you found it offensive, i was making an observation. i live in a southern state, i remind you. i see them a lot, probably not as much as i do in the southern part of virginia though. i see a lot of them in central and southern virginia. it doesn't change my outlook on people. but maybe that's because i'm asian and i don't have family that dates back to the civil war. I think it was the vehement manner in which you referred to the girl as an "idiot". It was more of the TONE in which it was said, and not so much the words that sort of struck the nerve. But it's okay. :D :hug:

oh, and is wearing the confederate flag upside down disrespectful? i know you can't show the american flag upside down. it's disrespectful. Technically, she isn't wearing it upside down. It's being worn sideways. Notice the way the "Cross" is at her side, like a sash. Personally, I think the dress is beautiful, but I don't think we'll ever know ALL the details or just why it came to this between her and the principal.

trinamick

12-23-2004, 09:14 AM

Heck, I'm a Yankee, and I'd have worn it. I think the dress is a cool idea. Just because someone wants to be different from everyone else doesn't mean they're trying to make a political statement. Schools are so paranoid anymore about anyone who goes against the norm it's ridiculous. I think they need to pull their head out of their clearly uncomfortable position, but I don't think she needs $50,000.

Teraad

12-23-2004, 09:35 AM

the Confederate Battle Flag is NOT BANNED. Neither is the Nazi Flag. Some people might consider them in poor taste, but they are NOT BANNED.

You're right. I should have used the term "in violation of the school dress code". But otherwise, my point still stands.

DRD2001

12-23-2004, 09:36 AM

I went to high school in the 80's. We had a race riot because of one stupid and insensitive student, who will swear to this day he is not a racist. Things escalate quickly, and schools are no longer safe from violence. I applaude the administration that chose to try to prevent a situation from being created on school property.

And why does everything have to be about this girl. What about the students who would have had their prom ruined by being made uncomfortable by this dress whose design has for decades been used as a symbol of hate against them. I think she is a selfish girl, who deliberately chose to create an issue, without any thought or consideration for anyone else.

Digger

12-23-2004, 10:00 AM

trinamick

12-23-2004, 10:01 AM

Well, I guess that's a good point, DRD2001. The high school I went to never had real problems like that, so they harped on every imagined problem and made a huge deal out of nothing. We had a kid get expelled for wearing a Buttweiser, King of Rears shirt to school. :rolleyes: If it is something that is offensive to a majority and not just the admin, I can see where they would say she shouldn't wear it. I still think I deserve the $50,000 more than her.

BrowderChick

12-23-2004, 11:57 AM

I think I'm one of those "Yankees" ;)

:hug:

Each of us has our own opinions... :dunno:

Heres mine. I really dont care for the issue at hand. I personally think she should be allowed to wear anything she chooses. My Prom was in the 80's. You wouldnt believe what some of those girls were wearing. You wouldnt believe what some of the girls were wearing last year to many Proms I have seen. At least this dress covered her up. Also being that this event wasnt even on the school property..take into consideration of all the other kids that were either out in a hotel or off somewhere getting drunk. There is always a few that do this. I dont care if you did it or not...not the issue here. It was her choice. Whether or not I live or have lived in the South is also not an issue. Call me a wanna be transplant if you want. Heck..Im a down to earth country girl living in the city...whatever.... But you also have to remember that this is not our fight. Its her's and the school's. Personally I dont think the school should have handled it the way it did. I dont think she purposly did it out of spite. If she wins, she wins...If she dont, she dont. I personally had relatives that faught on both sides. Im a history buff and Im also a genealogist.

Also the way she wore the design on the dress was not meant as disrespectful. And the American Flag upsidedown is a sign of distress as LL said. Do you have any idea how many places I have seen where the flag was also displayed wrong? Banks and Schools alike have displayed flags wrong. I dont think she is wearing it wrong. She is not wearing a flag...she is wearing a dress that is a form of that "type" of flag. I have a shirt with the American flag all over it in various patchwork patterns... Am I disrespectful because it "looks" like a cut up flag? No I am not. You know those little ribbon magnets that people have all over their cars? Because the ribbon has red white and blue stripes on it and its slapped on the cars upsidedown..Does that mean disrespect? No it does not. But in all truth the blue part should be in the upper left corner of the display. To each his own. :dunno:

mfa96

12-23-2004, 02:56 PM

But you also have to remember that this is not our fight.

Respectfully, while that flag is used today by people as a symbol for racism, rape, murder, and other violence and intolerance, it is all of our fight.

Shipscat

12-23-2004, 03:17 PM

The dress does look sort of like the red area of the second flag.

Dad looks like a re-enactor.

Well, if she wins, she'll have enough money to get her cat cloned.

grinner

12-23-2004, 03:44 PM

but... it's better than duct tape dresses (http://tinyurl.com/f8xe)...
http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/gifimages/ductprom.gif

who45

12-23-2004, 03:44 PM

Well, if she wins, she'll have enough money to get her cat cloned.:lol

who45

12-23-2004, 03:51 PM

but... it's better than duct tape dresses (http://tinyurl.com/f8xe)...
http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/gifimages/ductprom.gif Well I've heard that duct tape could be used for almost everything :lol

LT Garrix

12-23-2004, 03:54 PM

Well I've heard that duct tape could be used for almost everything :lol

Except a ventilation duct. ;)

grinner

12-23-2004, 03:56 PM

Well I've heard that duct tape could be used for almost everything :lol
even Wedding Dresses...
http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/fashion/weddingdress.jpg

StephX

12-23-2004, 04:18 PM

Wow, that's actually kind of pretty.

Kathleen

12-23-2004, 04:34 PM

I took one look at it and thought, "oooooooo, shiney!!!" :rollin:

LT Garrix

12-23-2004, 04:46 PM

A little magpie syndrome there, Kathleen? :lol

Kathleen

12-23-2004, 05:08 PM

You know it!! :lol

All it needs is a little yarn and maybe a few ribbons, and I'd be all over it!! :rollin:

Maybe too much Secret of Nimh
:think:

Lord Loser

12-23-2004, 06:29 PM

And why does everything have to be about this girl. What about the students who would have had their prom ruined by being made uncomfortable by this dress whose design has for decades been used as a symbol of hate against them. I think she is a selfish girl, who deliberately chose to create an issue, without any thought or consideration for anyone else. Hmmm... well that certainly is a position that intrigues me.

Here's another real life situation for you DRD. The following is a true story:

There once was a girl from the South who decided to do something that she knew was illegal, not just against a school policy, but against statutes. One day, she did it, and it made several people around her very uncomfortable. The man in charge told her to stop doing it, but she persisted anyway, so he called the police and they told her to stop. She didn't stop, so they arrested her for breaking the law, and took her to jail. She sued them for arresting her.

Now, given this information, was she wrong for suing? After all, she was breaking the law, and not really being considerate of anyone else.

I eagerly await your reply(s) DRD, or mfa, or digger.

grinner

12-23-2004, 06:37 PM

I know where you are going with this LL... and also eagerly await the replies.

AgentSun

12-23-2004, 06:44 PM

i don't think it was a matter of considering anyone else. it's the south! even if kentucky wasn't a confederate state, there obviously were a lot of confederate ties there, since it was the south. the issue was a very small one...it was about dress code. she was told that it might be offensive to some people and was told she could not wear it. it was her own decision to wear it and violate rules. she knew the rules and she ignored them anyway. she made it into a bigger issue when she decided to sue.

and why is she taking all this time to sue? i mean, it happened in the spring...it's now december. was it a lazy sunday and she had nothing else to do?

Kathleen

12-23-2004, 06:51 PM

I"ve also figured out where LL is going with his question, and it should be very interesting to see what the replies are.

:frontrow:

who45

12-23-2004, 09:02 PM

ditto...what grinner and Kat said

who45

12-23-2004, 09:05 PM

even Wedding Dresses...
http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/fashion/weddingdress.jpg I had to look more closely because it looks like leather

BrowderChick

12-23-2004, 09:16 PM

Respectfully, while that flag is used today by people as a symbol for racism, rape, murder, and other violence and intolerance, it is all of our fight.
I was refering to the general argument in here...

grinner

12-23-2004, 09:28 PM

check out this dress...

AgentSun

12-23-2004, 09:34 PM

the white dress kinda looks like pleather. the red "dress" kinda looks like someone is into kinky stuff. that's a heck of a lot of pain, when you peel off that tape.

Mazinkaiser

12-23-2004, 09:37 PM

It looks like someone tied her up.

who45

12-23-2004, 09:57 PM

That thing is so tight I don't see how she can walk..sheesh

Teraad

12-23-2004, 10:00 PM

That thing is so tight I don't see how she can walk..sheesh

I don't think walking is the point here. It's more along of the lines of unwrapping the "gift".

Mazinkaiser

12-23-2004, 10:01 PM

good point.

BrowderChick

12-23-2004, 10:02 PM

At least her shoes match :lol

Mazinkaiser

12-23-2004, 10:04 PM

:lol

Teraad

12-23-2004, 10:05 PM

Shoes?

Oh, there they are. I was looking somewhat higher up.

who45

12-23-2004, 10:05 PM

I don't think walking is the point here. It's more along of the lines of unwrapping the "gift". well yeah there is that :lol

mfa96

12-23-2004, 11:22 PM

I say, I find it ironic that you are using something great about our country, the civil rights movement, and the wrongs it addressed, in comparison with a girl who is using the very symbol of that oppression (and like it or not, the confederate flag is a symbol of that oppression) that girl in the story was protesting. I say this girl is no Rosa Parks; nowhere near it. If I were African American, I believe I would be offended by the comparison (if indeed I got it right).

I do not mean to cross into the area of political discussion. I would hope we all agree that the civil rights movement was a good thing. I am merely answering a question that was asked. Sorry if this went into a Nebari area....

DRD2001

12-24-2004, 06:40 AM

I'm assuming LL is referring to the same situation. There are currently many laws on the books which are based on prejudice, racism, bigotry and ignorance. Until they are challenged, they will not be removed. We are talking about the right to live as a human being versus what dress to wear. But schools do have the ability to restrict certain rights and priveliges (like the right to bear arms), and so far, I've read no articles that suggest this event was not on school property. I'd still like to see the article where it says the prom was at an off property hotel. But I digress. It was a school function where the staff and state were responsible for the students and the event on location. Many schools have dress codes. Those dress codes are not based on bigotry, racism or prejudice.

As I said earlier, I've seen a race riot at my own high school, in 1984. Until I saw it, I would have never believed it. Approx 1000 in the graduating class. Mostly middle class students. We thought we were the norm. Race issues weren't the issues which concerned administrators. But through the actions of ONE stupid, selfish and idiotic student, all hell broke loose. It happens quickly, and it takes years to die down.

I still believe this girl was being selfish and self centered, and looking to create a problem, perhaps even put up to it by her father who wanted to push an agenda. And I would love to know what her date thought about it. As grinner posted, there are several flag choices she could have picked that would have still celebrated her southern heritage. She chose the one that was associated the most with racism, bigotry, oppression, violence and hate. And perhaps nothing would have happened at that girls prom, but I bet a lot of you would be degrading the administration if they had let her wear it and a fight broke out. I'll bet you'd be saying "D'uh, how could they have let her wear that dress? The administration should be sued for negligence. They should have known better."

Finally, I'm off for the holidays, so MERRY FESTIVUS!

Lord Loser

12-24-2004, 08:13 AM

:rollin:

Thank you both for your responses, they were what I expected.

Third EYe

12-24-2004, 08:48 AM

I missed one thing, was the school a private entity?

The girl wearing the dress, is an idiot, so are her parents, most likely, however being an idiot is not against the law. I see idiots everyday running free in society some of them in positions of authority, like law enforcement, educators, politicians, religious zealouts and so on.

This particular idiot has the right to wear the dress, and she should also understand that i have the right berrate her and call her a bigot for doing so.

Teraad

12-24-2004, 08:53 AM

She has a right to wear the dress in public, but not at a school (private OR public) event. The courts have backed up schools in their rights to dictate mandatory dress codes in school and on school trips. Students are not afforded their full rights while in school.

Twich

12-24-2004, 09:02 AM

I'm amazed...just simply truly honestly amazed at this discussion. Beyond belief....sheesh...

tedbragg1

12-25-2004, 07:39 PM

thought better of my comments. no need to add more hot air.

waltersgirl

12-25-2004, 08:35 PM

A teenager is suing her school district for barring her from the prom last spring because she was wearing a dress styled as a large Confederate battle flag.

other issues aside, if the photo posted here is accurate, that was a red dress with a blue diagonal stripe that could be described as reminiscent of or inspired by, but saying "styled as a large confederate battle flag" is a stretch. had she worn an actual flag dress, like made out of flags, i might have sided with the school but it's difficult to speculate without the full facts. did the school see the dress ahead of time? was she forcibly arrested or simply escorted off the property? i suppose the school could argue she was trying to incite her classmates, but absent other behavior that would articulate the girl trying to intentionally be offensive, or intentionally trying to be "hateful", i'm not sure how they have a case based on the dress alone.

edited for clarity

Kathleen

12-25-2004, 08:44 PM

did the school see the dress ahead of time? was she forcibly arrested or simply escorted off the property?

According to the article I read (link provided on page 2 of this thread), she had been working on this dress for 4 years. She had asked permission to wear the dress, and was told no by the principal. She wore the dress to the prom anyways, as she had worked on it for so long and wanted to wear something that showed she was proud of her heritage "as a Southerner". When she arrived at the prom, she was met by the principal and 2 police officers. The officers wouldn't allow her to even get out of her vehicle, and "allegedly" the principal banged his fist down on the hood of her car while screaming at her to leave.

She's suing the school for $50,000 in punitive damages, mental anguish, assault and numerous other things. I doubt seriously she'll get that amount. There was no damage done to her vehicle, her person, the dress was (obviously) not destroyed. About the only thing I believe she can get anything for is the mental anguish. :dunno:

waltersgirl

12-25-2004, 08:52 PM

According to the article I read (link provided on page 2 of this thread), she had been working on this dress for 4 years. She had asked permission to wear the dress, and was told no by the principal. She wore the dress to the prom anyways, as she had worked on it for so long and wanted to wear something that showed she was proud of her heritage "as a Southerner". When she arrived at the prom, she was met by the principal and 2 police officers. The officers wouldn't allow her to even get out of her vehicle, and "allegedly" the principal banged his fist down on the hood of her car while screaming at her to leave

yes, i read that as well. newspaper articles are not facts to me. that said, i can see where she may have a civil court case aside from the dress. the school can easily articulate that she violated their school rules and specific instructions to not wear the dress. that, however, isn't the issue. the issue is did her behavior, wearing a dress and driving to the prom, warrant an arrest by police. she wasn't even necessarily trespassing if she hadn't gotten out of the car yet. if it was off property, then she wasn't trespassing at all unless the location owners, not the school, said she was, and they had previously warned her that setting foot on the property, in that dress, would be trespassing. she's got a good case here.

waltersgirl

12-25-2004, 09:09 PM

there are three separate issues really...the first is, does the school have the authority to dictate dress code at school functions, and does that authority extend to off property events, if in fact the prom was off property. i couldn't make a solid argument one way or the other without reading all of the school's regulations and confirming where the prom was. and linked to that i think is, does a student have a right to exercise free speech through clothing choices while at a school function. as someone already pointed out here, minors' rights are limited.

the second issue is did the school have the right to have the girl arrested for violating a school dress code. that's where her lawsuit has good ground, i think.

the third issue is the girl's choice of dress. to me, that dress is ridiculously benign. i've seen more offensive ties. so it begs the question did the school even see the dress prior to their decision to not allow her to wear it, and if they did, what specifically made the dress potentially offensive to them? if the girl had been making this thing for 4 years did other classmates know about it? did they express an opinion about it? were they even asked?

Kathleen

12-25-2004, 09:21 PM

From what I've been able to discover, some of her classmates WERE asked about the dress (from outside sources.. press, mainly). They weren't offended by it, were a bit confused about the vehemence of the administration on this and were amazed by the fact that the girl spent 4 years sewing a dress that had over 50,000 sequins on it only to be told she couldn't wear it.

:shrug:.. I don't know where this is headed with the courts, but there have been other cases with similar situations that ended with a "victory" for the students.

waltersgirl

12-25-2004, 09:31 PM

i can see where the school is going to be concerned, as well they should be, about clothes that can be considered inflammatory in design or content. they have an obligation to protect their students as best as possible. the tricky part is how the courts will interpret the free speech aspect because she's a minor and it was a school function. she wasn't wearing that walking down the street or at a mall. she wore it to a school event after being specifically told she couldn't. the "told she couldn't" complicates it all hugely. i mean, if she hadn't told anyone and just showed up in it and the school had her removed, that would be a whole different can of worms.

it's definately not a black and white case.

i'm puzzled why they had police standing by. something had to precipate that. if i'd gotten that call from the local high school, i'd have told them to pound sand. i wouldn't waste law enforcement resources like that. it doesn't sound like the school officials just got a hair and called the cops preemptively, just in case. again with the necessity for details.

Teraad

12-26-2004, 02:58 AM

I'm not even in the States yet my school has cops at all dances, even the off campus ones. It is to make sure students are sober. We aren't allowed to use a breathalyser on students since we haven't had formal training. They also search students when possession of a weapon is suspected. From a legal standpoint, it's better to have cops do what they're trained to do than to open the school up to litigation and Canada isn't half as litigious as the US.

JadedLegend3

12-26-2004, 08:18 AM

I have no problem with her wearing this dress that is actually kinda pretty. I'm a yankee, but my heart lies in the South. I am certainly no racist, but I know where I would have standed during the war of Northern Aggression. Every history book I've ever read has said that slavery was dying out around the time of the war and that slavery was not even half of what the war was about.

I'm going to stop, before I rant. I just think that she is right to wear her dress, and it was not right of them to arrest her for it. Freedom of Speech.

mfa96

12-26-2004, 10:01 AM

I didn't read anywhere that it said she was arrested (as many here are saying). It just said she was not allowesd into the dance.

waltersgirl

12-26-2004, 07:54 PM

I didn't read anywhere that it said she was arrested (as many here are saying). It just said she was not allowesd into the dance.

did you read the article that started this thread? it's one of the last paragraphs.

According to her lawsuit, she was met outside by two police officers and principal Sean Howard. She said the principal intimidated her by striking the vehicle she was in.

I just think that she is right to wear her dress, and it was not right of them to arrest her for it. Freedom of Speech.

okay but the question isn't that simple because she is a minor and many rights are suspended while a minor. one of the issues will be was her choice of clothing in fact protected under freedom of speech, especially because she was already told by the school that her dress was not acceptable.

I'm not even in the States yet my school has cops at all dances, even the off campus ones. It is to make sure students are sober. We aren't allowed to use a breathalyser on students since we haven't had formal training.

we don't typically have officers at school dances. the local high school contracts with us for reserve officers to be present at football games but that's primarily for crowd control.

as to the student sober issue, that isn't the school's job, that's law enforcement's job. students using a breathalyzer on other students, even trained, is illegal. you've got privacy and civil rights violations. i don't know that the school officials could even do it.

a student could, if they had a hair, make a citizens arrest on a fellow student they believed was driving drunk, but that's a whole messy can of worms because the average person, adult or juvenile, doesn't understand the requirements of the law regarding a dui arrest...driving observations, probable cause, etc. the one student would have to actually witness the other student driving the car.

a kid drunk at a dance is just a kid drunk at a dance. it's not illegal. driving a vehicle while under the influence is illegal. being drunk in public is illegal, depending on the level of intoxication. standing outside of a vehicle drunk is not illegal, not even if it's your car. sitting inside a vehicle that doesn't have the engine running is also not illegal, not even if it's your car and you're behind the wheel. being drunk inside a building is not public and therefore not illegal. the details make all the difference in the world.

Teraad

12-27-2004, 12:00 AM

A school dance is a private event. We are allowed to exclude anyone we want to. Which is why students from other schools need to be signed in days before the actual dance. As for drunk students, they must be excluded because underage drinking is illegal. The school is liable if it lets in drunk students or students possessing alcohol. It's pretty much the same reason why university bars with wet/dry events won't let intoxicated minors into the event. There is no way to prove where they got their liquor.

waltersgirl

12-27-2004, 12:28 AM

underage drinking is not illegal. selling alcohol to minors is illegal. that's not the same thing. it is not illegal for a minor to consume alcohol at a private event with the permission of a parent or guardian. at least not in my state. it's also not illegal for a minor to consume alcohol in the minor's home, whether the parents are aware or not. it is inside the home. whether it's a violation of a "house" rule or not is not material.

It's pretty much the same reason why university bars with wet/dry events won't let intoxicated minors into the event. There is no way to prove where they got their liquor.

again, speaking only for the US...minors aren't allowed to purchase alcohol where alcohol is sold. they are allowed entrance if it's beer and wine and food is sold there as the primary retail...a sporting event, a restaurant, etc. no one lets intoxicated anyones into an event/establishment, adult or juvenile, especially if that event/establishment is selling alcohol. you as the host are negligent if you sell to someone who is already intoxicated. being a minor has nothing to do with it.

A school dance is a private event. We are allowed to exclude anyone we want to.

absolutely you are. what does that have to with anything?

BlackThorn

12-27-2004, 12:37 AM

Slight tangent . . . but I have to say I find it ironic that we raise our children, "our future," in an environment that contradicts everything our country and government supposedly stand for -- and people wonder why each generation keeps turning out more jaded and with the impression that they are powerless to change anything. Just saying . . .

waltersgirl

12-27-2004, 01:30 AM

Third EYe

12-27-2004, 06:47 AM

I'm thinking she means that the Consititution of the United States says one thing, and we raise our children teaching them by action that they really don't have the freedoms our Constitution states.

I agree that this happens, yet I have no issue with it occuring. The younger generation needs to learn that just because we have the right to do something, doesn't mean we should do it.

I think each generation turns out to be more jaded as the previous because of something entirely diferent.

mfa96

12-27-2004, 07:27 AM

did you read the article that started this thread? it's one of the last paragraphs.

I did read it, and I must be dense- all I saw is that she was met by police officers- not arrested. If it says differrent please show me. Thanks. :)

Teraad

12-27-2004, 09:16 AM

The last sentence of the second paragraph states:

She also is suing for defamation, false imprisonment and assault.

But nowhere does it state that she was actually arrested. I haven't been able to find any information regarding an arrest, so I'm stacking this up as an exaggeration on her or her lawyer's part. I'd be willing to bet the same thing regarding the claim of defamation, but there's no transcript of the conversation with the principal, so I can't be certain.

trinamick

12-27-2004, 09:37 AM

I'm still amazed that someone spent 4 years sewing sequins on a dress. Think of the attention span...

Twich

12-27-2004, 09:45 AM

I'm still amazed that someone spent 4 years sewing sequins on a dress. Think of the attention span...

I used to date a guy who was a professional indian dancer. He did all of the beadwork and feather work on his uniform. It was a nightly thing that drove me crazy...but I was impressed with his work on it. (And that he stuck with it.)

Her father appears to be a re-enactor. I've heard the same of them. They set a goal for their 'perfect' uniform and then they work toward that goal for years if need be. That sounds like just what she did. Impressive if you ask me. And the dress (IMO) was gorgeous. I mean...hand made? If I tried to hand make a dress do you KNOW what it would look like? :eek: She could sell that for a FORTUNE. Maybe she just found herself a business. Making dresses by hand....I'm impressed by the handiwork.

trinamick

12-27-2004, 10:14 AM

I can't even sew on a button and expect it to stay.

waltersgirl

12-27-2004, 05:50 PM

The last sentence of the second paragraph states:

But nowhere does it state that she was actually arrested. I haven't been able to find any information regarding an arrest, so I'm stacking this up as an exaggeration on her or her lawyer's part. I'd be willing to bet the same thing regarding the claim of defamation, but there's no transcript of the conversation with the principal, so I can't be certain.

why are you willing to bet that? because you don't agree with her actions?

Frellster

12-27-2004, 06:41 PM

Unfortunatly, the cross of St. Andrew, Southern Cross, or Beauregard Battle Flag (the version of the confederate flag the young lady chose to wear) is being used as a symbol buy the Klu Klux Klan and over 500 other racist groups. In the 1960s, opposition to the Civil Rights movement used it as a symbol of defiance against the federally mandated integration of schools. I'm not convinced that automatically makes the flag a racist symbol. Heck, it was used (in square format) on the battlefield partially because the "stars and bars" Confederate flag looked to much like 'Ol Glory and the soldiers were confused. A short time later it was adopted by veteran's groups. Now though, it means different things to different people. To most, it symbolizes southern pride. If this girl's father is a civil war reenacter, it may simply be a battle flag to her. Ofcourse the question becomes, how does it affect other people? - god - that's a toughy. Certainly, its now too controversial to fly at State Capital buildings, but shes not using it as a state symbol. Its a dress. Now I'm beginning to wonder why people rally around symbols anyway.

Wait a sec though. I was at a convention center, when a woman whose arms were covered in "white power" symbols asked me where the tattoo convention was being held. I directed her to the black professional's empowerment seminar, even though I knew which ballroom held the tattoo convention. After she left, the guy next to me turned to me and said,"cold." He was laughing though. I have never misdirected a person before. What compelled me? The symbols. Not the woman's behavior; but the symbols. I'm sure she eventually found the right room though - I mean how hard is it to follow the tattood people?

Teraad

12-27-2004, 11:22 PM

why are you willing to bet that? because you don't agree with her actions?

I'm willing to bet that because none of the articles I've found mention anything about the principal attacking her character to any third parties. Of course, in the event that evidence of defamation shows up, I'm willing to change my mind.

pendragon

12-27-2004, 11:54 PM

She could sell that for a FORTUNE. Maybe she just found herself a business. Making dresses by hand....I'm impressed by the handiwork.

She should list it on eBay .. maybe the casino (ref: http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31675) will buy it for $5000! :D

waltersgirl

12-28-2004, 12:09 AM

I'm willing to bet that because none of the articles I've found mention anything about the principal attacking her character to any third parties. Of course, in the event that evidence of defamation shows up, I'm willing to change my mind.

it's interesting, and i include myself here, how folks absent information will form an opinion that is influenced by how they perceive the thing they are forming an opinion about.

Twich

12-28-2004, 07:30 AM

That's a very profound statement. And the interesting thing to remember is that articles are written by people and edited by people. And nowadays, not many articles are written by different people. One news source tosses an article out there and everyone else snatches it up. They may rearrange it a bit...but no one does their own independent research these days.

Kathleen

12-28-2004, 07:24 PM

And that, Twichie, is why it will be most interesting to see how this plays out and how the media interprets the ruling(s)-- whatever they may be.

Owlman

12-28-2004, 08:14 PM

That's one of the funniest goddamn things I've ever heard Frell!

In regards to the flag, being a 10th generation southernor, I am proud of the flag, and my ancestors. They were poor as hell and had no slaves. They fought for brotherhood and their rights. (A new hisotry study says that Lincoln had no Consitutional right to invade the South).

Now, the flag, along with the Sons of Confederate Veterans have been hijacked by the Aryan Nation, KKK, and other such hate groups (at least in Texas).

I see no problem with the dress.

If she was doing it for her heritige, than I have no problem. If it was to communicate some kind of racist message, then yeah, she is a dumb ass

grinner

12-28-2004, 08:18 PM

there is a lot of evidence that states that the North didn't have any authority to prevent the South from leaving the Union. The 'loophole' wasn't closed until after the Civil War. It goes back to the Articles of Confederation and the fact that the Constitution was an illegal document.

JadedLegend3

12-28-2004, 08:20 PM

War of Northern Aggression

grinner

12-28-2004, 08:20 PM

War of Northern Aggression
depends on who you talk to

Owlman

12-28-2004, 08:25 PM

Of Course the same guy that wrote the book also claimed that George Wallace was a great American Hero, so that may kill credibility.

JadedLegend3

12-28-2004, 08:25 PM

Agreed

ETA: This was in response to grinner.

Kathleen

12-28-2004, 08:26 PM

grinner

12-28-2004, 08:28 PM

The fact that the North was in the wrong is a well known fact... IF you go by the Articles of Confederation. Since the Articles were never recinded and the Constitution was illegally enacted... The South took the position that they could leave the Union as proscribed in the Articles of Confederation. The whole war was fought over WHICH Document was the legal one. The Articles of Confederation or The Constitution.

JadedLegend3

12-28-2004, 08:30 PM

I've found a new interest in this thread, as I just found out the other night that my great grandfather was a Confederate soldier. I never knew this. I was talking to my dad about this thread and some of the opinions, and that's when he told me. I'm quite proud of my southern heritage. I always have been. I'm curious to see what happens with this case. As I stated in an earlier post, there have been other court cases concerning dress code, and what can be worn and what can't be worn. This, I believe, is just another line in that particular song.

My relatives were on the Northern side. In fact, we have the sword of my great x6 grandfather who was a calvary officer. I've been meaning to do research on him but haven't had the time. I'm sure he's rolling in his grave to hear me speak for the South. :)

Owlman

12-28-2004, 08:31 PM

The war also proved that A Republic is superior to a Confederacy, since governmental action took so damn long.

I always foudn the civil war facinating.

The superior soldiers of the South vs the Numbers and Technology of the North.

I really whish they made a moive about the civil war from the Confederate side of the war (and not a battle where we lose either).

Third EYe

12-28-2004, 08:34 PM

"we"?

Kathleen

12-28-2004, 08:35 PM

We were talking geneology after I had this conversation with my dad, and I'm going to HAVE to do a chart on my family... Of course, my dad's side would take several lifetimes, I"m sure, as there were 21 kids in his family. My grandfather was married twice. In the 1st one, he had 11 kids, and in the 2nd one, he had 10 kids. My dad is from the 2nd clan. My dad swears that most of his family were... umm.. well.. not always on the right side of the law. My mother's family are mostly from Poland. Daddy's family originally came from Ireland.

grinner

12-28-2004, 08:36 PM

The soldiers of the South weren't superior, they just were better shots. The were supplied/outfitted worse than what the typical Nothern Soldier was. The North had better rifles though, so the superior shots of the Southerners weren't up to the challenge of the Northern Rifles.

JadedLegend3

12-28-2004, 08:37 PM

Not to mention the complete lack of weapons factory in the entire South!

BrowderChick

12-28-2004, 08:42 PM

Owlman

12-28-2004, 08:43 PM

grinner

12-28-2004, 08:46 PM

With the deck stacked against them so high, it was amazing that the South held out as long as they did.

If they had fought more of a guerilla style campaign, rather than a face to face fight, the war could have turned out different. That style of warfare was not really developed at that point.
no, if they would have made more of the 8 inch cannons that their artillery used, they could have done more damage. These cannons were lighter and more accurate than the Northern 3 inch and 10 inch cannons. The Southern artillery used these with great success, but stopped building them.

spocks2

12-28-2004, 09:10 PM

JadedLegend3

12-28-2004, 09:14 PM

um...k...

BrowderChick

12-28-2004, 09:16 PM

Oh?

La Bomba

12-28-2004, 09:17 PM

:frontrow:

BrowderChick

12-28-2004, 09:20 PM

Kathleen

12-28-2004, 09:23 PM

Sorry to butt in, but being proud of one's southern heritage means acknowledging the legacy of institutional racism and the system of human ownership that was the economic and ideological bedrock of that heritage. Like it or not, you cannot separate the Confederate flag from slavery any more than the Germans can separate Nazi symbols from the Nuremberg Laws and state-sponsored genocide. For this girl to make a stand on her "rights" to wear the dress without acknowledging any of that is ignorant and insensitive in the extreme.

We have no choice but recognize what has been done in our past to keep us from repeating the same mistakes today. However, that being said, I am MOST proud of my southern heritage and.. just so ya know.. my family never, I repeat, NEVER owned slaves. Nor did they go out and become members of any racist programs. Nor did they lynch people or torture people or anything of that sort. Yes, there were people that did that, but THIS southern family did not. Just as I'm sure that there are those of German descent that did not take part in the Nazism of WWII Germany. It's stereotypical statements like this that are truly offensive. I'm sure that if you delve into whatever your background heritage is, you'll find something that your country/people did that you aren't too proud of. Does that mean we should turn our backs on where we came from? Or does it mean that we should pay a bit more attention to where we've been and where we are headed? For you to say this girl is a racist and a bigot is not just insensitive but, considering you don't even know her, is downright rude. Not only to her, but to all those from the South.

grinner

12-28-2004, 09:26 PM

:frontrow:

BrowderChick

12-28-2004, 09:28 PM

:lol grinner, those two guys look like they need a shovel at the rate they are eating that popcorn.

BlackThorn

12-28-2004, 09:29 PM

Who needs a shovel when you can have a trough and just stick your face in it? :ewink:

La Bomba

12-28-2004, 09:30 PM

:roflmao: Hey, we're hungry, okay?

spocks2

12-28-2004, 09:32 PM

Or does it mean that we should pay a bit more attention to where we've been and where we are headed? For you to say this girl is a racist and a bigot is not just insensitive but, considering you don't even know her, is downright rude. Not only to her, but to all those from the South.

That's just it, nothing about this girl's actions indicate that she has paid attention to "where we've been and where we are headed."

Kathleen

12-28-2004, 09:35 PM

spocks2

12-28-2004, 09:46 PM

Do you know this young lady? Have you met her? Have you sat down with her and asked her, personally, her motivation behind her actions? Or are you just as the rest of us are --- merely speculating at what you've seen in the media thus far? It is my opinion that you should perhaps think a bit more about what you are going to say before making blanket statements about ALL people from a particular area. Then again, that's just my opinion. I wouldn't dream of trying to tell you what kind of person you are, or what your motivating factor is for your posts.

Kathleen, I never made blanket statements about PEOPLE. I was talking about very real and very painful aspects of history and how symbols like flags are irrevocably connected to them. You're right, perhaps I should give this girl the benefit of the doubt. I will eagerly await statements that she grappled with this dilemna over the 4 years she worked on her dress and was told ahead of time that it would be a problem.

La Bomba

12-28-2004, 09:50 PM

*Nudges grinner and leans forward*

grinner

12-28-2004, 09:52 PM

popcorn... I want copporn... er... uh... :)

Owlman

12-28-2004, 09:57 PM

I think I'm going to stay out of this one.

Kathleen

12-28-2004, 10:02 PM

spocks2.... If you will take a look at the dress, you might find that it doesn't so much LOOK like the Confederate flag. Yes, there are similarities, and as wg said in an earlier post, the dress could have been inspired by the Confederate flag, but it is NOT an exact replica.

As for the comment you made, by all means, let's take a look at it, shall we?

Sorry to butt in, but being proud of one's southern heritage means acknowledging the legacy of institutional racism and the system of human ownership that was the economic and ideological bedrock of that heritage.

This girl said she was proud of her Southern heritage in the sense of being proud to be from the South. Not that she was proud of the injustices done because of some rich landowners that were perhaps a bit too lazy or too self-absorbed to do their own dirty work. Let me say this, though. It was not just the Southerners that had slaves. There were quite a few "Yankees" that owned them, as well. Also keep in mind that there was slavery for quite a few decades BEFORE the Confederate flag. Those slaves were owned and tortured and mistreated under Ole Glory. Should we take away the right to wear our patriotic colors, too? No? No. I didn't think so, either. It seems to me that you are reading much more into this than what is there. If you, by chance, have something this girl has said -- documentation, diary entries, whatever -- then PLEASE share it with the rest of us. I'm sure it would be most enlightning. So far as I can tell, this was the problem of only ONE person (the principal). I haven't seen any of the school board members or other administration/faculty/student body stand up and say that they were offended or upset by this girl's dress. So, let's just step back and take a deep collective breath, shall we?

spocks2

12-28-2004, 10:16 PM

Like you, I'll be most interested to hear the details of the case. But if this was a problem limited to just the principal, the police wouldn't have been involved.

And maybe I am reading too much into it. But it seems somewhat disingenuous to discuss this whole situation without addressing why the flag (abstracted or not) might upset people and assumedly why she was asked not to wear it.

And now for that deep breath. :)

Kathleen

12-28-2004, 10:21 PM

Ummm.. have you READ the article? The principal is the one that called the police and asked them to be there. It does not mention any other admin or faculty. This is one of the things that is under scrutiny and speculation at this point. Why did the principal feel the need to have law enforcement there when there seemed to be no "problem" with anyone else except for what was between him and the girl? That, among other things, is what has not been answered sufficiently enough for those of us keeping up with the case.

waltersgirl

12-28-2004, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by spocks2
Sorry to butt in, but being proud of one's southern heritage means acknowledging the legacy of institutional racism and the system of human ownership that was the economic and ideological bedrock of that heritage.

from your perspective perhaps, but not necessarily from anyone else's. she isn't a slave owner. she's a teenager. her family doesn't have slaves. she's a girl born and raised in the south today, not during the late 1800's. and that's part of the issue at hand actually. people's perceptions about whether she was honoring a proud southern tradition, or whether she was trying to be hateful.

mfa96

12-29-2004, 07:43 AM

Twich

12-29-2004, 07:48 AM

Thank you WG...I was thinking the same thing. And Kathleen.

Being German does not mean you ARE a nazi...and being proud of being a German doesn't make you proud of Nazis either. And if someone in your family was a Nazi, that doesn't mean that you are.

Same with the south. You can be proud of being a Southerner without being proud of slavery. And even if your family DID happen to own slaves...why is that something YOU need to pay for now? Hundreds of years later?

This is going to go off on a mild tangent, but it's one of the reasons I am SO against reparations. The people of today should NOT have to pay for something they were not directly involved in. No one in the modern day supports slavery...and it's over. Done with. Get past it. Nothing about slavery is holding ANYONE back today...and no one is 'owed' anything for something that happened centuries ago.

This is, of course, my own opinion. And I apologize if it takes it too far off of the original subject. But I really believe that people need to get past some of this stuff that is HISTORY and start realizing that it was a different era that WE are not responsible for. WE had nothing to do with it.

JadedLegend3

12-29-2004, 07:54 AM

The flag(s) of the Confederacy are today symbols of hatred and intolerance. Does anyone deny this? And this is not in specific to anyone here, but in reference to our country in general. Hijakced or not (like the swatstik turned around for the Nazis purpose), that is the reality for our time. Race issues are an unresolved subject in our country, and this story just proves that.

I don't deny that *some* groups use the flags of the Confederacy as their symbols for hatred and bigotry, but not everyone does. This girl seems not to have meant it to be used for that symbol, but as a symbol of heritage. To me, it is a symbol for the fighting for lost causes and the fighting for freedom from an overbearing government. I'm sure the slave owners got together and said, "hey! Let's make a flag so that everyone who sees it will know that we hate blacks, doesn't that sound like fun?" :rolleyes: I"m sorry mfa, but I simply do not agree.

Third EYe

12-29-2004, 07:59 AM

it is a symbol of hatred and racism, period.

an idiot is an idiot, dress or not.

JadedLegend3

12-29-2004, 08:01 AM

To some people it is a symbol of hatred. Not to everyone, and not to those who recognize the true heritage of the South.

Twich

12-29-2004, 08:25 AM

A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees.
-William Blake

La Bomba

12-29-2004, 08:35 AM

*yawn*:yawn:
Anyone change anyone else's mind yet? Has anyone seen the light? Or are we still just creating animosity amongst ourselves?
Wake me when someone "wins". :snore:

Digger

12-29-2004, 08:59 AM

Why did the principal feel the need to have law enforcement there when there seemed to be no "problem" with anyone else except for what was between him and the girl? That, among other things, is what has not been answered sufficiently enough for those of us keeping up with the case.Well, see, that's an interesting point. How do we know there wasn't a problem with anyone else? I think the school was in a no-win situation. If she was allowed to wear that dress and someone was offended the school would be vilified and probably would now be facing a lawsuit from the offended party.

trinamick

12-29-2004, 09:43 AM

4 years...all those sequins... :hypno:

Third EYe

12-29-2004, 10:22 AM

To some people it is a symbol of hatred. Not to everyone, and not to those who recognize the true heritage of the South.

explain to me the "true heritage" because to me it is one of hatred and racism, even today, I see that heritage being carried out.

everytime I have experienced racism overtly, it has been in plain view of that symbol, either a sticker on a window, on some article of clothing or the flag itself.

I've never heard anyone articulate effectively or otherwise what this symbol represents other than that of hatred and racism. The only thing I ever hear is "to us it means something diferent" or some similar statement of the same effect. Nothing of any substance is ever elaborated on. "it's our heritage" means very little.

My family is multi racial, being white skinned gives me a unique perspective that some overlook. When non-whites are not present, some white people have some interesting things to say about other than white people. I often find myself behind "enemy lines" so to speak, and many individuals who are very pleasent, polite and "tolerant" in front of non-white people are very racist when they percieve it's safe to be so.

JadedLegend3

12-29-2004, 10:32 AM

I refer you to my previous post, since you obviously didn't read it.

To me, it is a symbol for the fighting for lost causes and the fighting for freedom from an overbearing government. I'm sure the slave owners got together and said, "hey! Let's make a flag so that everyone who sees it will know that we hate blacks, doesn't that sound like fun?"

malachilenomade

12-29-2004, 10:35 AM

If the principle struck her vehicle, then she has legitimate reason for that... that's damage to private property.

Aside from that (and I grew up in the south), she was an idiot, pure and simple. She was told not to wear it but chose to. As such, she has no real claim but her own stupidity. No sympathy for the stupid... line them up, shoot them in the head... there are plenty of others outside the US that wants to make a life for themselves here and would be a greater asset to society with an obviously larger amount of common sense than this twit has.

The South isn't all about racism, but those are the more popular claims... the civil war wasn't all about owning slaves, ya know.

I have no problems with the confederate flag and I don't care about people claiming that it's a symbol of racism... get over the narrow-mindedness... it's just a flag, but if she was told not to wear it and wore it anyway, she deserves nothing but a bullet through the temple for being yet another waste of court time with a desire to make easy money. Oh boo-hoo, she missed her prom... I didn't go to mine and I could care less... at least I made the choice to not go... she missed her's because she was stupid and decided to wear something she was told not to wear. Who's the idiot here?

If the principle did strike her vehicle, then she has a claim there... but that's the only thing she appears to have a legitimate claim for.

Twich

12-29-2004, 10:44 AM

I just love all these terms rolling around here. Idiot. Stupid. Ass.

That's nice. Real respectful of a situation that we all know very little about.

ThirdEye, just because the racism you've seen has been connected with that symbol, it does NOT mean that racism is the ONLY thing connected with that symbol. It's just as narrowminded to assume that as it is to be racist. By your very thoughts/words here, you are conveying the same close-mindedness toward southerners (and/or the flag) that you hate so much in racism.

Third EYe

12-29-2004, 11:04 AM

Twich, I agree, my view is narrow minded, yet none have ever shown me any reason to be otherwise, other than to say I'm no informed. Nobody will inform me otherwise, other than to say I'm wrong, yet they cannot qualify why.

For the record, I do not hate anyone at all, use to think I did, and I realize now that I'm not capable of hating anyone. I do have contempt for many people.

I never said that those who are racist were close minded, if I did, I never meant to and it was a mistake on my part. I do beleive that they are, at least not all, and at least not in every situation they have in thier lives. I do not see being wrong, or racist, or even not a racist as narrow minded. I see ignorance as being narrow minded and I can be narrow minded if I am not given the information, if it exists, to make a more informed, reasoned descision concerning my opinion and thoughts on a subject. I can also be purposefully ignorant, which would mean that infomation is presented and I refuse to grant it the necessary scrutiny required to render a practical impression.

I can be presented with reasonable information that would contradict my position on any subject and still find cause to disagree with it, this is not narrow minded, it's informed consent, however idiotic my descision is. Do not confuse my use of the word idiot with narrow minded. There are plenty of narrow minded idiots, yet there are plenty of narrow minded geniuses as well.

I take note that you offer no explanation as to why it is not a racist symbol.

Third EYe

12-29-2004, 11:10 AM

JadedLegend3, I did read it and I require more than that as far as a reason. What are some of the "lost causes" you refer to?

malachilenomade

12-29-2004, 11:29 AM

I call her an idiot and stupid because she is. She was told not to wear it and she did anyway.

It's like telling someone to not put their tongue in a light socket and they jam their tongue in there with as much force as they can muster. These are not the actions of someone you should submit for "Smartest Of The Class Of <whatever year>." She is an idiot and she is stupid. Pure and simple as that. Yes, we don't know all the details, but what extenuating circumstances can you come up with to explain why she decided to do so anyway? What, as she claimed "decided to see if administrators would change their minds?" "Sure, Suzie... we told you you couldn't wear an outfit that some people would find offensive a week ago, but we've decided that's it's A-OK now!" It was stupid on her part, to make such a blatantly false assumption.

What I'M curious about is the "false imprisonment" issue... they locked her up? That's a tad extreme, I think.

My next question would be: Why? Why on EARTH would someone want to make a prom dress like that? I just don't get it... Again I state I view the confederate flag as just that: A flag... nothing more, nothing less. I just fail to see why anyone would want to make a prom dress out of one or to resemble one... it's not like it's a pretty flag... the USSR Hammer and Sickle flag looked better. What, heritage? The confederate flag isn't even the Tennessee state flag... what, because she's a southerner? Now that's just redneckish... did she go there in a trailer and carrying a bottle of moonshine as well? ;)

For those of you following along at home, I find this whole thing just silly as hell and the posts I'm making are pointless ;)

DRD 1812

12-29-2004, 01:44 PM

I don't see a problem with the Confederate Flag myself. It shows southern pride at the times. It leaked down through the generations of the deep south. Sure, have one hanging in your room, do do doo..cars. That girl, was looking for trouble..plain and simple. Some friends of mine who are different races don't get bothered by it. It's a flag.

Teraad

12-29-2004, 02:07 PM

If I were to get swastikas tattooed on my forearms, in plain sight, what would most people's automatic opinion of me be? That I'm a Nazi or support their cause? Or that I'm wearing symbols of luck and happiness? Would a jewish person who's been in a concentration camp have a right to hate me?

The Nazis took over an ancient symbol that was in no way tied to hatred and prejudice and made it into a hated symbol. The white supremacy view of the swastika is less than a century old while the happiness view of the swastika has been used for millenia. Maybe I should expect people to "get" the second meaning because it's a symbol of my "heritage" and something to be proud of.

Hopefully the parallels with the Confederate flag are obvious. Many symbols have been co-opted from their original meanings. That doesn't mean that the new meaning is invalid and people should disregard it and vice-versa.

Lord Loser

12-29-2004, 02:34 PM

It's easy to get side tracked off of the main issue here, and for the most part we have. Such is the evolution of any discussion.

The issue is not what her motives were or are. Nor if people would or should be offended by her actions. I don't agree with ThirdEYe's positions, but I do agree with his original post. She has the right to wear that dress. I don't care who told her not to, she has that right. She has the same rights as anyone else, and if she's been deprived of those rights without due process, then she's been damaged and she most likely will prevail.

I find it most troublesome that there are those here who would be more than willing to pick and choose which civil rights somebody else is entitled to.

Teraad

12-29-2004, 02:45 PM

You've got to take into consideration that it was a school event. Should I have a right to sue my school because they didn't let me wear a shirt with a beer logo on it? Schools have dresscodes that are legally enforceable. Even at events that are off school property. Otherwise students would be able to wear shirts with profanity on trips to Disney Land.

The courts have already ruled that it is permissible for schools to limit the rights of students. So she will most likely not prevail.

malachilenomade

12-29-2004, 02:52 PM

She has the right to wear that dress. I don't care who told her not to, she has that right. She has the same rights as anyone else, and if she's been deprived of those rights without due process, then she's been damaged and she most likely will prevail.

Um, actually, no... the principle has the right and it was a school function (even though it was held after school hours and possibly off school property, it is still a school function). If the principle, who is responsible for the kids attending, says "No, you can't wear that." then no, you can't wear that. In a situation like this, it would have been nothing for the principle to go to the school board, explain the situation, and they would back him/her up on it. I'm not saying she doesn't have the right to... not at all! But she was informed, by someone who has been placed in charge of that school as direct representative for the school board, who make the rules for the schools in that district, to not wear that dress. It's the same if the teacher tells you don't chew gum in class... that is the person in charge and given charge of their students, their learning and wellfair while the students are in their class. This is in no real way a "freedom of speech" issue... she was given a directive by the person that is responsible for the well being of all and given the authority to do so and she chose not to follow it... there is no violation of freedom of speech here.... and that card really needs to stop being played by people who screw up like this.

NOW, if the principle hit her vehicle, as was claimed, THAT is a different matter entirely (since the principle doesn't have the power to do so even on school grounds during school hours) and that is damage to private property. Was she arrested? The claim is yes and she DOES HAVE PROPER right to sue for wrongful arrest (a tad extreme, to arrest someone because they wore something they weren't supposed to).

Kathleen

12-29-2004, 07:57 PM

ShawnaTums

12-29-2004, 11:47 PM

alright - my question for the floor is this - if she was told not to wear the dress, but decided to try anyways (as a teenager i remember this phenominon was pretty frequent) most INTELLIGENT (or at least belligerant and stubborn *me*) would wear the said dress - but bring a spare in case - or even wear the spare dress inside and change in the bathroom.......which makes me think that this was about more than just the possibility of wearing her dress - if she sat in her car for twenty to thirty minutes - it was probably because she was too stubborn to leave - go home change and come back.....so though she may sue, in my opinion, for not being allowed to waer her dress that she spent so much time and energy on - she should not be able to sue for "missing her prom" since she easily could have still gone - if she changed clothing to something that the administration deemed appropriate - which makes ME think that it wasn't about going to the prom - it was about MAKING a SCENE.......

but those are my .02 cents about drescodes.....not even getting into whether it was wrong or right for that particular dress code to be enforced.......

on a side note - a boy was thrown out of a NH holiday dance for wearing a santa suit and hat, and his date was dressed as an elf.....they cited that it was uncomfertable for non-christian religions to be faced with a kid in a santa suit.......hum.......

waltersgirl

12-30-2004, 12:53 AM

it could very well have been about making a scene. the problem for purposes of this discussion is that we don't know, so we can't attribute what we *think* was her goal.

waltersgirl

12-30-2004, 12:58 AM

To answer the question of whether or not she was arrested, I've done some looking around and asking some questions, and discovered that she was not arrested in the sense of being placed in handcuffs and taken to jail. The false imprisonment claim in her lawsuit pertains to this: She was forced to remain in her vehicle by the police through "intimidation" for an extended period of time. Apparently it was for quite a while. A few minutes in her vehicle is not long enough to cry false imprisonment. More than 20 or 30 minutes is, however, if she was asking to be allowed out of her vehicle and they wouldn't let her. She was NOT on school property, so unless the owners of the establishment came out and said she could not get out of her car on their property, then the police had no cause to keep her in it. This is a civil matter, so the police had no right to keep her there because they did not have probable cause that she had committed a crime or was going to commit a crime. The principal had no rights to keep her in her vehicle, either, as he was not within in his "jurisdiction". His "jurisdiction" was in the room where the event was being held. The parking lot was not a part of that area. He was outside his rights, as were the officers. This was what I was told when I asked some law enforcement buddies of mine about this.

especially because she was a minor. there are very.strict.rules about the detention of juveniles, under what conditions a detention is allowed, what constitutes a detention and for how long. if she wasn't free to leave, then she was being detained. absent a crime, that's illegal. she can be detained for the reasonable amount of time it would take law enforcement to determine if a crime occurred but from this info, it doesn't sound like they were conducting an investigation but rather keeping her from exiting her vehicle. that's illegal.

again though, it's all speculation because we are absent the details required to make a reasonable assessment.

LT Garrix

12-30-2004, 07:44 AM

Shawna, that's sad that we have hit that amount of religious intolerance for Christianity. I just can't even really comment on that. I think we had another thread about that. And let's not forget that fact that Santa is NOT a Christian symbol but a secular symbol. Yes, he has basis in a religious figure, but Santa has actually become the symbol of holiday commercialism.

So I guess next year we can expect all the holiday specials to not be broadcast. Now I dread the coming of Easter.

malachilenomade

12-30-2004, 03:29 PM

waltersgirl

12-30-2004, 03:32 PM

Yes, he has basis in a religious figure, but Santa has actually become the symbol of holiday commercialism.

i don't think i'd agree with that.

malachilenomade

12-30-2004, 03:32 PM

on a side note - a boy was thrown out of a NH holiday dance for wearing a santa suit and hat, and his date was dressed as an elf.....they cited that it was uncomfertable for non-christian religions to be faced with a kid in a santa suit.......hum.......

That's right, Christians! Welcome to America... where being a Christian is a crime (so to speak). Be tolerant of all religions except your own.

Thank God for atheists :D

Owlman

12-30-2004, 04:08 PM

Thank God for atheists :D

Um... Thanks...

What kind of atheist hates Santa? If it was Jesus-Claus, I could see it (I don't care what religon is around alsong as its not forced on me). That is just ridiculous.

Hyper sensative Atheists give us a bad name, just like guys like Fallwell give Conservative Christians a bad name.

AgentSun

12-30-2004, 04:19 PM

i think the media gives everyone a bad name. the "leaders" of certain groups like athiests or conservative christians are slammed by different aspects of the media in general and are in a big tug of war.

jerry falwell isn't a horrible person...there are times where i'd cross the street to avoid him, but that happens with a lot of different people. i think different perspectives are why we look at certain groups of people with disdain. a lot of people have had misconceptions about me simply because i choose to associate myself with falwell. it's because they've looked at what the media has said and has deduced from what they have heard that i am like the stereotype they perceive me to be.

Mike0812

12-30-2004, 07:10 PM

i don't think i'd agree with that.

Me neither. Santa Clause is based on the Bishop Nicholas or St-Nicholas from Smyrna (present day Izmir in Western Turkey). He lived in the 4th century and was a rich and genuinely kind man, especially towards children.

Ironically enough, in Greece, Santa Claus is based on St-Basil who also lived in the 4th century and was from Caesarea (present day Kayseri) in Cappadocia, who is celebrated on New Year's Day. Needless to say, it's a big holiday! :D (I oughta know, it's both my mum's and my uncle's name days AND her Bday to boot).

We now return to our regularly scheduled program. :D

malachilenomade

01-03-2005, 05:53 AM

(I oughta know, it's both my mum's and my uncle's name days AND her Bday to boot).

"Name days?" :confused:

Mike0812

01-03-2005, 01:54 PM

"Name days?" :confused:

Name-day (Gr. Onomastiria or Onomastiki eorti). The tradition of the Orthodox people to celebrate one's name-day instead of a birthday. Since the Orthodox people are usually named after a saint's name, all those having the same name celebrate together. Celebration of the name-day is considered to be spiritually important, and the celebrating individual develops special spiritual ties with his Patron Saint and, consequently, with God.

link (http://www.essene.com/B'nai-Amen/odict.htm)

My mum's name is Vasiliki which is after Saint-Basil or Vasil (equivalent of William or Bill) who also happens to be the Greek version of Santa Claus. Traditionally, one's Name-day is seen as much more important than one's BDay. Her Name-day is on January first, as is her Bday. So, she's gotten pretty much gipped in terms of gifts ;)

malachilenomade

01-03-2005, 02:22 PM

link (http://www.essene.com/B'nai-Amen/odict.htm)

My mum's name is Vasiliki which is after Saint-Basil or Vasil (equivalent of William or Bill) who also happens to be the Greek version of Santa Claus. Traditionally, one's Name-day is seen as much more important than one's BDay. Her Name-day is on January first, as is her Bday. So, she's gotten pretty much gipped in terms of gifts ;)

Thanks! Was kinda curious about that... and to tell the truth, about 2 seconds before I read your explination, I suddenly knew the answer because I had heard it before from a friend in France a few years ago (yeah, I'm an idiot ;)).

stellar

01-06-2005, 08:54 AM

It's an interesting legal question. She has the right to wear it becaus of freedom of expression. It's the same right that give the Alabama judge the right to inscribe the Ten Commandments (or whatever else he'd like to inscribe) on his robe (personally I'd like to see the lyrics from November Rain or something, but to each his own).

However the school has the right to refuse service or entry. No shoes, no shirt, no service. But does their refusal interfere with her constitutional right to free speech? How the hell should I know... I'm an engineer.

trinamick

01-06-2005, 01:22 PM

It's the same right that give the Alabama judge the right to inscribe the Ten Commandments (or whatever else he'd like to inscribe) on his robe (personally I'd like to see the lyrics from November Rain or something, but to each his own).

:lol That one judge awhile back should have had the lyrics to "Touch Myself" inscribed on his robe. Sinner.

BrowderChick

01-06-2005, 01:36 PM

:lol That one judge awhile back should have had the lyrics to "Touch Myself" inscribed on his robe. Sinner.
:roflmao:

Maraudee

01-06-2005, 03:07 PM

The Confederate flag, I think, is thought of as much as a show of defiance against the victorious North after the humiliation of the South's post-war military occupation as for pride in their heritage, especially the bravery and gallantry of long-dead young men who fought and died under that flag 140 years ago. I can understand that for the South the flag can be viewed as a way to respect the fallen. I like to consider my wearing of Union blue likewise honors the Army of the Ohio and the forgotten battles it fought in the western campaigns while the (at the time) less successful Army of the Potomac was getting a series of very public beatings by the Army of Northern Virginia.

The thing about symbols of defiance are, the more you oppose them, the more tightly they are held onto. Telling Southerners that the flag is racist, etc. isn't going to make them relinquish it, though it will probably anger them and make them display it even more prominently. The Stars and Bars has an an antiauthoritative, rebellious air to it by definition.

However the issue of Dress Code versus Freedom of Speech is ACLU territory, not an aspiring historian's turf.