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AxezCore
02-28-2005, 06:47 AM
SOURCE (http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp)
America by the numbers
No. 1?

by Michael Ventura
February 23, 2005

No concept lies more firmly embedded in our national character than the notion that the USA is "No. 1," "the greatest." Our broadcast media are, in essence, continuous advertisements for the brand name "America Is No. 1." Any office seeker saying otherwise would be committing political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled "un-American." We're an "empire," ain't we? Sure we are. An empire without a manufacturing base. An empire that must borrow $2 billion a day from its competitors in order to function. Yet the delusion is ineradicable. We're No. 1. Well...this is the country you really live in:

* The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
* The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
* "The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).
* Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!
* "The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).
* "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).
* Nevertheless, Congress cut funds to the National Science Foundation. The agency will issue 1,000 fewer research grants this year (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004).
* Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28 percent last year. Foreign student enrollment on all levels fell for the first time in three decades, but increased greatly in Europe and China. Last year Chinese grad-school graduates in the U.S. dropped 56 percent, Indians 51 percent, South Koreans 28 percent (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). We're not the place to be anymore.
* The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was]...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.
* "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country? Anyway, that's the company we're keeping.
* Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)
* "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty.
* Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).
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* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).
* "Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its workforce in the 1980s.... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1 percent" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.
* "Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies" (The European Dream, p.66). "In a recent survey of the world's 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one were European" (The European Dream, p.69).
* "Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European.... In the chemical industry, the European company BASF is the world's leader, and three of the top six players are European. In engineering and construction, three of the top five companies are European.... The two others are Japanese. Not a single American engineering and construction company is included among the world's top nine competitors. In food and consumer products, Nestlé and Unilever, two European giants, rank first and second, respectively, in the world. In the food and drugstore retail trade, two European companies...are first and second, and European companies make up five of the top ten. Only four U.S. companies are on the list" (The European Dream, p.68).
* The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).
* U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).
* Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million--one in five--unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005).
* Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40 percent of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.
* Sometime in the next 10 years Brazil will probably pass the U.S. as the world's largest agricultural producer. Brazil is now the world's largest exporter of chickens, orange juice, sugar, coffee, and tobacco. Last year, Brazil passed the U.S. as the world's largest beef producer. (Hear that, you poor deluded cowboys?) As a result, while we bear record trade deficits, Brazil boasts a $30 billion trade surplus (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* As of last June, the U.S. imported more food than it exported (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004). That's more than a third. Way more. If more than a third of Iraqis don't show for their election, no country in the world will think that election legitimate.
* One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house (CNN, Dec. 10, 2004).
* "Americans are now spending more money on gambling than on movies, videos, DVDs, music, and books combined" (The European Dream, p.28).
* "Nearly one out of four Americans [believe] that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32).
* Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004).
* "Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004).
* "The International Association of Chiefs of Police said that cuts by the [Bush] administration in federal aid to local police agencies have left the nation more vulnerable than ever" (USA Today, Nov. 17, 2004).

No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.

The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

NYPinTA
02-28-2005, 07:46 AM
Sad.

"The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but ... and delusion."

Don't knock delusion. Works for me. :spin:

I-am-so-Johns-girl
02-28-2005, 07:50 AM
Yikes! :(

DRD2001
02-28-2005, 08:01 AM
Statistics don't lie. But the people manipulating the figures do.

I'm not saying everything listed is wrong, or right. But there were several statements I found questionable in their presentation and omission of supporting facts.

Judith
02-28-2005, 08:02 AM
I'm not saying everything listed is wrong, or right. But there were several statements I found questionable in their presentation and omission of supporting facts.
:yes:

malachilenomade
02-28-2005, 08:37 AM
The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion

At least we're #1 at something :aok:

(though, that latter part sounds like someone with an axe to grind more than anything else...)

Eh, screw it... who cares? Be happy in our madness... could be all we have :D

kechara420
02-28-2005, 09:11 AM
I wonder how credible a source this book "The European Dream" is.

I agree that some of these statements may be biased. Unfortunately, some of them are simple, sad truth.

* The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
* The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80).
* Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)
* "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81).
* Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004). That's more than a third.
* "Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004).

LiLOrion
02-28-2005, 09:21 AM
Quote:
The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion

Big guns, big spenders, big deficit..of course we're going to be a bit delusional! :woohoo:

malachilenomade
02-28-2005, 10:00 AM
I was curious about this:

* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).

Now, the way I'm reading this, it's is telling me that only Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate. The way all the other statistics are written, this means that there are 40 other nations with a higher infant mortality rate... so how does is this help proof that we're worthless? :dunno: The rest of it is listed as we're bottom of the barrell, but this one would mean that we're doing pretty damned good compared to 40 other countries.

But hey, who am I? I didn't take the vast majority of my statistics from one book...

LiLOrion
02-28-2005, 10:08 AM
That could be part of the spin of the article I guess. Cause thats they way I read it too, but if you read in the context of the other stats, you might take it to mean that the US has a very high percantage of infant deaths.

malachilenomade
02-28-2005, 10:13 AM
Perhaps, but taken in context with the rest of the statistics, it would mean that there are 40 other countries with higher infant death.

That's just the way I'm reading it and I could be reading horribly wrong ;)

DRD2001
02-28-2005, 10:16 AM
Depends on what they mean. Do they mean that the US has a higher percentage than Cuba or a higher number? If the US has 1000 women give birth and 10% die, that is 100 children. If Cuba has only 500 women giving birth and 75 children die, that is fewer than the US, but the percentage rate is higher at 15%.

Judith
02-28-2005, 10:23 AM
Doesn't this thread border dangerously on the politics thing anyway?

StephX
02-28-2005, 10:45 AM
:squish:

This does read like someone has an axe to grind. :rolleyes:

LiLOrion
02-28-2005, 10:57 AM
Perhaps, but taken in context with the rest of the statistics, it would mean that there are 40 other countries with higher infant death.

That's just the way I'm reading it and I could be reading horribly wrong ;)


I hate stats... :D and math, which is why we are #28 :lol

What I meant was that, it seems that in most of the other stats, a higher number is a bad thing. In this case, the higher number seems to be better. You'd rather the US be 40th then 10th in infant mortality rates.

stellar
02-28-2005, 01:46 PM
I don't think this teeters on political bickering. It's taken many Democratic and Republican administrations to generate these numbers.

Judith
02-28-2005, 01:50 PM
It's taken many Democratic and Republican administrations to generate these numbers.


Point taken. I agree, a lot of the problems of today seem to be a result of a collaborative effort.

stellar
02-28-2005, 02:22 PM
...a lot of the problems of today seem to be a result of a collaborative effort.

Or lack of a collaborative effort.

Zegota
02-28-2005, 03:19 PM
Can someone say "bias?"

Antrobus
02-28-2005, 03:50 PM
Now we can't have people being too smart, they might "catch on"! ;)

Generally when infant mortality is ranked its ranked from best to worst, meaning whoever is number one has the lowest infant mortality rate. So, as I understand that article there are 40 countries that have a lower IMR than the US.

I do know that the IMR in the US is much higher than it should be for a country with the reputation of the US. This has been an embarrassment for quite a few years. The US can't seem to get a handle on getting people to understand the importance of prenatal care.

Having worked in an inner city health clinic for a number of years I found it apalling how many women would appear nearly ready to give birth for their first prenatal work up. So one can only imagine how many show up in labor at hospitals having had no prenatal care.

grinner
02-28-2005, 04:13 PM
...blahblahblah...

So, tell me Axez... where is Denmark by the numbers... or any other European/African/Asian/whatever?

Exactly what is your purpose for posting this? More US bashing from Europe? There are a number of US writers who hate the US and love to be pessimistic about it... this is just such an article. So, tell me, what is your agenda?

Nhoj
02-28-2005, 04:31 PM
Another thing to take into account is today's litigious society. Many Obstetricians have left their practice because they can't afford the malpractice insurance, which is obscenely high, even if they have never been personally sued. Many people believe they have the absolute right to have a healthy baby and if even the slightest thing is wrong they sue the Doctor. Life is about chances, nothings guaranteed and sometimes that means you don't get what you feel you deserve. I wonder how much of today's infant mortality is due to the fact that a woman needs to go to the next county or even another state to find a qualified Doctor? That's if she even has the medical coverage to afford a qualified Doctor. Many women wait till they're ready to give birth then go to the emergency room because then the hospital has to take them. What effect does this have on infant mortality? E.R. Doctors are great at what they do but they don't beat a trained specialist. :(

AgentSun
02-28-2005, 04:58 PM
the US quite possibly has a higher infant mortality rate because....there are more infants. positive correlation states that the increase in the rate of _____ will cause the increase of a rate in _____. it's very simple. the higher rate of dangerous weapons, the higher rate of death caused by those dangerous weapons. same with this. the larger number of infants, the possibility stands that there will be a higher infant mortality rate, if the circumstances are normal.

Nicola
02-28-2005, 05:44 PM
Well I went to the source of the article in the NY Times. I actually remember reading it last month when it came out. I was only able to quote a few lines from the article as it has been archived, but if you are interested in reading more you can buy the article.

Health Care? Ask Cuba (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00914F93D5C0C718DDDA80894DD4044 82&incamp=archive:search)

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF (NYT) Op-Ed 823 words
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 21 , Column 5

ABSTRACT - Nicholas D Kristof Op-Ed column deplores infant mortality rates in United States, which is higher than rate for Cuba, China and 39 other countries; says that even more troubling, infant mortality rate in United States has worsened recently (M)

This is actually quite a bad statistic especially compared with Cuba and China.

B Sharp
02-28-2005, 06:13 PM
Some stats (source- http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm )

Rank Country Value / Unit
1. Japan 3.30 deaths/1,000 live births
2. Sweden 3.42 deaths/1,000 live births
3. Iceland 3.50 deaths/1,000 live births
4. Singapore 3.57 deaths/1,000 live births
5. Finland 3.73 deaths/1,000 live births
6. Norway 3.87 deaths/1,000 live births
7. Andorra 4.06 deaths/1,000 live births
8. Germany 4.23 deaths/1,000 live births
9. Netherlands 4.26 deaths/1,000 live births
10. Austria 4.33 deaths/1,000 live births
11. Switzerland 4.36 deaths/1,000 live births
12. France 4.37 deaths/1,000 live births
13. Macau 4.42 deaths/1,000 live births
14. Slovenia 4.42 deaths/1,000 live births
15. Spain 4.54 deaths/1,000 live births
16. Belgium 4.57 deaths/1,000 live births
17. Luxembourg 4.65 deaths/1,000 live births
18. Australia 4.83 deaths/1,000 live births
19. Liechtenstein 4.85 deaths/1,000 live births
20. Canada 4.88 deaths/1,000 live births
21. Denmark 4.90 deaths/1,000 live births
22. United Kingdom 5.28 deaths/1,000 live births
23. Ireland 5.34 deaths/1,000 live births
24. Czech Republic 5.37 deaths/1,000 live births
25. Malta 5.62 deaths/1,000 live births
26. Hong Kong 5.63 deaths/1,000 live births
27. Monaco 5.63 deaths/1,000 live births
28. Portugal 5.73 deaths/1,000 live births
29. San Marino 5.97 deaths/1,000 live births
30. New Zealand 6.07 deaths/1,000 live births
31. Greece 6.12 deaths/1,000 live births
32. Aruba 6.14 deaths/1,000 live births
33. Italy 6.19 deaths/1,000 live births
34. Taiwan 6.65 deaths/1,000 live births
35. United States 6.75 deaths/1,000 live births
36. Croatia 6.92 deaths/1,000 live births
37. Cuba 7.15 deaths/1,000 live births
38. Korea, South 7.31 deaths/1,000 live births
39. Israel 7.37 deaths/1,000 live births
40. Cyprus 7.54 deaths/1,000 live births
41. New Caledonia 8.06 deaths/1,000 live births
42. Reunion 8.13 deaths/1,000 live births
43. Slovakia 8.55 deaths/1,000 live births
44. Hungary 8.58 deaths/1,000 live births
45. Cayman Islands 8.64 deaths/1,000 live births

This may be older / newer than the Times article; I think the point is that the US is not anywhere near the top of the list, no matter how you slice/dice it.

Oh- and a lot of the countries that are higher/better on this list rank better on a some other stats, like life expectancy.

I'm not moving to Cuba anytime soon, but you have to ask why it seems we think so darn highly of ourselves.

malachilenomade
03-01-2005, 07:31 AM
42. Reunion 8.13 deaths/1,000 live births

There's a country named Reunion?

Nicola
03-01-2005, 08:14 AM
Good question.

Yep, there is. Reunion (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/re.html) from the CIA World Factbook.

MotorWerk
03-01-2005, 08:33 AM
This reeks of anti-americanism...

Mike0812
03-01-2005, 08:55 AM
So, tell me Axez... where is Denmark by the numbers... or any other European/African/Asian/whatever?

Exactly what is your purpose for posting this? More US bashing from Europe? There are a number of US writers who hate the US and love to be pessimistic about it... this is just such an article. So, tell me, what is your agenda?

Well, there isn't much to be optimistic about in the "Old" Continent, especially long-term, if current trends hold. In any case, anti-Americanism in Europe is de rigueur...in some cases, it is almost as bad and even worse than Arab anti-Americanism...go figure!

JadedLegend3
03-01-2005, 09:41 AM
So, tell me Axez... where is Denmark by the numbers... or any other European/African/Asian/whatever?

Exactly what is your purpose for posting this? More US bashing from Europe? There are a number of US writers who hate the US and love to be pessimistic about it... this is just such an article. So, tell me, what is your agenda?


What he said. ^

mfa96
03-01-2005, 09:43 AM
can we close this thread now- before it goes any farther?

malachilenomade
03-01-2005, 10:00 AM
Good question.

Yep, there is. Reunion (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/re.html) from the CIA World Factbook.

Huh... go figure... THANKS! :aok:

Nicola
03-01-2005, 10:08 AM
So, tell me Axez... where is Denmark by the numbers... or any other European/African/Asian/whatever?

Exactly what is your purpose for posting this? More US bashing from Europe? There are a number of US writers who hate the US and love to be pessimistic about it... this is just such an article. So, tell me, what is your agenda?

Wow grinner.

These are numbers compiled by someone else.

If you don't like them don't attack the poster.

Challenge his sources, his facts, the spin whatever... but a mature discussion does not need to involve hostility.

P.S. Please don't attack me for pointing that out.

Mike0812
03-01-2005, 12:27 PM
Wow grinner.

These are numbers compiled by someone else.

If you don't like them don't attack the poster.

Challenge his sources, his facts, the spin whatever... but a mature discussion does not need to involve hostility.

P.S. Please don't attack me for pointing that out.

The author selectively gets most of his "information" (without giving us the entire context) from the NYTimes and the delusional, farcical, out of touch ramblings of Jeremy Rifkin's "The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream", who, it would seem, has no clue as to the realities of modern Europe and the increasingly disastrous road it is following. And the NYTimes, well, when I run out of toilet paper, it has its uses. So, you can see how one can be skeptical about the intentions of the author of the article and the poster as well.

And this comment: The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion. is all you need to know about the "objective" intentions of the author. Just another cheap shot at the US's expense...

malachilenomade
03-01-2005, 12:38 PM
The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

And this comment: is all you need to know about the "objective" intentions of the author. Just another cheap shot at the US's expense...


To paraphrase LilO:
BIG GUNS, BIG SPENDING, BIG DEBT AND WE'RE NUTS!!! GOOD NIGHT EVERYBODY!!! :woohoo:

:D

malachilenomade
03-01-2005, 12:39 PM
The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

And this comment: is all you need to know about the "objective" intentions of the author. Just another cheap shot at the US's expense...


To paraphrase LilO:
BIG GUNS, BIG SPENDING, BIG DEBT AND WE'RE NUTS!!! GOOD NIGHT EVERYBODY!!! :woohoo:

:D

I like that enough... I'm going to put that in my sig ;)

grinner
03-01-2005, 05:38 PM
Wow grinner.

These are numbers compiled by someone else.

If you don't like them don't attack the poster.

Challenge his sources, his facts, the spin whatever... but a mature discussion does not need to involve hostility.

P.S. Please don't attack me for pointing that out.
where in my post was I hostile? I was merely inquiring as to what Axez's motive for posting this was. I mean, come on... the NYTimes is losing massive amounts of subscribers because of factual inaccurate articles and a selective bias. Not to mention the completely made up articles of some of its writers... :g2f: You may not agree with my politics, but you have to admit that this article is patently Anti-US vitriol.

grinner
03-01-2005, 05:49 PM
Cause some Countries (http://tinyurl.com/5d4tx) in Europe are doing some wonderous things for their citizens... [/sarcasm]

Nicola
03-01-2005, 06:01 PM
where in my post was I hostile? I was merely inquiring as to what Axez's motive for posting this was.

Right here.

So, tell me Axez... where is Denmark by the numbers... or any other European/African/Asian/whatever? Exactly what is your purpose for posting this? More US bashing from Europe?

and here.

So, tell me, what is your agenda?

You get to have an opinion.

You get to disagree.

But mature discourse requires that if you dislike an article you challenge the facts, challenge the sources or challenge the spin.

Attacking the poster will result in a negative thread and is not good netiquette.

Frell Me Dead deserves better than that. So do those of us who patronise this place.

I mean, come on... the NYTimes is losing massive amounts of subscribers because of factual inaccurate articles and a selective bias. Not to mention the completely made up articles of some of its writers... :g2f: You may not agree with my politics, but you have to admit that this article is patently Anti-US vitriol.

I don't have to agree with anything. And that is another thing you don't get to do. Put words in other peoples mouths.

If you wish to have a reasonable and mature discourse I am sure there are many who are willing to participate.

DRD 1812
03-01-2005, 06:02 PM
Definitely anti-americanism. One sentence, you got a live somewhere to understand it.

Nicola
03-01-2005, 06:05 PM
If you wish to have a reasonable and mature discourse I am sure there are many who are willing to participate.

And you are not...

Cause some Countries (http://tinyurl.com/5d4tx) in Europe are doing some wonderous things for their citizens... [/sarcasm]

I'm outta here.

grinner
03-01-2005, 06:19 PM
You get to have an opinion.

You get to disagree.

But mature discourse requires that if you dislike an article you challenge the facts, challenge the sources or challenge the spin.

Attacking the poster will result in a negative thread and is not good netiquette.

Frell Me Dead deserves better than that. So do those of us who patronise this place.hmm... let's see. I inquired as to WHY this poster posted this article, when there has been a MORATORIUM on such threads for what... how many months? Or did I miss a memo? Why now with this post? How is that attacking Axez? I truly want to know what his motivation behind posting this article is. Can he explain himself? Or are you allowing him to post a drive-by? You post about netiquette... there is no such thing as netiquette. On any given forum, a post like this could cause a firestorm. Did my inquiring of Axez's motive create a firestorm? Only response of a negative sort to my post was from you.





I don't have to agree with anything. And that is another thing you don't get to do. Put words in other peoples mouths.

If you wish to have a reasonable and mature discourse I am sure there are many who are willing to participate.
Oh, I see, I am being immature for inquiring as to WHY Axez posted this. Interesting. So, my response is putting words into your mouth. Can you disprove that the NYTimes is losing subscriptions and readers? Bias is bias... it is in the Wall Street Journal's editorial page and it is in the NYTimes. Everywhere. This article is worded in such a way as to imply certain things. Agree or Disagree?

grinner
03-01-2005, 06:21 PM
And you are not...So, my post is vitriolic and Axez isn't? There is much evidence of the economies of many European nations are in trouble. Truth or Fiction?




I'm outta here.Bye-bye

Jul
03-01-2005, 06:36 PM
ladies and gentleman... seriously, not in the mood to deal with arguments about this this evening as we have other, more important things to deal with at this time.

knock it off..