Terry Schiavo dies at age 41

[Kathleen]

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo, the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman who became the centerpiece of a national right-to-die battle, died Thursday morning, nearly two weeks after doctors removed the feeding tube that had sustained her for more than a decade.

Brother Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for Bob and Mary Schindler, Schiavo's parents, said they were with their daughter's body and praying. (Terri Schiavo's obituary)

The Schindlers and their other two children earlier requested permission to be with Schiavo during her last moments, but police barred them from being with her, O'Donnell said.

O'Donnell, one of the family's spiritual advisers, said Schiavo's family was "begging to be at her bedside...but are being denied."

Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband and guardian, controlled who could visit her and when.

David Gibbs, a lawyer representing the Schindlers, said his clients were "with Terri up until 10 minutes before she passed.

"This is indeed a sad day for this nation. This is a sad day for this family. Their faith in God remains consistent and strong," he said. "They are absolutely convinced God loves Terri more than they do."

The Rev. Frank Pavone was with the Schindlers during their final visit. He said, "This is not only a death with all the sadness that brings, this is a killing. And for that we not only grieve that Terri has passed, but we grieve that our nation has allowed such an atrocity as this, and we pray that it will never happen again."

Wednesday, the Schindlers lost what their lawyer described as their "last meaningful legal appeal" in their desperate battle to have their brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube reinserted.

The U.S. Supreme Court late Wednesday refused once again to hear an emergency appeal from the Schindlers.

Pasco-Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer in Clearwater, Florida, ordered the feeding tube removed March 18 at Michael Schiavo's request. He has said that his wife wouldn't have wanted to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a "persistent vegetative state."

The parents believed otherwise and had sought to take guardianship of their daughter from her husband. Their bitter court battles began in 1998.

"I don't understand why Michael Schiavo at some point didn't walk away," Gibbs said.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, who has jurisdiction over Florida, Georgia and Alabama, and could have ruled on the petition on his own, referred the appeal to the entire Supreme Court at 10:40 p.m. Wednesday.

There was no breakdown of the vote, and the high court issued no explanation for its decision. The petition had been filed earlier in the night.

It was the second time in a week the high court refused to hear the case, and the sixth time since 2001.

The Schindlers "can know they have done everything possible under the law in letting government know that they wanted to fight for the life of their daughter," Gibbs said.

In his Supreme Court filing, Gibbs and other lawyers for the parents wrote that removing the tube represented "an unconstitutional deprivation of Terri Schiavo's constitutional right to life."

The Supreme Court's rejection came hours after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia, rejected the parents' petition 9-2. That court denied three similar requests from the parents last week.

On March 21, three days after Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, Congress passed a bill transferring jurisdiction of the case from Florida state court to a U.S. District Court, for a federal judge to review. President Bush signed it into law the next day. But federal courts refused to overturn the state courts' decision.

2002 videotapes released
The Pinellas County Probate Court released nine of 11 videotapes of Terri Schiavo recorded in the summer of 2002 and shown in a Florida appeals court hearing on her medical condition.

The videos show several doctors talking to and examining Schiavo to get ready for their court testimony. The tapes were recorded from July to September 2002.

Family members, including her mother and husband, also appear in the video.

Two of the 11 tapes remain sealed by the court, but it was unclear why.

In October 2002, Florida's 2nd District Court of Appeal heard a week of testimony from five doctors who examined her, including two picked by Michael Schiavo, two by her parents and one picked by the court.

Three doctors, including one appointed by the court, testified that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The two doctors selected by the Schindlers testified they thought she could recover.

The appellate court concurred with a lower court decision that Schiavo had no hope of recovery and that her feeding tube could be removed.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage because of lack of oxygen.

Her husband has said she suffered from bulimia, an eating disorder, that resulted in a potassium deficiency that triggered the heart failure.



link to article (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/31/schiavo/index.html)

[scrape_medic]

Rest in peace Terri

[stellar]

Rest in peace.

[trinamick]

At least she isn't suffering now. This is why I have a medical directive, health care POA, etc. I don't ever want that to happen to me.

[malachilenomade]

It may sound mean, but I say: FINALLY!!! I really don't mean that in a bad way... I mean, how many days had she gone w/o the feeding tube?!

At least she's no longer suffering :(


Since Michael was such a chode :gnash: that - even though he has another woman and children from said woman - he wasn't going to release responsibility for Terri back to her parents (also notice that Michael is listed as "Husband" even though he's with another woman who had his kids.... adultery... :irate: ), he needs to be nailed for murder. I'm sure some enterprising lawyer out there is already scouring the books to make such a case and I say MORE POWER TO 'EM!!

[scrape_medic]

Be careful that you completely understand the situation before you condemn and pass judgement

[stellar]

Take care that this memorial thread doesn't degenerate into a "my side, your side" flame war.

[malachilenomade]

Take care that this memorial thread doesn't degenerate into a "my side, your side" flame war.

You're right... and I have no intention of flame war, especially on this. I was just stating my opinion.

[Ka D'Argo]

I agree with those who say Finally. this is taking place like 10 minutes away from my house, and i was hearing how the protests were interfering with schools and stuff. It got so out of hand that a girl missed her grandfather before he died because she couldn't get in. She is at peace now and now everyone can go on with their lives.

[scrape_medic]

If he had wanted to "cheat" then it would have been easier for him to get a divorce and run off with this other woman.....maybe he actually loved his wife too much to abandon her, but being a young man himself wanted and had desires to fulfill, like having his own kids for instance....who knows......

Merely hypothesising here, but as I am not in possesion of the facts, the complete facts, I am not passing judgement

[mfa96]

He didn't divorce her because it was not her wish to be kept alive in that state. I know I wouldn't want to be kept alive in that state- and don't know anyone who would. Living wills are the way to go.

May she rest in peace, and may all involved find their peace as well.

[Selena]

Terri's death is a great injustice and a tragedy. Better make sure y'all have a living will or this could happen to you or your loved one too.

Rest in peace Terri, you fought the good fight.

[JadedLegend3]

Selena for once we agree.

That's all I'm going to say on this subject.

[stellar]

I signed my living will on Good Friday and my wife and mother signed as witnesses so neither could reasonably contest in court that they didn't know what my wishes were. I hope these years of suffering will serve as a wake-up call.

Check out the laws in your state. In mine I just download the form, and signed it with two witnesses. No lawyers, not notaries. Easy as pie.

[Nicola]

Rest in peace. Remember - there are far worse things in life than death.

[grinner]

Black Thursday...

It is now legal to kill the handicapped. What are we, Nazi Germany?

Rest in Peace, Terri :cry2:

[stellar]

I may not know the answer to the question, "where do we go from here?"... but I have a feeling where this thread is heading.

[Kathleen]

Black Thursday...

It is now legal to kill the handicapped. What are we, Nazi Germany?

Rest in Peace, Terri :cry2:

Please don't, grinner. Not this time. Let's just say RIP and that's all. :(

[chri-baby]

At last her arduous journey is at an end may God rest her soul.

[trinamick]

I signed my living will on Good Friday and my wife and mother signed as witnesses so neither could reasonably contest in court that they didn't know what my wishes were. I hope these years of suffering will serve as a wake-up call.

Check out the laws in your state. In mine I just download the form, and signed it with two witnesses. No lawyers, not notaries. Easy as pie.

I agree with checking your state laws. Here in NE, you can't have your witnesses be relatives or your health care power of attorney. And what's with that no lawyers or notaries part? Are you trying to make me homeless? :ppbb:

[stellar]

Are you trying to make me homeless? :ppbb:

Yes. I am trying to make you homeless so you will roam the earth like David Carradine in Kung Fu and I will document your exploits in my blog. I will name the blog Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, Continues.

[trinamick]

:lol Thanks for the help.

[SabaceanBabe]

Rest in peace, Terri.

[AgentSun]

RIP Terri.

[kymom5613]

Prayers to Terri's family - her suffering is finally over...

I hope that her life (and IMO horrendous death) will not have been in vain - everyone and their sister needs to have a living will. It isn't pleasant to think on this, but we gotta remember, nobody gets out alive here folks. If you don't have SOMETHING in writing, this kind of insanity can happen to you and your loved ones. Do it for them, if you don't do it for yourselves. I don't want the state deciding, and I don't want my husband to be second guessed by anyone nor have his motives questioned (like I've questioned Mr. Schiavo's, I must admit). My kids may not agree with my decision, but hubby and parents understand that I will NOT allow what happened to Terri to happen to me & mine...
*off soapbox

[Spedoinkel]

I'm glad this dibacle is finally over. I don't side with either the parents or the "husband". They all had their own selfish reasons, but keeping here like that for 15 years is unacceptable. How would you like to be trapped within your body for that long.

The thing that really pisses me off is the way she had to go, starving to death.

At least she doesn't have to suffer anymore.

[MotorWerk]

This isn't over by far yet. It might be the end for brave Terri, but the aftermath is going to be as nasty as only politicians can get it
Terri; you were a brave woman - now you are permitted to rest.

[Spedoinkel]

We on the other hand will still be hearing about this for many months.

[grinner]

We on the other hand will still be hearing about this for many months.
bad taste...

[stellar]

bad taste...

What are we, Nazi Germany?

He who smelt it...

[zahncrelnik]

That poor woman. Thank the Goddess, Terri's suffering has ended.
The whole situation was just sad.

[grinner]

He who smelt it...
http://www.cst-phl.com/050113/sixth.html[/url]). In the midst of her starvation, Terri will most likely be treated for “pain or discomfort” and nausea which may arise as the result of the supposedly humane process of bringing about her death. (Remember that Schiavo is not terminally ill.) She may be given morphine for respiratory distress and may experience seizures. This protocol confirms what we have learned from famines and death camps: death by starvation is a horrible death.

This apparently is what it means to have “rights” as a disabled person in America today.

Joe Ford ’06 is a government concentrator in Currier House.
link (http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article506716.html)

[Kathleen]

godda**itt, grinner... can't you let us have just ONE thread without coming in and trying to start controversy? I put this thread up so that people could be made aware of her passing, and to wish her R.I.P.... WHY do you feel the need to start crap? There's no need in it, at all. :g2f:

[eta_carinae]

so sad. so sad. I'm glad it's over for Terri.

[grinner]

hmm...

[Nessus]

And of all the articles you could have posted, a ridiculously biased one like that:
To put it in a simpler way, many Americans are bigots.

This is indeed a very sad day, though similar things happen multiple times every day in this country, not to mention around the world. But the findings of 24 judges that this is what Terry wanted are good enough for me to feel that this ended the way she would have wanted.

[stellar]

The image on the left is a normal adult brain CAT scan, the left it Terri Schiavo's 2002 CAT scan. Her's is not the CAT scan of a "disabled person" but one whose only function is autonomous stem functions (heartbeat, lungs, etc). A persistant (or permanent since the CT and CAT scans didn't change in the years since initial diagnosis) vegetative state, PVT. All EEGs taken were flat, i.e. no electrical activity in the cerebral cortex, i.e., no measurable brain activity.

If the fact-based diagnosis of PVT is correct then she felt no pain, hunger or thirst. And was certainly not aware of anything.

Fact: A feeding tube is a life support device.

When patients choose to remove artificial means of feeding to end their lives they've reported a day of hunger followed by no hunger (in fact euphoria as the body burns muscle for energy). The word starve is an emotionally charged one that is not descriptive in this case.

Personally, I'd like congress to take up doctor-assisted suicide legislation, but I don't think they will. In fact, I'd like to know who of all the protestors who were in horror over the "starving" actually advocate doctor-assisted suicide as an alternative. Or are they all just beating their self-righteous chests?

[Kathleen]

From Nessus' sig:

This happens to be a rig and contraption of my own devising against repeated accidental falls that has temporarily malfunctioned


:spew:

:roflmao:

I needed that. Thanks. :lol

[grinner]

You mean, that the typical American isn't biased against those with disabilities? You wouldn't rather they go away so you don't have to stare at them?

[zahncrelnik]

I know this to be true: I do not want to be kept alive by artificial means.
I do not want to linger (suffering or not) for 15 years in a kind of purgatory.
Why put your family through that. I have a 'Living Will' outlining my wishes.
My Mother has a 'Living Will', I am named as her 'representative' and I know
what her wishes are, and they are written in the 'Living Will' document.

I know of an elderly woman who has a feeding tube and there is NO quality of
life there. She just lies in a bed and moans, she is too weak to move. Her
family now wishes they had not agreed to the feeding tube. Under the
circumstances it is difficult, if not impossible, to have the feeding tube removed
now. It has to do with being on Public Aid, in a 'State'-run nursing home,
and it is complicated.

I would just ask anyone who thinks a feeding tube is 'right': Have you ever
visited anyone in a nursing home? Did you ever think about what life would
be like if you were unable to go to the toilet by yourself? Unable to wash
yourself? Unable to do anything for yourself?
You would have to eat what they give you -no matter how unappealing it
may be, no McDonald's.

My Grandma is a Public Aid nursing home patient. They treat her wonderfully,
the staff of the nursing home is terrific, it is like a family. I thank God every
day that she is in such a nice place.
I also thank God every day that I can go to the toilet by myself,
wash myself, eat whatever I want.

Whatever your personal feelings are about the right to die vs the right to life:
everyone who can take care of themselves without another persons help
should just count their blessings. Be greatful for what you are able to do!
Embrace life and live every day as if it were your last.

[grinner]

Personally, I'd like congress to take up doctor-assisted suicide legislation, but I don't think they will. In fact, I'd like to know who of all the protestors who were in horror over the "starving" actually advocate doctor-assisted suicide as an alternative. Or are they all just beating their self-righteous chests?
Well then, maybe we should let Jack Kevorkian out of prison then...

[eta_carinae]

oh boy. this thread is going south. fast.

[Kathleen]

Tread very very carefully, grinner. My father is disabled. You really don't wanna go down that road.

The point of this thread is starting to go astray. This thread is for Mrs. Shiavo and to be able to say R.I.P.

Please, people. Let's not get out of hand here. Can we please just let it go? There's been too much pain and too much convtroversy over this. Can't we just say Rest In Peace and be done with it?

[stellar]

I'm saying equating through inference a person in a wheelchair to a severely brain-damaged person whose conscience is totally gone is BS and transparent BS at that. Especially when the person at question didn't want to be perpetually kept alive in that state. To force a label onto a person who doesn't want to be mechanically kept alive in a direct effort to raise public opinion to the cause of mechanically keeping her alive is repugnant to me.

[Ka D'Argo]

I'm beginning to see Grinners Point... He's right, everyone else isn't allowed to have an opinion of their own, cause we're wrong.

This subject isn't black and white. each solution to this would have bad and good consequences. We can't change what happened to her all we can do is make sure people make living wills and the like so that a situationlike this doesn't happen again.

[zahncrelnik]

You mean, that the typical American isn't biased against those with disabilities? You wouldn't rather they go away so you don't have to stare at them?

No, grinner, I have a cousin who had Polio. She never did her exercises or
worked to regain control of her legs or her throat. Doris cannot talk or
walk. But she is the most delightful, intelligent person to communicate
with! Everyone who gets to know her loves her. She has a 'word-board',
with the alphabet on it, numbers and most often used words, and if you
get her started-Doris will 'talk' all day long.
Because she cannot control her muscles properly it is NOT pretty to
watch her eat a meal. She eats regular food like anyone, but it is slow
going and there is a lot of drooling. Some people cannot watch Doris
eat. This does not matter to those who know and love Doris -she
has such great spirit and an enormous will to live. She was 14 years old
when she got Polio, she will 77 years old on April 18. I wish you could meet
her.

[stellar]

Well then, maybe we should let Jack Kevorkian out of prison then...

Okay.

[zahncrelnik]

Okay.

ditto

[grinner]

Tread very very carefully, grinner. My father is disabled. You really don't wanna go down that road.
umm... I am against assisted-suicide. I don't think that the disabled should die... I have a very good friend who has a child with severe autism. They fought to let the child live. The hospital wanted to remove all tubes that were used to keep the child alive after he was born. The doctors said that he wasn't worth the effort to keep alive, that he would be extremely disabled. (I heard this with my own ears, I was there when they were told this). This boy is now 5 years old and is an incredibly amazing child. He is aphasic, and is almost completely blind in one eye... but he is one of the nicest and kindest kids I know. He isn't 'damaged' and shouldn't have been allowed to be die at birth.

[Kathleen]

No, grinner, I have a cousin who had Polio. She never did her exercises or
worked to regain control of her legs or her throat. Doris cannot talk or
walk. But she is the most delightful, intelligent person to communicate
with! Everyone who gets to know her loves her. She has a 'word-board',
with the alphabet on it, numbers and most often used words, and if you
get her started-Doris will 'talk' all day long.
Because she cannot control her muscles properly it is NOT pretty to
watch her eat a meal. She eats regular food like anyone, but it is slow
going and there is a lot of drooling. Some people cannot watch Doris
eat. This does not matter to those who know and love Doris -she
has such great spirit and an enormous will to live. She was 14 years old
when she got Polio, she will 77 years old on April 18. I wish you could meet
her.


:hug:

My father contracted polio when he was 3 years old. The doctors told him he'd never walk, never have children, never live past the age of 25. He was walking unassisted (no walker, crutches, wheelchair) at age 19. He has 4 children, 9 grandchildren and 1 great grandchild. He'll be 66 years old this September 1st. He is an engineer, a carpenter..... and more. He is one of the most intelligent people you will ever meet, but his body is disfigured because of the disease. I'm like stellar..... you don't equate someone like Terry Schiavo with someone who is disabled. There is no comparison.


*sigh*... I said I wouldn't get drug into this, but I just wanted to let zahn know they're not alone.

:hug:

[grinner]

I'm saying equating through inference a person in a wheelchair to a severely brain-damaged person whose conscience is totally gone is BS and transparent BS at that. Especially when the person at question didn't want to be perpetually kept alive in that state. To force a label onto a person who doesn't want to be mechanically kept alive in a direct effort to raise public opinion to the cause of mechanically keeping her alive is repugnant to me.
and her 'wishes' were only 'remembered' by her husband AFTER he got the settlement.

[zahncrelnik]

:hug:

My father contracted polio when he was 3 years old. The doctors told him he'd never walk, never have children, never live past the age of 25. He was walking unassisted (no walker, crutches, wheelchair) at age 19. He has 4 children, 9 grandchildren and 1 great grandchild. He'll be 66 years old this September 1st. He is an engineer, a carpenter..... and more. He is one of the most intelligent people you will ever meet, but his body is disfigured because of the disease. I'm like stellar..... you don't equate someone like Terry Schiavo with someone who is disabled. There is no comparison.


*sigh*... I said I wouldn't get drug into this, but I just wanted to let zahn know they're not alone.

:hug:

K, Your father must have had a very strong will to be on his way again.
Good for Him! My cousin Doris, has often regretted not fighting to get
on her feet again. And you are correct: you cannot equate Terri Schiavo
to a disabled person, who can speak up for themselves, and be productive
in some way.

(my cousin is productive in that she teaches people to be
patient and tolerant and inspires us to be kind to others)

[grinner]

No, grinner, I have a cousin who had Polio. She never did her exercises or
worked to regain control of her legs or her throat. Doris cannot talk or
walk. But she is the most delightful, intelligent person to communicate
with! Everyone who gets to know her loves her. She has a 'word-board',
with the alphabet on it, numbers and most often used words, and if you
get her started-Doris will 'talk' all day long.
Because she cannot control her muscles properly it is NOT pretty to
watch her eat a meal. She eats regular food like anyone, but it is slow
going and there is a lot of drooling. Some people cannot watch Doris
eat. This does not matter to those who know and love Doris -she
has such great spirit and an enormous will to live. She was 14 years old
when she got Polio, she will 77 years old on April 18. I wish you could meet
her.
You mean you haven't seen/heard a mother tell her child not to stare at someone with a disability? You haven't heard someone say under their breath that they 'wished that child wasn't around'? Remember 'Freak Shows'? How hard it was to get ADA passed? How many builders still refuse to follow ADA statutes?
Terri was disabled. Her parents wanted to continue to take care of her. Her husband had said numerous times that he didn't know what she wanted... that they were only in their 20's when this happened and people don't talk of these things. It wasn't until after he won the malpractice suit that he 'remembered' that she wanted to die... mentioned 1 time in a passing remark over a television show.

[Ka D'Argo]

and her 'wishes' were only 'remembered' by her husband AFTER he got the settlement.


The Settlement?!?! where do you think that money went?! do you honestly think there is anything left after court costs? c'mon. Just because he knew felt differently than you doesn't make him wrong.

[Eve11]

And you are correct: you cannot equate Terri Schiavo
to a disabled person, who can speak up for themselves, and be productive
in some way.

More than that... it's not a matter of being productive, or speaking, or anything like that, it's a matter of consciousness and awareness. Zahn, all of your examples are people who can THINK, and who are aware of what's around them, who have consciousness.

A pvs person doesn't do any of that. It's like, as far as Terri the person is concerned, she never woke up after 1990. She doesn't have any cognition. Imagine how you feel during an operation, if you've ever had one. They put you to sleep and it's a big huge nothing. when you wake up again you feel pain, you start thinking, you recognize your surroundings. But you have to wake up.

[Nessus]

:spew:

:roflmao:

I needed that. Thanks. :lol
Happy I could, at least momentarily, for at least one person, break the mood of this thread. For all its vulgarity, I think Deadwood is probably the funniest thing ever on tv.

As for my feelings on the topic, well people can have opinions of course. But I don't think anyone's opinions should take precendence over someones personal wishes.

[grinner]

And you are correct: you cannot equate Terri Schiavo
to a disabled person, who can speak up for themselves, and be productive
in some way.
and what about those that can't speak up for themselves? Or are not productive? Is there now a level of disability? Is someone with polio worth more than someone like Stephen Hawking? He can't speak for himself without assistence from a computer. And there are those that can't even do that. Should someone who is blind, deaf and dumb be put to death? This really isn't a right to live or a right to die case, but rather a case of someone being an inconvenience to someone and finally getting rid of that inconvenience.

[La Bomba]

*walks in*

Rest in Peace Terry.

*walks out, closing the door firmly behind him*

[stellar]

and her 'wishes' were only 'remembered' by her husband AFTER he got the settlement.

You mean after years of experimental treatments and regular and aggressive therapy with zero improvement? That period extended past the time a settlement was reached. Terri Schiavo was still in therapy when the Schindlers sued for gaurdianship, presumably to get a share of the malpractice settlement.

Edited to address: Stephen Hawking isn't in a PVS. He is aware and has brain activity.

[grinner]

The Settlement?!?! where do you think that money went?! do you honestly think there is anything left after court costs? c'mon. Just because he knew felt differently than you doesn't make him wrong.
let's see. How many millions will he make now that she dies. Book deal. Movie deal. Speaking engagements.

Terri lives= 0
Terri dies= million$

[trinamick]

Wait for me, LB! *gets door slammed in face*

[Ka D'Argo]

It would have happened anyways. She was going to die no matter what, it was just a matter of when. And since it caused such a media fervor the book deals, movie deals, etc were going to happen.

[grinner]

You mean after years of experimental treatments and regular and aggressive therapy with zero improvement? That period extended past the time a settlement was reached. Terri Schiavo was still in therapy when the Schindlers sued for gaurdianship, presumably to get a share of the malpractice settlement.treatment was STOPPED by Michael Schiavo in 1991. Since 1991, when Terri was placed in a Hospice (whose strict policy of 6 months to death was ignored) she hasn't had an MRI, Swallow Tests, or anything else. In the 14 years since 1991, how much more do we know of the brain? Or of treating brain injuries?

[stellar]

let's see. How many millions will he make now that she dies. Book deal. Movie deal. Speaking engagements.

Terri lives= 0
Terri dies= million$

He was already offered millions. If that was his motivation he would have taken the money and run; and probably be safe from every nutjob with a rifle and scope.

[stellar]

treatment was STOPPED by Michael Schiavo in 1991. Since 1991, when Terri was placed in a Hospice (whose strict policy of 6 months to death was ignored) she hasn't had an MRI, Swallow Tests, or anything else. In the 14 years since 1991, how much more do we know of the brain? Or of treating brain injuries?

Wrong. Timeline. (http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm)

July 19, 1991

Terri Schiavo is transferred to Sable Palms skilled care facility where she receives continuing neurological testing, and regular and aggressive speech/occupational therapy through 1994.

[zahncrelnik]

You mean you haven't seen/heard a mother tell her child not to stare at someone with a disability? ......

Yes, and thank God my family loves our Cousin Doris.
In my family we take our children to visit their 'disabled' Cousin.
They learn that they need to take the time and be
patient with those who cannot communicate easily.
They learn to be tolerant of those who are 'different'.

[grinner]

well then, you are an exception.

[Kathleen]

and what about those that can't speak up for themselves? Or are not productive? Is there now a level of disability? Is someone with polio worth more than someone like Stephen Hawking? He can't speak for himself without assistence from a computer. And there are those that can't even do that. Should someone who is blind, deaf and dumb be put to death? This really isn't a right to live or a right to die case, but rather a case of someone being an inconvenience to someone and finally getting rid of that inconvenience.


:rolleyes: Could you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop? Why are you continuing to prod people into fighting? I mean, what is the meaning of doing this? Why can't you just say RIP Terri, like the rest of us have tried to do?

And just so you know, YES, there are different levels of disability. If you had someone in your IMMEDIATE family that was disabled, you would know that. It's not always fair, and it's not always right, but it is the way it is.

You have your opinion, and no one is going to take that away from you, but just because we don't AGREE with you does not make us bad people. It just means that we have a different opinion than you.

[grinner]

Wrong. Timeline. (http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm)
fine... the point is that Micheal was the one to stop the therapy.

[Kathleen]

Yes, and thank God my family loves our Cousin Doris.
In my family we take our children to visit their 'disabled' Cousin.
They learn that they need to take the time and be
patient with those who cannot communicate easily.
They learn to be tolerant of those who are 'different'.


Our family does that, too, zahn. We've always answered the questions of the small children in our family who look at my dad curiously and want to know what's wrong with his back and legs. In fact, I think most families that have someone with a disability in them do that. We are not the exception... It is my opinion that we are the rule. :dunno:

[zahncrelnik]

I sincerely hope that you are right, Kathleen.


I believe that my Cousin Doris objects to be called 'disabled'
since her mind is sharp and clear....

That's all for me, I am through here.




R.I.P. Terri Schaivo

[grinner]

And just so you know, YES, there are different levels of disability. If you had someone in your IMMEDIATE family that was disabled, you would know that. It's not always fair, and it's not always right, but it is the way it is.


so, what do we do with those that are below the level of what you consider... functional? My friend's son will never have a job, will probably never enroll in a 'normal' school, heck... he probably won't live to the age of 20. Is his life worth less than any others? No, he has people who love him and cherish him. But with your 'levels' of disability... what would you have done?

[who45]

RIP Terri :(

[stellar]

That is true. Medical decisions are left to the spouse if the patient cannot communicate them in case of emergency, incapacitation, or, in this case, no brain activity.

[StephX]

RIP Terri

[grinner]

Our family does that, too, zahn. We've always answered the questions of the small children in our family who look at my dad curiously and want to know what's wrong with his back and legs. In fact, I think most families that have someone with a disability in them do that. We are not the exception... It is my opinion that we are the rule. :dunno:
yes, but you have dealt with disability in your life. What of those that probably only see disabilities from a far. I would say that there are more of those situations than those with an upbringing like yours.

[Kathleen]

Frell you, grinner. I wouldn't have done anything except try and abide by her wishes. That is ALL. I never EVER EVER frelling said that someone with a severe disability deserved to die or didn't have the right to try and lead a "normal" life. And they aren't MY levels of disability. They are those that are OBVIOUS to those that live with disabilities or family members with a disability each and every day of their lives. Which you DON'T. So until you know what you're talking about, don't talk to me about this. You don't know what the hell you're spewing.

[BrowderChick]

May God bless you Terri. Prayers and sympathy go out to her family. :(

[Eve11]

Kath, I think the majority of people here recognize the difference between disability and life through purely autonomic function.

[StarsGoBlue]

Okay. I am stepping in here wearing the mod hat, so make no mistake.

There will be NO PARTISAN POLITICAL DISCUSSION ON THIS BOARD. That includes posting links or articles that are obviously slanted in one direction or the other--I don't care which, so save your breath and don't try to convince me it isn't. Ultimately, that's my decision to make, or one of the other mods'.

Secondly, I will remind each and every member of this board about the ToS---which includes acting in a way to disrupt the board, either by posting in an inflammatory manner or by including such in your signatures.

TAKE THE POLITICS OUT OF THIS THREAD. It is in extremely poor taste to debate the case in a thread that is a memorial to the deceased; in addition, there have already been several calls to stop. Now I'm TELLING YOU TO STOP.

That's the only warning there will be on this matter.

[BrowderChick]

Both my mom and my father are diabled and so is my neice.

This thread is not about anything but for sympathy for TERRI.

Her and her only.

So please stop bitching about everything else.

[zahncrelnik]

Terri has gone on to a far better place. :meditate:

[Owlman]

RIP Terry

Cases like this take place everyday in America, yet they don't get press coverage.

I am amazed by the hypocrisy comming from both sides of the political sprectrum over this.

As a person who burried a lot of loved ones at a young age (and about to lose a Grandmother to bone cancer) I found a lot of interest in this case.

No politics, so I won't say what my feelings are.

RIP Terry

[Judith]

I won't state my opinion here...it's not new or original, and it's not what this thread is here for.

Rest in peace Terri.

I hope that her parents, her husband, and everyone who was involved in this can find some peace of their own.

[Digger]

I think some important topics were brought up for discussion due to this unfortunate situation. Hopefully they will continue to be talked about now and not get swept under the rug now that all the politicians (on both sides) have had their 15 minutes in front of the cameras.

I'll be interested to see the results of the autopsy and see how that shapes the discussion too.

RIP Terri.

[scrape_medic]

Stellar...your explanation of the nervous system and the persistent Vegatative State was clear and accurate.....as as you said, it was unlikely that she felt any pain during the time that the feeding tube was removed.

The feeding tube is legally known as a "medical intervention", many of which are withdrawn everyday from patients who would not survive without them. Usually this happens in the quiet of a hospital or home environment, with INFORMED consent from ALL concerned, not only those in legal guardianship of a patient unable to speak for themselves, but all who have any legitimate interest in the patients wellfare.

To say that a feeding tube should not be withdrawn, is similar in many ways to saying that CPR should not be stopped, as the result of either would inevitably be the death of the patient. Where should the line be drawn? As part of my everyday job this is a decision that I HAVE to make on a fairly regular basis, do I continue or do I stop and let nature take its course.

Each case is judged on its merits. Period.

The full facts of Terri's case will never and should never be know....its not our business. A patient is allowed to have the right to privacy of their medical condition, and all those involved have a duty to protect that right, regardless of the patient's ability to express thier wishes.

[Spedoinkel]

In the case of the disabled, if they are cognitive and have conscious muscle control over any part of there body, there can be communication, unless they aren’t able to use their sense of touch, hearing, or sight. If they can communicate then they can make a decision, and it’s their decision alone. You can try to persuade them otherwise, but your should abide by their decision.

Of course if they can go on to lead a relatively normal life, then slap them upside the head (gently) because life isn’t over.

How did this story get so over blown? I curse the slow news day that forced this to the front, because it’s not any of our business. The only thing that people can get out of it is to understand that a living will is necessary, as they should already know.

Call me cold or whatever you want, and I know I’ll get flamed for this, but I won’t mourn Terri. Just because I hear about her, instead of the countless others that go through things like this doesn’t mean that I have to have feelings about her. There is no connection between us. Sure I feel sad that another life ends, but I get the same thing when I see a dead fish (and almost the same for a dead tree). Life and death happens. It happens everyday. If someone close to me dies, I mourn a bit, but move on.

Don’t get held up just because some person you have no connection with dies. Just be happy you are still alive and can share your life with the ones around you.

[Col.Batguano]

Terry is now free of her burdens.

what scares the dren out of me about all this mess where the Lawyers.
It wasn't about right to die or protection of life, it was about bureaucrats politicians and judges turning Human beings into intellectual subjects of legality for the sake of law and state (and most likely for a price).
some of the things the lawyers where saying had a very Orwellian Nightmarish ring to it.
In the end I can't help but feel that all the politicians and legal experts in this whole Circus side show, didn't really give one rats ass about Terry Schiaavo or weather she lived or died or was alive or brain dead, just an opportunity for would be masters to show off create new rules of order and power, and make some fame and cash for them selves.

[StarsGoBlue]

In the case of the disabled, if they are cognitive and have conscious muscle control over any part of there body, there can be communication, unless they aren’t able to use their sense of touch, hearing, or sight. If they can communicate then they can make a decision, and it’s their decision alone. You can try to persuade them otherwise, but your should abide by their decision.

Of course if they can go on to lead a relatively normal life, then slap them upside the head (gently) because life isn’t over.

How did this story get so over blown? I curse the slow news day that forced this to the front, because it’s not any of our business. The only thing that people can get out of it is to understand that a living will is necessary, as they should already know.

Call me cold or whatever you want, and I know I’ll get flamed for this, but I won’t mourn Terri. Just because I hear about her, instead of the countless others that go through things like this doesn’t mean that I have to have feelings about her. There is no connection between us. Sure I feel sad that another life ends, but I get the same thing when I see a dead fish (and almost the same for a dead tree). Life and death happens. It happens everyday. If someone close to me dies, I mourn a bit, but move on.

Don’t get held up just because some person you have no connection with dies. Just be happy you are still alive and can share your life with the ones around you.

No, Spedoinkel, you aren't going to get flamed for this. What you are getting is a PM from me, for making this inflammatory after I expressly told everyone to keep it in memoriam.

And now, because every time someone in this thread decides the rules don't apply to them, it hurts the people who started it IN MEMORY OF SOMEONE WHO DIED, I'm locking it.

Kathleen, you may start another memorial thread.