Manic-Depressed animals???

[grinner]

Okay, this has been a very interesting week. It was discovered that the English Springer Spaniel that I have has been diagnosed with Manic-Depression. Okay, I understand the Manic part as she is a bundle of manic energy, but I don't get the depression part. She did suffer 2 seizures the other day when things got extremely stressful, and these are seizures number 4 and 5. 5 seizures in her 4 years of life. Not so good. Anyway, she is on phenobarbital in an attempt to keep her calm. But I still don't see the depressed part of it. And how the heck can someone diagnose something like manic-depression in a dog? ...hmm... I do know that she was depressed when I rescued her, but she hasn't appeared to be depressed since that time.

anyway, if anyone was wondering 'where' I have been this week, it has been a bit of a stressful time with the girls. the other two have been a bit weird about the whole situation as well... not understanding what is going on. That and Madie has been very difficult to live with. But shots of valium can do wonders to calm a person/animal down.

[scrape_medic]

Springers can do that...a friend of mine had one that was fine for years.....then one day it bit me and as it turns out, she had been behaving a bit strange for days.

She got so uncontrollable that my friend couldn't take her to the stables with the horses, or anywhere where she might have a possibility to bite. Turns out it a hereditary trait.

[zahncrelnik]

That is weird grinner, but who can say, really?
I guess anything with a brain can have mental problems.
The poor thing, thank the Goddess that she has you to love
and care for her.
I know how helpless you might feel when she has a seizure.
My last dog had a couple of seizures, but she was very old
and had other problems.

[grinner]

The weird thing, is how much stress can a dog be under? I have a set routine for the girls and they seemed to be flourishing in the attention that I have been giving them... but I wonder what this dog really needs. I do know she misses her 'mommy' (my friend) but that doesn't seem to be the main thing... it is a bit wierd

[AgentSun]

i don't know...i mean, i think pets may look at humans and go "what kind of stress are you under? you can walk wherever you want, you don't get yelled at when you pee, your food is warmed up and your toys are bigger and have more colors. and they move."

i think it's a matter of perception...for dogs, it might be "i have no territory, i have to mark something......" or it might be an instinctive thing that is being hindered. cats instinctively need to hunt and stalk and even domesticated cats have these traits, so when pet owners discourage that kind of behavior with even fake mice or fake birds, there may be a conflict.

[TheBladeRoden]

It happens

[DRD 1812]

My be a hereditary trait. We're wondering about our dog. He's loved in this home, but everytime we take him for a walk. He bites the leash. He broke free of two of them. One it only took ten minutes before he gnawed it it half.

[grinner]

With Maddie, if I don't use her harness when I walk her, she will 'choke herself out'. By this, I mean that she will pull and pull and pull until she can't breathe and then goes into a seizure. I use the harness and she doesn't choke, but she is hard to control. So I use the harness because it really isn't cool to have a dog go into a seizure whilst walking her.
I have read that the breed of English Springer Spaniels are more likely to develop 'problems' later in life... so this may be something that I will have to deal with.
The fact that she is fighting off an infection also brought this mental issue up to the fore... in that she isn't feeling well and that raised up her stress level. Gotta keep her mellow I guess.

[AgentSun]

Pet Aromatherapy (http://www.just4pooches.com/html/shopping/aromatherapy.shtml)

de-stressing formula. :)

[Judith]

Well, she may not have to be under a lot of stress if it's a physiological problem.

One thing I've learned about manic depression, as a lot of my friends have it, is that it doesn't always present itself the way we think about it. Some people who are manic depressive almost never get depressed and are mostly manic. My best friend has it the other way around...she has very rare periods of manic behavior, but she's much more likely to get deeply depressed. So it's not always 50-50. :shrug:

That said, a second opinion might be worthwhile. It's not that I don't believe that it's possible for dogs to have mental disorders, it's that I have a hard time seeing how someone could diagnose manic depression in another species in such a short time.

*hugs* I'm thinking good thoughts for you and your puppies. My old Springer (RIP Casey) had agression issues...they can be a really problematic breed.

[BlackThorn]

Would have to know more about the dog to be able to say because my work with a canine behaviorist was limited, but with what you said it almost sounds like anxiety instead of manic depression. Dog gets a bit too worked up in a stressful situation and starts experiencing something akin to a panic attack which, dogs being different from us, manifests as a seizure at the worst of times.

*shrug* Just seems odd that phenobarb would be prescribed for a result of "depression" considering it depresses and helps keep dogs mellower to avoid a seizure. But yes, excitable dogs like some of the smaller breeds or springers are known for sometimes having problems with seizures.

ETA: Judith's right about a second opinion.

[scrape_medic]

Hey BT:hi: long time no see

[AgentSun]

Some people who are manic depressive almost never get depressed and are mostly manic. My best friend has it the other way around...she has very rare periods of manic behavior, but she's much more likely to get deeply depressed. So it's not always
50-50.

in humans the manic depression presents itself in a cycle. this cycle can have a really long high (manic) or a really long low (depression) but that can be in short hills too, or a long hill and then a few short ones and then another long one. a lot of manic depressives aren't diagnosed because their cycles are so long. they can go for weeks without being manic or depressive. but when they switch hills, oooooh boy.

[BrowderChick]

I think we should switch back to animals.

grinner... That has to be tough on the dog and for you too. I would be worried all the time about her.

Send her a :hug: and I know shes in good hands with you. :hug:

[who45]

Poor pups have been thru so much already and I know this can't be easy for you either. Hope Madie is better soon. :hug:

[AgentSun]

my point was that in people the manic depression cycle is a certain way and in animals it may not be so different.

[scrape_medic]

Things that can trigger mental health problems in humans..
- chemical imbalances as a normal process of the body
- organic causes, imbalances of nutrient intake, viral or bacterial infection
- loss of control
- inability to appreciate the situation
- head trauma
- trigger factors including historical events
- low self esteem, nervousness, and other personality traits

All of which could apply to any animal as most of the processes are present in all animals.

diagnosis should be by ruling out organic causes, blood tests x-rays etc

then by looking for extremes of behaviour, socialbility, comprehension, train of thought ( a little harder to see in a dog, but looking for things like how she behaves given various stimuli like food toys etc may be able to help).

[AgentSun]

could it be especially worse for puppies and kittens who are abandoned? i've heard of dogs and cats who are abused or abandoned being more jittery around people and later on, after they've found some kind of balance or normalcy, revert to being jittery on occasion. it's one of freud's defense mechanisms in humans, could it also apply for animals?

[Judith]

Yeah, maybe she's experiencing some stress over her previous situation, even though she's in a good home now?

(I love how we're all armchair animal psychoanalysts all of a sudden). ;)

[StarsGoBlue]

hey g, if she's hard to control with the harness and the collar doesn't work... i've seen a collar-type thingy that looks like a horse's halter, with a loop around the muzzle that is supposed to make them easier to control without the whole choking problem. maybe you can look into something like that?

good luck with the pupperdogs. :hug:

[grinner]

got off the phone with the vet... she said that the dog isn't manic-depressed, but rather is manic/stress related problems. that's why the phenobarbitol was prescribed. I need to keep her from getting manic and stressed, so calm things for a while. The depression was from when she and her sisters were left alone for large numbers of hours without getting out or being around humans. Since she was raised by humans from her first day of life, she is more susceptible to periods of stress and depression when left alone for longer than 10 hours.

[BrowderChick]

When you leave to go to work, put the tv on for her to watch. Ive done this for Holly all her life. She will curl up and watch it all day. The radio never worked for her because it made her go bonkers listening to a voice but seeing anyone there. Put it on something that you know will be happy all day for her like Nick. Do you walk the dogs together or each seperately? I would walk her seperately and to an area thats quiet. A place without alot of activity. Its tough with more than one dog in the house. Its just like raising kids. Each one is different and each one needs a different way of attention. :hug:

[who45]

got off the phone with the vet... she said that the dog isn't manic-depressed, but rather is manic/stress related problems. that's why the phenobarbitol was prescribed. I need to keep her from getting manic and stressed, so calm things for a while. The depression was from when she and her sisters were left alone for large numbers of hours without getting out or being around humans. Since she was raised by humans from her first day of life, she is more susceptible to periods of stress and depression when left alone for longer than 10 hours. Is this something that she will eventually overcome to a certain degree or will she she have to stay on the meds for the rest of her life?

[grinner]

probably will be on the meds for the rest of her life

[who45]

:( I hope it gets better though for her.

[zahncrelnik]

Some dogs experience a great deal of stress every time their human companion(s)
leave them. That in addition to any of the other previously described problems
(in this thread), well, it can add up...

[BlackThorn]

Thanks for the clarification, grinner. That makes sense.

[Judith]

Springers, as you probably know by now, are really intelligent dogs, and a lot of their behavioral problems stem from them being bored and not having enough mental stimulation. So I could see how her previous situation could exert such a large amount of stress over her.

The TV idea is good...also, you can look into interactive toys...like the ones where you put treats inside and they have to figure out how to get them out. You can leave a couple of those set up when you go to work, and she'll have something to occupy her mind.

[grinner]

They rock out to country music. I have to leave the radio set to a country station as that appears to be the music of choice for these 3 dogs. They don't like punk or metal... so usually when I am sitting in front of the computer listening to that, they hide downstairs or in my bedroom. Unless they really want to be near me, then they all lay under my feet below my computer desk. 3 big dogs, no where to place my feet.

[who45]

:lol I just can't imagine you having to listen to country music.

[AgentSun]

do they make doggie headphones?

[scrape_medic]

yeah they call them "woofers"

[who45]

:rollin: