Drannit? [spoilers for 3.09 Green Eyed Monster]

[Jack's_Son]

Long time Scapian, first time poster. For all you seasoned Farscape fans, I pose a question. Now that I have a big ole wide-screen tv (with a complete surround-sound setup), I've been rewatching Farscape from season one. I rewatched season three's "Green Eyed Monster" last night and I came upon an Aeryn and Talyn-John scene that had me wondering. It's the scene where:

(cut back to Talyn. BlackJohn is in the airlock examining the mooring controls and Aeryn is on the hunt for him. Her expression is colder than usual as she joins him)

BlackJohn: Cable's fine. Mooring control is totally buggered, but we should be able to cut loose if we have to.

Aeryn: (not interested in the cable) What's your problem?

BlackJohn: (glancing at her and asking evenly) Shouldn't you be with Crais?

Aeryn: He's sleeping. Answer the question.

BlackJohn: (he turns to face her in the cold blue glow of the emergency light) Aeryn, I am - doing everything I can to get us out of this absurdly large space monster. I am doing the good little soldier bit. What else do you want from me?

Aeryn: I want you to stop acting like a drannit.

BlackJohn: You know what? I have no idea what a drannit is.

Aeryn: No don't play dumb with me. That hasn't worked for over 2 cycles John.

BlackJohn: Aeryn - I am dumb! I don't understand you half the time and I have no idea what a drannit is!

Aeryn: Fine! Forget the drannit!

BlackJohn: (he can't help but smile a bit at the absurdity of the argument) Fine! Screw the drannit! (Aeryn senses the ridiculousness the spat so quickly descended into as well and can't help but return his smile tightly) What?

Aeryn: You really have no idea what a drannit is do you?

BlackJohn: (there's a moments pause - and he has to ask) What's a drannit? (but we'll never know the answer, for at that moment, Stark, having won his own absurd battle on the pod, breaks in via comm)


Now, my question is, why did the fact that Talyn-John did not KNOW what a drannit is, so important to Aeryn? If you were to look at her expression during the interchange, it seemed there was a bit of an epiphany for Aeryn at that moment. Was it simply that with that simple interchange, Aeryn realized that Talyn-John was as irreverent as Moya-John and that the two, indeed, were equal and original? Anyone have any insight on that scene? I believe there was more there than just the absurdity of the conversation.

[SpyderDan]

I never thought much of it actually. Except that I still want to know what a dannit is...

Oh and welcome to FMD!

[NS_scaper]

I don't thik she is realizing that there is a difference between the 2 johns I think she is realizing he is different from her and everyone she knows. human vrs sabation (sp)

[chasa]

Now, my question is, why did the fact that Talyn-John did not KNOW what a drannit is, so important to Aeryn?

I don't think it *is* that important to her -- the larger argument is what she's upset about and she thinks he's trying to be intentionally obtuse to avoid it. She asks what his problem is when the scene begins...even though they've already had a big blowout earlier in the ep, she still doesn't fully understand his jealousy over her taking the neural interface, which she viewed as necessary and he viewed as essentially her becoming part of one big happy family with Talyn and Crais (there are lots of wedding references in the script) and shoving him out. The "drannit" bit is a moment of levity that helps to dissipate some of the tension between them, and also helps to show their chemistry in an ep where they've been at odds. To me, the expression on her face during that exchange is one of suppressed amusement over the mental image of screwing a drannit (whatever ridiculous, gross, absurd or horrifying thing it is).

It's certainly not addressed anywhere in the episodes, but I've always thought that Aeryn compartmentalized when it came to the twinned Johns (until Fractures, when she can't do that anymore). The crew was busy dealing with constant crises and I don't think any of them had a lot of time to sit around extensively pondering the situation, Aeryn included. Once she and one twin go off on Talyn, they don't know when they'll see the Moya crew again. I think at that point, Aeryn simply lives in the here and now and considers the John she's with to be John...maybe thoughts here or there about the fact that there's another one and they may have to deal with that in the future...but not for now. So, I don't think she was trying to reconcile the two in her head during this scene in GEM.

[Jack's_Son]

Chasa,

That was a well thought out explanation. Thank you for that. I guess it's always easy for me to read too much into their expressions. Aeryn is such a fascinating character and actress, that I sometimes get caught up in her facial expressions. I also believe that what NS_Scaper says bears a bit of truth. Perhaps Aeryn sometimes falls into the pitfall of thinking of John as a Sebacean. The more John becomes acclimated to Aeryn's world, the easier it is for her to forget that he is "Human". Later on, in that very episode, Aeryn finds wonder in the fact that John has been like a plague in her life and turned it upside down. The plea to Talyn, that she "needed" John, may have opened Aeyrn's eyes. Their very next scene is in the opening scene of "Relativity", and we all know what that was. :=)


SpyderDan, thanks for the welcome. BTW, if you search the web for "Drannit", you'll easily find the definition.

[chasa]

Oh, sure -- I agree that she sometimes temporarily forgets that he's not from the same background as her. Easy for both of them to do as the two species don't differ much physically and because they've spent so much time around each other. And I *definitely* agree that this episode is when Aeryn fully accepts (in the face of losing him after Talyn shuts him out) how much she needs him...it's a turning point.

And you're welcome, for whatever my impressions were worth :) Your post caught my eye because I've been spending *way* too much time repeatedly rewatching this episode lately (I'm a vidder and am working on a project about this ep...need to know it forwards and backwards), so it's front and center in my brain.

[ctheokas]

I think her realization in that specific exchange is more to the effect that he's very very different from what she's used to encountering. The ep is about her coming to realize that she can't deny her feelings more him. If she comes to any conclusion about TJohn, it is perhaps that she thinks he's the real thing. The idea of MJohn and TJohn being equal isn't an issue at this point.

See, I think the writers and producers wanted us to think in terms of clones, of there being an original and a copy, when in fact that isn't the case. Because if you notice, the language after "Eat Me" changes when it comes to the two Johns.

[Jack's_Son]

ctheokas,

So you also think there was more to the exchange than a simple ridiculous topic? As I said, I thought I saw (or felt) that the conversation was enlightening to Aeryn at that point. Certainly it could have been her forgotten recognition of his "alien-ness", as NS_scaper said.

You say "Because if you notice, the language after 'Eat Me' changes when it comes to the two Johns." Could you be more specific?

[Nicola]

I don't think the writers wanted us to think in terms of clones - an original and a copy. They make it more than evident at the end of Eat Me with Kaarvoks voice over during the two Johns "Rock Paper Scissors" scene - the one where neither wins. "I doubled you. I... twinned you. Equal... and original."

That line is delivered twice during the episode and in addition Kaarvock explains the twinning to D'Argo in great detail.

Not to mention that that specific line is repeated in the "Previously on Farscape" bits - the audience is meant to understand that both John's are real. Neither is the copy.

However... just 'cause the audience is meant to understand the equal and original concept, doesn't mean that characters do.

John has a hard time with the concept.
Aeryn has a hard time with the concept.
Chiana has a very hard time with the concept (especially with her own twinning)
D'Argo struggles with the idea also.

Neither Stark nor Rygel seem to have difficulty with the concept for various character specific reasons.

If you look at the breakdown of how the crew was split... it is clear that the writers were milking this situation for all it was worth.

MoyaJohn wonders if he is the copy - and both Chiana and D'Argo have a hard time with the concept themselves. They are all on Moya.

TalynJohn also wonders if he is the copy - but he is with Aeryn and that takes precidence. And Aeryn doesn't want to think about the implicatoins of twinning. Stark and Rygel accept TalynJohn as John without question, and Crais ... is dealing with his own feelings towards Aeryn so he isn't really going to worry about whether John is a copy or not.

While the writers wanted the audience to clue into the fact that both Johns were the 'real' John - the characters were allowed, in fact, were mandated, to have problems with the concept.

But the original question of this thread?

Aeryn forgets that John is not a PK. Or even Sebecean. "No don't play dumb with me. That hasn't worked for over 2 cycles John."

The two of them do not share same cultural references. She doesn't understand John's jealousy. He doesn't understand what a drannit is.

That is the point of that conversation.

[Jack's_Son]

It's interesting how so simple an exchange like the one we are discussing, could be seen so differently by us. I, for one, understood that the writers wanted the viewers to understand that each Crichton was "separate but equal", so I didn't think clone.

However, I do believe that Aeryn was sort of reawakened to the fact that John is neither PK nor Sebacean. That's why she made the reference at the end of the episode of a "Human" entering her life like a plague.

Nicola, you make a good point about the emphasis of the exchange when you explained that she didn't understand his jealousy, and he didn't know what a drannit was. There is a distinct difference between their two worlds. Aeryn realizes eventually in the episode, that if they are to be together, they must overcome their cultural differences. She must learn to accept that fact. I guess she comes to grip with it, because the following exchange shows her recoginition of it:

Aeryn: It's not real. You know that don't you? The - um - the last part. Talyn - altered the image. I never - recreated with Crais. Not that it should matter.

BlackJohn: It does.

Aeryn: It never did before. See, uh - I had this life. I liked it! it had rules - I followed the rules - and that made everything right. And then you come along and you frell everything up. S-strange human, - with - arrogance, stubbornness...

BlackJohn: Dumb.

Aeryn: Let me finish. You saw the recording - and you didn't say a word. You are like a plague, John Crichton. And you have ruined my life. And yet I just -keep coming back. You can talk now.


Her comment about John seeing the recording and not saying a word seems contradictory though. In her world, would another PK mention the contents of the recording? Would Valorek have questioned Aeryn about a tryst? Perhaps a Human would, but a PK soldier?

[ctheokas]

I don't think the writers wanted us to think in terms of clones - an original and a copy.

See, I disagree with that part of your argument. I agree with the rest pretty much, but that part, not so much.

If they wanted us to remember that the Johns were twins, then there would have been something ringing out, even if it were under the surface of things. But it wasn't. Every one of the characters kept talking about the situation in terms of original and copy. And if you hammer that home often enough, most of your audience is going to start thinking in those terms, too.

Look at how people talk about TJohn's death. It's usually voted one of the top 10 moments in Farscape, if not the number 1 moment of the series. What if MJohn had died during Scratch-n-Sniff? Or Losing Time? Or even Revenging Angel? Do you think the tears would have flowed as much for MJohn? I don't think they would have.

TJohn got all the heavy story lines (Aeryn's mother, saving the galaxy from the Scarrans, dying a meaningful hero's death, and so on). MJohn got to galavant around the galaxy and have adventures, and wonder about his status (am I the original, or the copy?). As a writer/storyteller, why would you give the heavy stories to the copy? Why would you give the lighter stories to the original?

So I think this was done to distract us on one hand, and to get us to sympathise with Aeryn on the other, because she clearly thought she was with the original.

[Jack's_Son]

ctheokas,

I think the writers intentionally played up Talyn-John's heroics to highlight not only the romance, but his death. T-J's death had such an impact precisely because of what he and Aeryn had achieved both in victories AND romance. Also, his death was a "reset" of the romance. The writers needed to dial down on the romance and reduce the sexual tension between Aeryn and John. I thought it was a brilliant plan to, in effect, start the romance all over again. It's easy to think of original and clone, but although the characters may have gone through that process, the writers went out of their way to make sure the viewers understood that they were BOTH original.

That's why that whole debate about which Crichton is the father is silly to me. John Crichton is Lil D's dad. Not Talyn-John or Moya-John, just John. They're the same people. The only thing that's different is they have separate memories after the split.


BTW, I couldn't help notice that you reside in Queens. I'm from Queens. Although I was born in Manhattan, I moved to Queens at two months old and lived there until I joined the service when I was twenty. I'm a Flushing High grad. :D

[ctheokas]

You're right about how to perceive the whole John situation, Jack's Son. But I do think the writers were trying to throw things off, get our sympathy to TJohn for the romance with Aeryn. If that sympathy and - to a degree - loyalty wasn't there, his death would have had less impact.

I think the reset was brilliant, getting to start all that stuff over again. I really can't remember that happening in another show, to be honest.

By the by, I'm in Kew Gardens, though I'm originally from Washington, DC. I got to NYC about 2 1/2 years ago. I love it here. I can imagine living other places, but it doesn't have the same, as the French would say, "I don't know what."

[Jack's_Son]

RevolutionsSF - Q&A with Anthony Simcoe and Rockne S. O'Bannon (http://revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=435)

This is from a Q & A with Anthony Simcoe and Rockne S. O'Bannon:


On the "Two Crichtons" story arc:

RO: The really baffling dynamic in terms of splitting the Crichtons was that… one isn't the real one and one isn't the clone. They are both, literally, John Crichton. That's what makes it incredibly difficult. Each of those individuals refer to the other one as the clone. Because if there was another one of you sitting next to you, you would think that you were the real one, and he was the fake. They are both John Crichton. And that's what makes it really distinctive and really difficult, especially in terms of the relationship with Aeryn, and the relationship between them as well.

How did the idea of doing the duplicate Crichton come about?

AS: Rockne can answer from the writer perspective. But we've actually hit on a very real problem that we had… and partly to do with the whole Zhaan/Virginia thing. We've got some people doing really long hours in lots of makeup. And it's no surprise that you see all the Moya eps with the make-upped characters, and all the Talyn eps with all the Sebacians and humans. And what that's enabled us to do is to give us a couple of days off from wearing all this crap every single day.

And that was part of the intention. We're tired. We're all working incredibly hard, doing 70-80 hour weeks. And we were burnt out a little bit. And so what this split in season three enabled us make-upped actors to do was to have a couple of days off. And that was one of the practical reasons for splitting the show in two, apart from the very real storytelling reasons.

RO: So often, creative decisions come to help service the production. One of the juggles of writing television is the time constraints and production constraints and all that sort of thing. In the same way… having Scorpius being the Harvey version of Scorpius in Crichton's mind allows us to have Scorpius and Wayne in the show far more often, so he isn't just an Inspector Gerard like from The Fugitive, where he's always chasing this enormous ship that's hard to miss and always kind of missing it.

It's a way of getting Wayne into the show on a regular basis. Creatively, it works very very well, in terms of some of the most fun stuff we do with Wayne, in terms of the costumes he's in and the attitude and all that. But it also serves us from a production point of view, in getting Wayne on the show each episode.

[Nicola]

See, I disagree with that part of your argument. I agree with the rest pretty much, but that part, not so much.

If they wanted us to remember that the Johns were twins, then there would have been something ringing out, even if it were under the surface of things. But it wasn't. Every one of the characters kept talking about the situation in terms of original and copy. And if you hammer that home often enough, most of your audience is going to start thinking in those terms, too.

The writers did tell us. In the "Previously on Farscape" bits... over and over and over.

The audience was supposed to know that the two John were the same - not one original and one clone - but the same.

The characters, however, were allowed to have problems with the concept.

The writers tho, made the point repeatedly, so that the audience understood the 'equal and original' concept and that the characters problems were not ours.

It was interesting to watch the characters move through their struggles - and I did empathise but.... as an audience we were not supposed to be confused about which one was real. They were both real.

Look at how people talk about TJohn's death. It's usually voted one of the top 10 moments in Farscape, if not the number 1 moment of the series. What if MJohn had died during Scratch-n-Sniff? Or Losing Time? Or even Revenging Angel? Do you think the tears would have flowed as much for MJohn? I don't think they would have.

Of course we bought into the TalynJohn/Aeryn dynamic, because John without Aeryn is lost. But that doesn't make MoyaJohn any less John. It makes MoyaJohn lost without Aeryn. Aeryn - his guiding star... as well as TalynJohn's.

And yes, of course we are upset about TalynJohns death. He was real! He was not the clone. He was ... equal and original. He was John.

TJohn got all the heavy story lines (Aeryn's mother, saving the galaxy from the Scarrans, dying a meaningful hero's death, and so on). MJohn got to galavant around the galaxy and have adventures, and wonder about his status (am I the original, or the copy?). As a writer/storyteller, why would you give the heavy stories to the copy? Why would you give the lighter stories to the original?

I don't think they did. I am a big fan of the Talyn Cycle. Huge - and when I am in the mood I have been known to binge on just the Talyn episodes. And I admit that the first time I watched the series I couldn't wait to ditch MoyaJohn and get back to Talyn.

But now... the episodes I find the most engaging are the Moya John eps and how the TalynJohn episodes parallel the ones on Moya. Superficially the parallels aren't aways evident and aren't always direct - but they are there. Scratch n' Sniff (Freslin/Drexim) the symbolism of John's pulse pistol (or lack thereof), Losing Time (John's self-doubt/sacrifical imagery, plus Chi's arc and oddly enough 'smell'), Revenging Angel, and the knowledge that both John's were dead at the same time - not to mention that if the audience breaksdown the cartoon storyline of Revenging Angel into events - it mirrors TalynJohn's arc.

So I think this was done to distract us on one hand, and to get us to sympathise with Aeryn on the other, because she clearly thought she was with the original.

Yes. No question. But Aeryn's problem with the concept of equal and orginal was not meant to be the audiences problem. At no time were we ever to fall into the trap of thinking that one John was the original and one was the copy.

The writers made that point clear.

[Nicola]

Aeryn: Let me finish. You saw the recording - and you didn't say a word. You are like a plague, John Crichton. And you have ruined my life. And yet I just -keep coming back. You can talk now.


Her comment about John seeing the recording and not saying a word seems contradictory though. In her world, would another PK mention the contents of the recording? Would Valorek have questioned Aeryn about a tryst? Perhaps a Human would, but a PK soldier?

Another PK wouldn't have cared about the recording - or if they did they would have shrugged it off. But John obviously did care - his reaction was significant and Aeryn is upset - well ... for a multitude of reasons - but at that point she is upset because John's cultural biases are not hers - she can't guess at them - and he didn't say anything to her about his feelings/his reaction.

Aeryn isn't a mind reader and he knows that. Just as he doesn't know what a drannit is, she isn't going to recognise jealousy.

And if he doesn't explain it to her - she is just as lost as he is without his guiding star.

(And wasn't that a nice way way to bring in the whole "center of the universe" concept? :jester: )

[Jack's_Son]

Oh, I know Aeryn can't fathom why John would be acting so coldly to her, but deep down inside, she has to sense a bit of his jealousy. Aeryn spoke of being "ambushed" and she was *definitely* pissed when she walked in on John and Gelina kissing in "Pk Tech Girl". So, she has some concept of the emotion. In fact, I think Aeryn would have to have been blind to miss the implications of what she and Crais were proposing and how it would appear to John. John walks in on Aeryn and Crais obviously buttoning up in the command center, and she can't fathom how it would appear to him? Granted, the director was leading us to the obvious conclusions, but I think under the circumstances, and in their current state of professed love, Aeryn has to be close enough to John, now, to know some of what he's feeling.

Incidentally, what's your take on Crais' setting up John by directing him to his quarters where John can "accidentally" find that vidchip? Crais had to have known the contents, if not had Talyn alter the image. To make it appear as if it's all Talyn's fault is INCREDIBLY cowardly. Crais may be a fine warrior but as a man, I think Rygel has bigger mivonks. (And I don't even think Rygel HAS mivonks)

[Nicola]

You have to remember that Talyn is in the belly of a budong when John watches the chip and is suddenly in the maw of another (different) 'green eyed monster' (love the layers of this show ;) ).

Aeryn is a bit focused on survival - not why John is behaving like such a drannit. Crais has just shared the most appalling bit of information with Aeryn (the lesions and boils over his body caused by an immature and heedlessly cruel Talyn throwing fits when he wants his own way). Plus - knowing the risk - she still recognises the necessity of taking the neural interface with Talyn and is willing to sacrifice her well being for the good of the crew. Not because she wants to be with Crais - but because she wants them all to live.

AERYN: What's the matter with you? This is the right thing to do.
CRICHTON: For who?
AERYN: For all of us. He needs my help to control Talyn to get us out!

Somehow John suddenly throwing snit fits and saying bizarre and cutting things that she doesn't understand "To throw rice?" is not going to make her stop and think... oh, he must be jealous. Especially when (a) she hasn't done anything to make him feel jealous, (b) she has NO idea that there is a chip of Crais and her makin' whoopie, (c) much less that John has seen it and (d) what the heck does rice have to do with anything anyway?

She is focused on survival. John is throwing jealous snit fits.

I understand John's perspective - but I have to say in this situation - Aeryn is the one with which I empathise. John Crichton is cute and all - but sometimes he is such a drannit.

About the chip. IMO I think that Talyn was the sole conscious entity behind the chip. But he did it with Crais very much in mind. Talyn is not a passive creature - and he is at least as intelligent as any of them. Talyn wants Aeryn on board permanently because he also loves her - not just because Crais loves her. He also wants Aeryn for his 'father' Crais. And he wants John neutralised and preferably dead because John is in the way of his plans - Crais' perfect little family: Daddy, Mommy and baby Talyn.

That is why Aeryn had to show Talyn what her feelings were for John.

AERYN to Talyn: You can taste something that is denied to Peacekeepers. Something that you will never know.
CRICHTON presses his fingers to the portal, whispers: Aeryn...
AERYN: Can you feel that...? Good. Talyn... that is what it is to need someone. You don't need me... you never will.

Talyn had to understand that Aeryn needed something that neither he nor Crais could give her. That is the point where Talyn realised that if he doesn't let Aeryn have Crichton he will have lost whatever part of Aeryn he did have.

Talyn grew up a little bit at that point.

And Crais? He is a complicated character. He is what I would describe as piebald. Black and white with very few shades of grey - and you never quite know which way he is going to jump in any given situation.

Fabulous character. Really.

[Moya's Starburst]

Nicola that was very well put could not of said it better...^^

Although in that Talyn bit where Aeryn was supposed to of had "sex" with Crais, i thought she did untill she explained things in this ep cos it looked like that in the season two ep (can't remember name)lol just that it was phrased in way to tease us....lol those evil script writers...

[Nicola]

Nicola that was very well put could not of said it better...^^



It doesn't happen often enough - but every now and then I actually manage to put words and phrases together that make sense. ;)

[Nicola]

Although in that Talyn bit where Aeryn was supposed to of had "sex" with Crais, i thought she did untill she explained things in this ep cos it looked like that in the season two ep (can't remember name)lol just that it was phrased in way to tease us....lol those evil script writers...

The Liars, Guns and Money trilogy. Crais has been trying to get Aeryn for a long time - there might even be a case made for his interest in her preceeding the first episode. If you look for it, there are indications that Crais is trying to lure Aeryn right from start - and not just to get her to turn in Crichton.

[Jack's_Son]

The Liars, Guns and Money trilogy. Crais has been trying to get Aeryn for a long time - there might even be a case made for his interest in her preceeding the first episode. If you look for it, there are indications that Crais is trying to lure Aeryn right from start - and not just to get her to turn in Crichton.

Start? Nicola, what do you mean by start? Do you mean LGM1? Certainly, Aeryn came to his attention in TWWW, which pre-dates Premiere, but even then I think she just caught his eye because she turned in Velorek.

IMHO, Crais holds no fascination for me. I think he's truly flawed. Everything he did was self-serving. I think in the end, he knew that the only way to redeem himself in Aeryn's eyes was to emulate Crichton's actions by performing his only true selfless act in 'Into the Lion's Den, Part 2: "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" ' (see Aeryn's small recognition Aeryn: "Now you go") Even in ITLD2, Crais couldn't know the ultimate outcome of Talyn's starburst within Scory's Command Carrier. He was a dead man anyway. One could argue that he DID try to save Aeryn in "The Choice", but even then he was smarmy. Not as smarmy as Stark, though. Now that's a character!

[Nicola]

In the first episode, "Premiere" there is a moment when Aeryn and Crais are on screen at the same time - and there is a current of awareness between the two of them that seems ... notable. The episdoe moves very fast and that moment is not followed up on ... then - but through Season One Crais does try to appeal to Aeryn directly - almost as though they had a personal connection that goes beyond nameless Prowler Pilot. In TWWW after Aeryn turns in Velorek and is told "no ordinary PK would do such a thing" - Crais looks at Aeryn intently.

There was never a physical relationship with Crais (Aeryn says so in GEM) but there was an awareness between the two characters - and had things been different (no Velorek, no Crichton) Aeryn and Crais might have connected - if only briefly.

[Jack's_Son]

In the first episode, "Premiere" there is a moment when Aeryn and Crais are on screen at the same time - and there is a current of awareness between the two of them that seems ... notable. The episdoe moves very fast and that moment is not followed up on ... then - but through Season One Crais does try to appeal to Aeryn directly - almost as though they had a personal connection that goes beyond nameless Prowler Pilot. In TWWW after Aeryn turns in Velorek and is told "no ordinary PK would do such a thing" - Crais looks at Aeryn intently.

There was never a physical relationship with Crais (Aeryn says so in GEM) but there was an awareness between the two characters - and had things been different (no Velorek, no Crichton) Aeryn and Crais might have connected - if only briefly.


Disgusting!!! J/K, seriously, I'm more of the opinion that the two instances you mention were just "notices". I didn't sense anything to indicate interest. In Premiere, I assume you're talking about the incident in the marketplace where Crais comes up behind D'argo as he confronts Crichton and Aeryn. During that moment, I don't really think Crais paid Aeryn any mind. Certainly when she approached him and he walked directly past her to confront Crichton, he showed no interest. Again, when she explained to him that she didn't think Crichton was brave enough or smart enough to have directly caused Tauvo's death, Crais, again, didn't appear to pay her any attention other than to deem her irrevocably contaminated.

In the second instance, in TWWW, I believe you're thinking about the moment when the PK security guards came in to arrest Velorek. There was the scene when Crais was leaving and he looked at Aeryn "intently". Again, I really don't think he looked "interested". I just think he was looking at her to see if Aeryn showed any guilt for what she had done. After all, it was her duty to turn Velorek in, and if Aeryn showed any remorse, she easily could have been arrested or come under suspicion herself.

I suppose my distaste for Crais could color my perception of any possible romantic interest there. So, your comment, "had things been different (no Velorek, no Crichton) Aeryn and Crais might have connected - if only briefly." leaves a queasy feeling in my stomach. Don't forget, Crais was also involved with Lt. Larell (ITLD2), so I don't think he would have been interested in a grunt pilot. In truth, I don't think much of Crais, and oddly enough, think he was less of a man than Scorpius was. Scorpius, IMHO, NEVER did anything self-serving. (Except with the possible exceptions of pleasuring himself with Natira and Sikozu) Everything I've seen Scorpius do was in the best interest of the Sebacean people. Crais killed his second in command, AFTER she had just helped him by disobeying High Command, merely so HE could disobey said command and go after a man who clearly was just in the way of his reckless brother.

** As you can tell, I REALY don't like Crais :D **

[Nicola]

I didn't say it would be a deep connection - certainly not one like he wanted with Aeryn after he kidnapped Talyn (Dad, Mom and Baby Leviathan) - but it is something to consider. By the way - go back and watch Premiere - Crais is absolutely focused on Crichton, but - especially when Crais comes up behind Aeryn to ask her what she knows of Crichton, there is an awareness between the two characters.

Crais does tend to elicit strong responses from the viewing audience, but like all Farscape villians, he is not one dimensional. There are layers to Lani's performance that are complex and fascinating if you give Crais a chance. ;)

[Jack's_Son]

Men in Aeyrn's Life
Velorek
Crichton
Crais


The first two share common traits that the last one doesn't:

Compassion, gentleness, loving


Crais is clearly lacking in all three traits. He really never even spoke to Talyn with anything less than a gruff voice. The only time he was soft-spoken with Talyn was to get him to starburst in the command carrier. He's never even stroked Talyn, well at least not like John did when he was getting ready to distract the crew by taking Scorpy on a run through the wormhole. I just don't think Crais is Aeryn's type. When Crais left for the final time, Aeryn just laid her hand on his face and patted it. That's the closest Aeryn has ever come to showing any emotion to Crais. Please don't mention that horrendous scene in "The Choice" where Aeryn says, "If I close my eyes..." :(

[Moya's Starburst]

Aeryn in the mourning ep says to Crais "you always wanted to take me away from Crichton, now here's your chance.." she then sits on his lap...but Crais rebuffs her cos she is going furhbot after loosing Crichton...now there you go.....add the bit in LGAM last ep where Aeryn says "take what you want i wont stop you..." before that..then the ep GEM where Talyn replays it.....see where the sinuation is..? Crais and Aeryn could of but impossible. If it weren't for John they would not be outcasts that is what their connection was peacekeeper outcasts...if any bond where established that is it.

[Jack's_Son]

Aeryn in the mourning ep says to Crais "you always wanted to take me away from Crichton, now here's your chance.." she then sits on his lap...but Crais rebuffs her cos she is going furhbot after loosing Crichton...now there you go.....add the bit in LGAM last ep where Aeryn says "take what you want i wont stop you..." before that..then the ep GEM where Talyn replays it.....see where the sinuation is..? Crais and Aeryn could of but impossible. If it weren't for John they would not be outcasts that is what their connection was peacekeeper outcasts...if any bond where established that is it.

None of those things indicate Aeryn's TRUE feelings. Each occurred at a desperate time. Once, when Aeryn would have done anything to save Crichton, and the other after she was devastated by his loss and saying anything. John is not the reason Aeryn was an outcast, SHE is. She opened her mouth to Crais about John. If she had said nothing, she'd still be a peacekeeper. There is no bond between Aeryn and Crais, other than that of a former commander and a soldier.

[Nicola]

There is no bond between Aeryn and Crais, other than that of a former commander and a soldier.

That is your opinion and you get to have it. Other people get to have a differing one. I, for example, see a huge amount of subtext being played by Claudia Black in "Premiere" with respect to her relationship with Crais.

I also hear that Crais feels a lot of desire for Aeryn - which as Moya's Starburst listed - is made canon several times during the series. Desire that grows through the series rather than evaporates.

Would Aeryn - had she stayed as the good little PK - developed a physical relationship with Crais? Maybe. A peacekeeper relationship.

But she didn't. She was declared (by Crais no less) irreversibly contaminated and ran for her life. And we know - from what Aeryn said in GEM that there never was a physical relationship between her and Crais. That doesn't mean that Crais didn't want one - which is something that Aeryn points out in "The Choice".

That is my opinion backed up by scenes, subtext and lines from the show.

[Jack's_Son]

Nicola,

I didn't mean to imply that my opinion is the only one. :=)

While I realize that Crais grew to desire Aeryn, I don't see any interest by her. He hardly spoke to her in Premiere and almost less in TWWW. She asked him for transfer, and I don't even remember him replying. IIRC, he simply walked away from her. I said there is no bond between Aeryn and Crais, IMHO, however there is desire from Crais for Aeryn. From the scenes I've seen, Crais was involved with the Leftenant and Aeryn was involved Velorek. Before that, Aeryn was on prowler duty and just got transferred to transport duty during the switching of Moya's pilot. I can't see Aeryn and Crais, in their current or past positions, even knowing each other.

We've discussed their interaction in Premiere, and like I said before, I didn't notice anything. That doesn't mean it wasn't there.
If I take Premiere as a stand-alone episode, with no episodes to follow, I wouldn't have the ability to notice the nuances of their interaction. Perhaps taken in the context of what was to follow, I may see something. However, I've seen the episode twice in the past month, and still didn't pick anything up. If you believe there was, then excellent, it makes Farscape even more convoluted.

[Jack's_Son]

Oh, I just made a connection in the "well d'uh" zone. When Premiere began, Aeryn was back on Prowler duty, so Crais did follow through on his word. However, when the bridge reported two prowlers missing, one with Officer Aeryn Sun, Crais didn't react, as I recall. I know he was concerned about his brother, but he didn't even react. At least not to me.

Again, I apologize if I came off rather huffy. It wasn't my intent.

[Nicola]

Oh, I just made a connection in the "well d'uh" zone. When Premiere began, Aeryn was back on Prowler duty, so Crais did follow through on his word. However, when the bridge reported two prowlers missing, one with Officer Aeryn Sun, Crais didn't react, as I recall. I know he was concerned about his brother, but he didn't even react. At least not to me.

Don't forget - Crais was in command of the carrier during a firefight. He was entirely focused on re-capturing Moya which was his job. At that point Crais was the 'consumate" Peacekeeper - except for his relationship with his brother he didn't have any deep emotional relationships. So he would know who the missing Prowler Pilot was - and probably even was attracted to her, but he wouldn't allow that to influence his decision making at that point in the conflict.

Again, I apologize if I came off rather huffy. It wasn't my intent.

Not a problem. :D It is easy to be miss understood on the forums... and Crais is - like I said - a piebald character. Really quite divisive when you think about it. Even at the end Crichton had no trouble believing that Crais had betrayed them - and Aeryn knew he hadn't. If those two couldn't agree on Crais - why should we? There is a strong case to be made both ways. ;)

[Natira]

In my opinion Crais didn't realize Aeryn a lot, I mean, she had to tell him who she is when they met again. So I think his interest began first to grow when he had a lot of interaction with her, before that she was imo only a simple soldier, nothing to think about, no one to remember.

[Nicola]

In my opinion Crais didn't realize Aeryn a lot, I mean, she had to tell him who she is when they met again. So I think his interest began first to grow when he had a lot of interaction with her, before that she was imo only a simple soldier, nothing to think about, no one to remember.

I disagree. Crais knew who Aeryn was from events in "The Way We Weren't" which took place in the timeline about 2 cycles earlier.

And Aeryn did not tell Crais who she was when they met again... she just pulled herself to attention and said: Captain Crais.

Crais knew who AEryn was - as is made clear in "The Way We Weren't" and their behaviour when they met in "Premiere". They were not friendly - probably because their respective situations kept them apart - but in watching the episode they were certainly aware of each others presence.

[Natira]

Its obviously impossible to get this two different opinions together. ;) In a few days I get my DVDs back and will watch the three episodes again, but I never saw any awarness, especially because of the way Crais seemed to forget Aeyn the moment he turned away from her (in TWWW). And I doubt if I ever see it, but I think that both views are right, you can see it this or that way.

[Jack's_Son]

Even at the end Crichton had no trouble believing that Crais had betrayed them - and Aeryn knew he hadn't. If those two couldn't agree on Crais - why should we? There is a strong case to be made both ways. ;)


Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Aeryn knew Crais hadn't betrayed them, since we never saw how she first reacted to Crais' proposal. It's quite possible she was initially as outraged as Crichton and then slowly came around as he did. I did get the sense that Crais implicated everyone except Aeryn, so that she could help in the plans.

Anyway, I rewatched "Kansas" and "Terra Firma" last night. Love that arc. Aeryn, on Earth, interacting with Crichton's family and friends. I've watched the series several times, and I still am drawn to these particular episodes.

[Jack's_Son]

[QUOTE=Nicola]I disagree. Crais knew who Aeryn was from events in "The Way We Weren't" which took place in the timeline about 2 cycles earlier.

And Aeryn did not tell Crais who she was when they met again... she just pulled herself to attention and said: Captain Crais.

Crais knew who AEryn was - as is made clear in "The Way We Weren't" and their behaviour when they met in "Premiere".[QUOTE]

One last word on the subject, according to the transcripts of Premiere, Crais knew Aeryn was with the Human down on the planet, so she didn't have to introduce herself.

Teeg: Captain! We are receiving a transmission from one of the outer systems. It's Aeryn Sun, the Prowler pilot we thought lost. She was taken captive aboard the Leviathan but she's escaped. She has the being from the white pod with her.

and later on:

(cut back to John, Aeryn has joined him)

Aeryn: Come on. I've relayed our rendezvous point and we can get off this waste hole of a planet. That's the Leviathans pod! They're getting away! Come on, we have to report it.