Again on the Copyright issue

[cofax]

While Savefarscape.com cannot make anyone else's decisions, we do have a clear policy in place regarding copyright issues. The Copyright FAQ is available at the top of this board, and also available in the FAQ on the main page of Savefarscape.com.

Unapproved commercial uses of Henson's copyrighted images are in direct conflict with our policy and we ask that you not advertise any such products here.

We understand that t-shirts, mugs, and artwork with pictures of the cast on them are fun; but we've wrestled with this issue for a while and come to the decision that respecting Farscape as we do, we also have to respect Farscape's creators' ownership of their own products.

That means no unapproved commercial uses of copyrighted images will be endorsed or encouraged by Savefarscape.com.

Thank you.

cofax

[cofax]

This is the situation with using images, pictures, logos, fonts, and characters from Farscape to advertise or support the campaign:

1. The Jim Henson Company and its licensees own all the intellectual property rights to Farscape and its characters. This includes pictures of the characters, character names, the name "Farscape" itself, and the Farscape font.

2. The fact that noncommercial fan sites use these images, characters, and font freely on the internet (and in zines) does not make statement 1, above, any less true.

3. Copyright law allows for "fair use" of intellectual property, if such use recognizes the original owner's rights. Courts are more likely to allow such "fair use" if it's a transformative use (like fan fiction or fan art or parody), and if it doesn't interfere with the original producer's market for the property (so you can't make a Farscape episode and sell it because that takes profit away from Henson), and if it doesn't cause confusion among consumers about which is the "official" product (which is why disclaimers are good).

Clear so far?

4. Television producers, including Henson, have occasionally cracked down on fan sites on the internet. Sometimes fans go too far (like posting vid clips from episodes) and the producers find that violation of copyright too much. Few fans have the money and resources to fight these battles, so these issues haven't been addressed by many courts.

5. What is clear is that any use for profit will be looked at with a very strict and careful eye -- by lawyers for the producers, and by the courts, if such a case gets to court. By "profit" I mean, "not distributed for free". Because by bringing money into the equation, the fans are taking money that by rights belongs to Henson.

6. Any website, banner, t-shirt, or other product with Farscape images (or logo or fonts) on it should clearly state that the images on it are used without permission and that Farscape and its characters belong to the Jim Henson Company.

7. To my knowledge, no one in the fan community has permission from the Jim Henson Company to use any images, graphics, or other property related to Farscape for the purposes of the Save Farscape Campaign. Henson has other obligations with regards to this property, other licensees involved, and, based on my correspondence with the Henson business office, I think it's probable they cannot legally grant such permission to anyone.

Henson has addressed our question on this matter previously: although we wish it were otherwise, we cannot grant or imply authorization to make use of any of the elements of the series.

8. SaveFarscape.com will respect the intellectual property rights Henson has in Farscape to the best of our ability. This means we will not sell unapproved copyrighted material to fund the campaign, will not allow advertisements for the sale of unapproved copyrighted material, and will include disclaimers on all our materials recognizing Henson's overriding ownership of Farscape and all its associated elements.

This is SaveFarscape.com's position. We cannot, of course, require anyone else to comply with it, but we strongly urge everyone in the campaign to protect themselves as much as possible by, at the very least, using disclaimers on their campaign materials.

Thank you for your attention.

cofax

[scaPer boi]

Just a hypothetical question here, could we use the actors in a commercial as long as they identified themselves by their real names?

[Darkness Ascending]

question, we are not actually a company to sue, and they wouldn't want the bad publisity anyway right?

[scaPer boi]

Originally posted by Darkness Ascending
question, we are not actually a company to sue, and they wouldn't want the bad publisity anyway right?
It would be better if we didn't do anything illegal in the first place, there is more than one entity involved here. Henson might not want to sue us, but sci-fi would!
:wb: :jedi: :argue: :flee:

[Demonique]

Originally posted by Darkness Ascending
question, we are not actually a company to sue, and they wouldn't want the bad publisity anyway right?

We still can be sued, at least the owners of the website can be if any of the owners of the FS copyright think they are allowing the promotion of unlicensed merchandise or the illegal use of images

[Demonique]

Originally posted by scaPer boi
It would be better if we didn't do anything illegal in the first place, there is more than one entity involved here. Henson might not want to sue us, but sci-fi would!


Not to mention Hallmark Entertainment or Channel 9 in Australia, both of whom I believe have a stake in the show

[angie]

As much as the legal factors it looks best for Henson if they stay apart from the fan movement. It would not look good to other potentional "homes" for Henson to be working hand in hand with us.The grassroots aspect looks better.Cofax is very much in the right of it and has posted very nicely the guidelines. We are doing great so far following these simple rules!<G>

angie

[cofax]

Folks, newcomers, old members: PLEASE read the Copyright FAQ and the posts at the top of this thread. It will answer many of your questions.

Thank you.

cofax

[locomoco]

cofax,
Not trying to stir up trouble, but why is it the stuffed DRD and the peacekeeper dolls are okay? And also the quilt (still in the making), assuming it includes Farscape images? Is it because they are one-of-a-kind items with all proceeds going to the campaign? Wouldn't they still be considered fan art for sale? I think they are all outstanding ways to raise campaign funds (and awareness), and I hope to see more, but they seem to come very close to these copyright issues.

locomoco

[nhfearme]

Cofax,

I need to know if these are ok for a Webmaster Association Cafepress shop.

http://www.cafeshops.com/ILoveJohn

I need them for cups, bumper sticker, license plate bracket & other items:

I love Aeryn
Mommy loves John
I break for leviathans
My other car is a Prowler
My other car is a Command Carrier
I left my heart in the Uncharted Territories

I want to use some of the campaign slogans. Are there any of those (minus the word Farscape) that are out?

“Love, sex & weapons of mass destruction.” Is my favorite if I have to make a choice.

I also read that I could use dialogue if I don’t use huge block of it. I’m thinking of using something like, “You should have met her mother.” Which has been used in other books, TV programs & movies. Is that fair game?

I have created a wormhole also, that will probably end up as a mousepad. These are the possible copy for it:

Oblivion? Or a doorway…
Jump in! The wormhole’s fine!
Happiness is a warm wormhole.

This graphic is already up:

[cofax]

No dialogue, please, that's copyrighted. I'd walk very carefully about the character names as well.

The campaign slogans are probably fine so long as you're not selling anything with the name "Farscape" on it.

Henson doesn't own the rights to wormholes, so that stuff is probably fine.

Just be aware that you tread a fine line, and we're not attorneys here. Whatever you set up, you bear the responsibility for. That said, the worst that is likely to happen is Henson sending a letter to shut the store down. It's your call.

[nhfearme]

My mother taught me to walk on eggshells... but that's because she never swept the floor!!! :lol

ty cofax :D

I'm still playing wit it.

[Scratch_n_Sniff]

No lawyer or expert, but I believe any copywritten material (non-trademarked) may be used under the following guidelines
I would say, a good quote/line "fetch the comfy chair" (which is STOLEN from copywritten monty python skits to begin with) or "whats this" 'a cat' "does it speak?" etc -- are all fair game -- I would personally add some form of acknowledgement (to Jim Henson & the show and the episode) though it may not be necessary


from:
http://www.gradschool.unh.edu/forms/manual.pdf

Use of Copyright Materials
When any copyrighted material is used extensively (normally over 200 words, although this can
vary from publishing house to publishing house), the author of the thesis must, for his or her own
protection, obtain written permission from the copyright owner (usually the publisher). You must always
seek written permission to quote a table, figure chapter, etc., presented in its entirety. Publishers,
particularly publishers of academic works, are usually quite willing to grant permission and normally
handle such requests quickly.


I realize you're busy/flooded cofax - but would you agree/disagree????
(again all, remember, I ain't no lawyer :) and academic quoting of academic material may be a different bag -- this whole commercial-tv-production biz "ain't my bag baby" (need I acknowledge Austin Powers, etc etc . no - but then again, I'm NOT trying to sell merchandise with the quote on it -- and THAT is probably the rub ....

nhfearme (who apparently isn't from NH like I had hoped) perhaps you should GIVE away the coffee mugs .... and sell the coffee in them as an "expensive premium blend" straight from the uncharted territories....

Now - if you want to talk(elsewhere) about data networking / 10 Gigabit Ethernet, now that IS my bag

[cofax]

Academic quotes, or quotes as part of reviews, generally fall under "fair use". People with more experience in the publishing industry can correct me, but there's definitely a limit to how much of a published work can be quoted in a review or such without permission of the original copyright owner.

That said, sale of copyrighted text would not fall under "fair use".

Lastly, it's my personal opinion that taking the words of DK or Ricky or one of the other writers and selling them for our own profit is at the least rude, and at the best inappropriate, given how much we respect their creative vision.

[Scratch_n_Sniff]

Thanks cofax -
definately agree - folks shouldn't be out to make money on other peoples work - but sounds like everyone is breaking their backs to promote/save our show! (and I might have put words in nhfearme's mouth -- the desire to make coffee mugs / bumperstickers etc does not mean (s)he's out to sell them -- could be promotional give-away material (I would hope so)
just looked at http://www.cafeshops.com/ILoveJohn -- ok -- so guess it is about selling -- but perhaps some creative souls can sell such promotional material at cost and/or cost+X - where X goes to the various campaign funds...
as a thought nhfearme, best thing to consider might be giving away so many (100s or 1000s) with www.cafeshopes.com on the bottom to boot -- still might not be legal though as you'ld be using that copywritten material to promote your own site - so perhaps the best thing to do is (a) give the stuff away as savefarscape.com promotional material -- or (b) stay away from the copywritten stuff entirely as cofax instructs.

[nhfearme]

Excuse... I don't want to break up the fight...

I just wanted to find another source of amusement for the tired and quickly losing hope peeps of the campaign while finding another source of revenue to run ads and pay for projects.

Not personal, not a grab for cash. Just something for us.

I suppose I could sell them blank, but where would be the fun in that? I developed a cute little logo in the beginning but it has the word FarScape in it and therefore had to be pulled. That was very dissappointing since it would allow us to proclaim our love for FarScape to the outside world!

Here is the original thread that tells the whole story. There are *Free* Postcards and bumper stickers in it. :D

http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6837

I can take it a step further and print stickers for coffee mugs or stencils for embroidery so we can all say Free FarScape! or FarScape Rocks! without bending the copyrights vs. sales prob.

... and if any of you have any fun ideas that will lift our spirits please say so. I can have it up in 24 hours and you can be wearing it in a week!

[Pilot's babe]

I cannot understand why Hensen doesn't allow images to be used in advertisments. E.g on the Television Without Pity website advertisments appear regularly and it would be so helpful if we were allowed shippy moments. Just one glimpse of the J/A love story could woo new fans. Instead we have to make do with slogans. The only benefit from using copyrighted images in advertisments to save the show would be for Hensen. I don't get what their problem is in that regard. Farscapes main appeal to me is the soapy storylines and the shippy moments. To sell the show we are having to rely on statements about fights and weapens of mass destruction etc. Just seems to me Hensen are shooting themselves in the foot somewhat by holding back our campaign.

[cofax]

Pilot's babe, please read the Copyright FAQ in the Copyright and Beyond Hope forum.

Henson CANNOT give fans the rights to use any images, because the rights to those images are enmeshed in a complicated legal tangle of licensees. They're not "shooting themselves in the foot", they're complying with their own legal obligations.

SaveFarscape.com approached Henson early on about this, and they kindly explained the situation. We're not going to get approval.

Additionally, many Scapers have been creative enough to come up with some great graphics and slogans that draw viewers in without using copyrighted images. Not having access to the cast pictures isn't going to make or break the campaign.

cofax

[Maximum^]

Just because Henson cannot legally give away the rights to use farscape images, doesn't mean that we shouldn't use them ANYWAY.

For example, (and I stress this is just ONE SMALL EXAMPLE) this website uses farscape imagery to the fullest. So do a thousand other fan websites and save Farscape websites.

I GAURANTEE -- I absolutely, positively GAURANTEE -- that no one from Henson or any of their partners will EVER -- NEVER -- EVER, put you in jail, sue you, or even wag their finger at you, for using their images in an honest and non-profit effort to revive the show. Whether or not they have the right to prosecute is soooo BESIDE the point. Henson could shut this site down (non-profit be damned) In some states certain sexual positions are outlawed! In Toronto, it's against the law to drag a dead horse through the streets after midnight. I am not impressed at all with knowledge of official statutes. The point is that no one will ever care to take legal action against their fan base or anyone who has good intentions. Have you heard of even ONE Save Farscape website being shut down?

Let's please stop this insanity, and release our already-encumbered campaign from another unjustified burden of fear.

I am so tired of people shooting theirselves in the foot by adamantly professing what it is we CANNOT do. There have been a lot of good ideas stomped down because of presumptions and unjustified fear. It's like when an artist self-censures their work because they are afraid of what authorities will do if they break with convention. Much genious has been lost to this insidious syndrome.

If you agree with me, I encourage you to link to this post around the board.

[cofax]

Maximum, the policy of this website and the SaveFarscape.com team is clear. So is the distinction between nonprofit, noncommercial fan sites and paying other people to reproduce materials to which we have no legal right.

You don't agree, that's fine. But we won't approve or support any projects that violate our copyright policy. If you want to abuse Henson's copyright, you do it elsewhere and without our support.

[Maximum^]

If you want to abuse Henson's copyright, you do it elsewhere and without our support.

I really have to object to the rhetorical use of the word "abuse". What I am proposing is no more abusive than the use of Farscape imagery on this website. That ought to be easy to agree with. The fact that this website has been collecting money while making use of copyrighted images only makes it an even better example of so called "abuse."

Please don't get me wrong. I am really glad this site is here, and collecting money. And I really don’t think this is abuse at all. I just want you to realize that except for the fact that they are a different type of medium, everything else from T.V. to paper flyers have few or no important differences from this website. That should also be obvious.

the distinction between nonprofit, noncommercial fan sites and paying other people to reproduce materials to which we have no legal right.

I am not sure what your point here is. Are you saying that as long as we don’t have to pay people to reproduce the materials, it's ok? Surely not. If you are saying it's ok to have a "nonprofit, noncommercial fan site" then shouldn't it also be ok to have a "nonprofit, noncommercial" Newspaper or T.V. ad?

I am sorry, but so far, I can't see how discouraging people from using say, a Farscape font has prevented any major or minor legal disasters for the campaign. So far, I only see some publicity that could have better represented the Farscape wonder. Instead, we have managed to misrepresent it and perhaps even degrade it by NOT using the imagery.

Is there even one person out there who still reads this thread that can give me a "hell yeah?"

...

O well. That’s ok; I kinda like being the lonely voice of reason (what I think is reasonable anyway).

Finally, I do understand the need that this site avoid endorsing copyright infringement (ignoring the fact that this site does infringe itself. Legally it doesn't matter if it’s non-profit, they can still sue you). But it has been a sad mistake for the people of this board to espouse with so much vigor the virtues of what is effectively self censure.

[waltersgirl]

What I am proposing is no more abusive than the use of Farscape imagery on this website.

we make no profit whatsoever from the use of Farscape images on this fansite. we never have and we never will. donations to the Beyond Hope fund, or any other fund affiliated in any way with this website have nothing to do with the images on this website.

Just because Henson cannot legally give away the rights to use farscape images, doesn't mean that we shouldn't use them ANYWAY

actually, yes it does. we are campaigning for the show, the integrity of the show, the integrity of the vision, and the rights of the creators to finish the show as it was always meant to be finished. violating their copyright is tantamount to theft, and would defeat everything we're trying to accomplish. knowingly doing so, after we've already been denied permission is inexusable.

[waltersgirl]

also, the "Farscape" font is actually based on an existing font, Pritchard. the elongated 's' is signature to Farscape, however.

[Pilot's babe]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maximum^
[B]I really have to object to the rhetorical use of the word "abuse". What I am proposing is no more abusive than the use of Farscape imagery on this website.

I am sorry, but so far, I can't see how discouraging people from using say, a Farscape font has prevented any major or minor legal disasters for the campaign. So far, I only see some publicity that could have better represented the Farscape wonder. Instead, we have managed to misrepresent it and perhaps even degrade it by NOT using the imagery.

Is there even one person out there who still reads this thread that can give me a "hell yeah?"

...

Well I don't know about a "hell yeah" but I do agree with you that it sucks that we can't use certain images. Just one J/A shipper picture would attract more viewers than the sexist promos I have heard Skiffy are using.

What I love about Farscape the most is the character development and the shippy moments. The action and great effects are just a bonus. I do think we are doing the show a disservice when advertising it with slogans such as "weapons of mass destruction" etc. Such slogans will only appeal to a minority and may not grab other potential viewers. So yeah it sucks but I'm a good girl at heart so I won't be bucking against the official policy of the site. But I do see where you are coming from absolutely. :)

[Maximum^]

Originally posted by waltersgirl
we make no profit whatsoever from the use of Farscape images on this fansite. we never have and we never will. donations to the Beyond Hope fund, or any other fund affiliated in any way with this website have nothing to do with the images on this website.

I believe you watersgirl. But we could also make such a claim about a TV commercial that uses Farscape’s theme song.


we are campaigning for the show, the integrity of the show, the integrity of the vision, and the rights of the creators to finish the show as it was always meant to be finished.

I am glad that YOU are campaigning for all of those wonderful things.

As far as I am aware, the only value that we know for certain is held in common by all the visitors of this site is to see the show continue. Fortunately, nothing I am proposing will jeopardize any of the peripheral goals that you have only just now set out. Aww c'mon watersgirl. It's a big stretch to say that we would be compromising the integrity of the show. That just is not true. In fact, by NOT using the materials, we HAVE been compromising the integrity of the show, the vision, everything. Nothing we would be doing would stop the creators from finishing the way they wanted to finish it. I could be wrong, but it seems to me you are talking theory. I am just trying to be practical.

violating their copyright is tantamount to theft, and would defeat everything we're trying to accomplish. knowingly doing so, after we've already been denied permission is inexusable.

I am sorry, but sadly, once again, I detect some counterproductive rhetoric in the use of the word "theft." Need I really point out that "theft" implies illegal and/or immoral profit of some sort? This is not about theft.

As for permission… I wonder what would happen if we asked Henson for permission to use Farscape imagery on this website? Hmmm.... did anyone ever ask them about that? If I call Henson and ask for that permission, would this website abide the decision? Don’t worry, I won’t. The answer would almost certainly be “No.” It would be a mistake to ask. Just like it was a mistake to ask for image rights for other usage. If I was using it for profit, I would certainly ask. But I am not. Just like this site. Just like a Newspaper ad. just like a radio spot. Just like...

Can't we at least agree that there is nothing immoral about using parts of the show in order to save it? Can't we just agree that we truly do mean well and that weighs more heavily than our morbid, part-time fascination with copyright? No one here is trying to steal money away from Henson. Can't we just keep our eye on the ball? This is about saving the show. Can’t we just remember THAT?

[Demonique]

Originally posted by Pilot's babe
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maximum^
[B]
Well I don't know about a "hell yeah" but I do agree with you that it sucks that we can't use certain images. Just one J/A shipper picture would attract more viewers than the sexist promos I have heard Skiffy are using.

Yes, it would, but IF Henson told me (and they haven't, so I won't) that I could use one, and ONE ONLY, pic to draw new viewers in, it would NOT be a picture of John and Aeryn, it would be of one of the alien-aliens, Rygel or Pilot.

Which do you honestly think is more likely to draw in new viewers a J/A pic (Oh look, two humans making goo-goo eyes at each other) or one of Rygel. (What is THAT thing? They never had that on Star Trek)

Instead of John, Aeryn and Carrots SciFi should have used J, A and Rygel or Pilot instead. Of course they had to use the three most human looking characters in the show 'cause viewers don't GET aliens and therefore won't tune in.
SciFi can go stick their collective heads up a dead bear's bum, for all I care.
(Can anyone what Ozzie show that particular quote came from?)

On a side note, I was flicking through a LOTR book and came across a still of a snarling Moria goblin. LOL! It's Rygel's ugly cousin!

[cofax]

I'm sorry you don't agree with our policy. We took some care to hammer it out and consulted with intellectual property attorneys with experience in fandom. We don't expect to get sued, this isn't about that.

But there is a slippery slope on this sort of issue, and we've done the best we can to define a line between acceptable fannish noncommercial uses (i.e., "fair use") and unacceptable commercial uses. We don't pay for banner ads or print ads or radio or television time using Henson images. We don't make any money or support any money-making efforts using Henson images.

We walk a fine line, and we've struggled with that. But we believe it is vital that the campaign retain some respectibility, some professional status, to give us some credibility in the entertainment industry. Encouraging all the members of the fandom to manipulate Henson's copyrighted property in any way they see fit would not serve that end. And it would offend Henson, the people whose creative vision we support.

Maybe we shouldn't have, but we did ask Henson for permission, and they said "no." We abide by their wishes inasmuch as we can, while still retaining what we believe is within our rights as a noncommercial fan site.

This is about saving the show. But we're going to maintain our standards while we do so.

[Maximum^]

Ok, this will be the last I have to say on this. I don’t see either of us changing our opinion on this. So I will just clear up a a few things from your last post…

But there is a slippery slope on this sort of issue
Ok, the slippery slope issue, I can understand. And if that’s your concern, I can for the first time see a possible problem. People might start to take a little too much artistic license. People might start “bending” other rules. Look at my enormously popular Kazaa spoofing idea. :ewink: Things can spin out of control. But then, that all depends on how much you trust this community to draw their own line.

a line between acceptable fannish noncommercial uses (i.e., "fair use") and unacceptable commercial uses.
Please remember that no one here (not even myself!) has suggested using Farscape images in order to make a profit, but only to aid in asking people to watch the show. Dismiss the use of Farscape images if you will, but not because it is “commercial use.” It clearly is not.

But we believe it is vital that the campaign retain some respectibility, some professional status,
I close my eyes, and I try to imagine board members at Henson or Sci Fi looking at a fan-made newspaper ad featuring a pic of moya in starburst. I try to imagine them at that moment gritting their teeth in anger and losing respect for us. I can’t. Can you?

Encouraging all the members of the fandom to manipulate Henson's copyrighted property in any way they see fit would not serve that end.
Now, now. That’s not what I said. I said << Finally, I do understand the need that this site avoid endorsing copyright infringement […] But it has been a sad mistake for the people of this board to espouse with so much vigor the virtues of what is effectively self censure. >>

And it would offend Henson
You seem sure about that. If you are right, then you’ve convinced me to stand down. If you are wrong, then no credibility, respectability, or professionalism would have been lost. Sure, their bureaucracy gave their standard official “no.” But ask the decision-makers off the record if they mind if their images were tastefully employed in an effort to save the show.

[scaPer boi]

Originally posted by Maximum^
Ok, this will be the last I have to say on this. I don’t see either of us changing our opinion on this. So I will just clear up a a few things from your last post…


Ok, the slippery slope issue, I can understand. And if that’s your concern, I can for the first time see a possible problem. People might start to take a little too much artistic license. People might start “bending” other rules. Look at my enormously popular Kazaa spoofing idea. :ewink: Things can spin out of control. But then, that all depends on how much you trust this community to draw their own line.


Please remember that no one here (not even myself!) has suggested using Farscape images in order to make a profit, but only to aid in asking people to watch the show. Dismiss the use of Farscape images if you will, but not because it is “commercial use.” It clearly is not.


I close my eyes, and I try to imagine board members at Henson or Sci Fi looking at a fan-made newspaper ad featuring a pic of moya in starburst. I try to imagine them at that moment gritting their teeth in anger and losing respect for us. I can’t. Can you?


Now, now. That’s not what I said. I said << Finally, I do understand the need that this site avoid endorsing copyright infringement […] But it has been a sad mistake for the people of this board to espouse with so much vigor the virtues of what is effectively self censure. >>


You seem sure about that. If you are right, then you’ve convinced me to stand down. If you are wrong, then no credibility, respectability, or professionalism would have been lost. Sure, their bureaucracy gave their standard official “no.” But ask the decision-makers off the record if they mind if their images were tastefully employed in an effort to save the show.

The thing to remember is there is more than one entity involved here, yes henson might look the other way to help save the show but do you think sci-fi would, especially after how they treated farscape? Which is probably the reason henson refused permission in the first place, so that others don't sue the shit out of us!

[cofax]

I really really don't want to continue arguing about this.

"Commercial" refers to more than just whether we make a profit. It also refers to other people making profit, including CafePress, newspapers printing ads, and so forth. They're making profit off the unauthorized use of Henson's images.

We could make absolutely no money off the use of Farscape imagery, and it would still be an unauthorized commercial use. And yes, I'm fully aware that some people are doing this anyway, and that SF.com has paid for one-offs like the convention banner.

It's not Henson I'm worried about (although if people went nuts with the images I could be, but generally I agree that the creative team wouldn't give a damn); it's the rest of the industry. More people than Henson have a hand in the fate of Farscape.

We are required to draw a line *somewhere*; this is where we chose to draw it. I'm sorry you don't agree, but I don't agree with you that the lack of copyrighted images is severely hampering the campaign.

And that's all I have to say on this.

[Maximum^]

I promised that I would not say anymore on this issue. And though I am already aware of some of the points you brought up just now and I am itching to rebut them, I won't. I suspect that that you will be ready to return the ball, and this would probably never end.

Instead I actually want to agree with something you said. This copyright thing by itself is not "severely" hampering the campaign. As I started to read your last post I heard a voice say "all great endeavors involve risk." (It was just my TV in the background, not necessarily a message from God). But the unwillingness to take a risk (regardless of whether or not I think the risk is real) on using Farscape imagery is only a symptom of a bigger problem that I perceive.

If you want to know what I think the real problem is, here is something that I posted earlier in another thread…

<< This is more an appeal for our cause in general than for this specific idea. If we are going to live in fear of taking some extraordinary or innovative steps to achieve our goals, especially when the risk is so little (as you pointed out yourself) how well can we expect to do? Up to this point we have taken the road often traveled, and although I am certain it has had some [good] effect, we are still far from our goal. So I ask you: Shall we just keep doing the same old thing? We have a choice now: Start thinking outside the box, or paralyze ourselves with fear. It's so true: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I have too often seen people quick to mindlessly dismiss or even shout down useful ideas (IMHO) simply because they didn't fit into the old patterns [of thinking]. What I am asking here is: Treat all ideas as though you are in a brain storming session with co-workers. >>

It may be true that some things are “too” risky. But the only person who should decide that, is the person who actually takes the risk.

[waltersgirl]

no one's telling you that you can't engage in whatever activity you deem potentially useful. the staff is telling you that if it doesn't fall within the, yes arbitrary, lines that we've drawn about what this website and this message board will promote and endorse, then this website and this message board will neither promote nor endorse them.

those policies are not going to change.

[nhfearme]

Maximum^,

There is an increasing movement building in our ranks. I will not say I am against it. However, I cannot join it. I’ve recently run across this one based in Oz, whose owner may agree with you:

http://emerald.bbboy.net/imogenannesleybboflove-viewforum?forum=7

Cofax! :hi:

I have a question for ya! (I think that’s what this thread is for, eh? :rolleyes: )

I have an insane idea...

Cafepress allows me to have a site with no markup. I've been thinking about it ever since someone here asked if I would make donation materials.

It would work like the cookbooks. We order stuff to have them at cons and functions, offering a T-shirt for a donation of $25 a mousepad for a donation of $18 for the Beyond Hope Fund. (I really have to check the costs before I assign a value.)

Anyway, I would load the original "I Love FarScape" logo into the shop items and the FWA or regional groups could order them for functions!!!!! We wouldn’t make a dime on the order only on donations at cons and functions.

Is that a negatory since *someone* will still be printing and making a profit on the word "FarScape"? I know that someone was printing T-shirts early on in the campaign.

Other stuff:

You said to be careful about using character names. Like Aeryn, Moya, Chiana & D’Argo, I suppose. :rolleyes: But Jack, Pilot and Rygel are normal. So I want to put them up. And how about DK? That could stand for anything…

The Cookbook. How were we able to sell it saying “FarScape” on the front and the character names inside? I especially need to know because I may be able to offer it through the shop.

My purpose is to get more ideas. Especially since someone put up a Valentine shop instead of suggesting stuff for the I Love John Shop, putting it in direct competition.

Tell me what you think.

I originally posted in:

http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=98664#post98664

[Egg]

This copyright issue, let's just say it as it is.
If you use their stuff IT'S THEIRS. If they don't like you using it you will find out with a warning. Until then chill and keep the faith. Don't be paranoid!!!!

[waltersgirl]

it's not a matter of paranoia. it's a matter of integrity. we said we wouldn't because they said "don't." it's not any more complicated than that.

[Maximum^]

did they say "don't" or did they say "we can't say yes"

[cofax]

We asked if we could have their permission, and they said "no, you may not have our permission."

Which is neither "don't" nor "we can't say yes," but something in between. There are certainly things we're doing that the business types in the industry would rather we didn't. But there are things we're not doing (which we could probably get away with easily), and I expect they appreciate that.

[nhfearme]

:lol

Lucky for y'all I'm too exhausted to frell with it anymore. :D

Here's the three I built for FWA stuff. Until peeps offer some idears of what to do further (Or until I have a jolt of inspiration), dis is it:

http://www.cafeshops.com/ILoveJohn

http://www.cafeshops.com/gimmebackmyshow

http://www.cafeshops.com/wormholes

bbl after I have a bit of a liedown :thud:

[LiLOrion]

regarding vanity 800#

I've been reading through the copyright thread. I haven't seen this particular question.

For the commercial we are trying to run, we want to put a vanity 800# up on the screen as well as this website www.SaveFarscape.com (If there is a problem with putting the url up please let me know). The vanity # idea was chosen because it would be more easily commited to memory than 7 numbers. Anyway, I would assume we can't use:

1-800-FARSCAP(E) Cause "Farscape" is copyrighted.
but how bout:

1-800-SCAPERS - I'm not sure if "Scaper" is copyrighted, which is my question to you...is it?
I have a few more bear with me, if you see a problem let me know:
1-800-SCAPISM
1-800-SCAPEME
1-800-SCAPE4U
1-800-SAVESCA(PE)

(Christ, they get worse as you go down the list dont they?! :D )

If you have a suggestion, please...let me know.

Thanks

[nhfearme]

LiLOrion,

Just a side comment. Great numbers!

If 'Scape' is ok how about

WeScape or
ToScape?

And if 'scape' isn't ok how about Save... something? like

SaveFar or
Savecom.

This bboard is also known as http://watchfarscape.com so watch... Like

WatchUs or
ToWatch.

:rolleyes: Yeah, worse as I go down the list. Yours are better. :rollin:

[CNash]

I have no idea whether this has been said before, as I don't have the time to read through all the aguements, but...

Usage of copyrighted images and materials to make profit - like, for instance, if we comprised a commercial stuffed with pictures of Scorpius, urging viewers to buy bootleg copies of DVDs - then that is against copyright.

Usage of copyrighted images and materials to advertise a non-profit organisation is classed as "fair use". If we're not making money or providing anything that cnnot be obtained via legitimate sources, then we should not have a problem.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I've always viewed copyright issues like this.

[Maximum^]

Sorry for having to put it this way but: You are right and you are wrong.


THE WRONG:
In most jurisdictions you'll find that official legislation provides protection to copyright holders against non-licensed use of their intellectual property and images by both profit and non-profit organizations alike. This means that technically, this site and this entire campaign is not allowed to publish any Farscape imagery.

THE RIGHT:
However, by convention, I think you will find that copyright holders never exercise their rights against non-profit use their materials so long as it doesn't impact their business goals negatively.


I've always been frustrated by the way people here have mindlessly yet adamantly held that use of such images beyond this website would somehow be immoral or disreputable or likely to bring legal action down upon us.

[waltersgirl]

base your frustrations on fact then, please. what folks do on their own is their business. you want to use copyrighted materials for whatever reason, go right ahead. that use doesn't get advertised here and if monies result from said use, they don't get accepted by either the FWA or Beyond Hope.

we are only concerned with projects that are funded by the FWA, the Beyond Hope fund, or monies collected to support the maintenance of the website. if the monies from someone's idea were to come to those funds and fell within the admittedly arbitrary lines that we've drawn regarding copyright then we will not endorse those activities and we would not take the monies.

there's nothing mindless about our position. we asked for permission and it was denied. we respect that and we stand by it. i'm sorry that concept frustrates you. it doesn't bother us at all. what individuals do beyond this website is none of our concern. it's not immoral or disreputable or illegal because we aren't interested in it.

[Darkflame]

Why not simply ask them?
As long as the "product" does not damage the brand, or reduce sales of there own products, I see no reason for them to object.
--
Also, you can only be sued if your making money from the product.
Now, Im currently the lead animator making a fan-film of a computer game called "LBA".
Ive looked into this, as long as I dont make net-profit, its perfectly legal.

Surely if all money from merchandise is pulled back into Farscape...there is no net profit for the saler...and its thus legal?

[Jul]

We did ask them(Henson) and they said NO, end of story..

We have legal counsel that advise us on these matters and according to them it's still NOT LEGAL especially since we asked Henson and they said NO.

Thanks for asking though.

[nhfearme]

TaraK started thread using the phrase, "Crichton was here!"

http://www.watchfarscape.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=116968#post116968

Crichton is a common name so can I use it?? Anyway. We think it would be fun. :spin:

... also how about "Ask President Clinton. Even the big ones go down." ... hehe

[RojAvon]

Darkflame,

I understand your point but it's not that simple. There are legal implications that go along with selectively defending your intellectual property rights. Basically if you grant permission like that you are seriously undermining your ability to defend against future infringement of copyright.

It sucks and my impression from reading Henson Co.'s response is that they really wish they could but they can't.

Blame the sue-happy legal system and pirates.

[nhfearme]

I wasn't going to say anything... but am I mistaken thinking this thread is to learn what can and cannot be used??? :headbang:

Anyway, if you peeps want to argue about it please take it outside. As far as I'm concerned, if Henson said, "No" that 'No' stands.

Now, can we please get on to asking our inane questions and getting some rude answers?!

[waltersgirl]

huh?

[nhfearme]

Coming up with non Copyright Logos and images is no easy task. Just ask me and Shipscat, we've been hammering at it long enough in building the FWA shops:

http://www.cafepress.com/CurlyandMoe
http://www.cafeshops.com/RajivandDexter
http://www.cafeshops.com/fweaklater
http://www.cafeshops.com/wormholes
http://www.cafeshops.com/ILoveJohn
http://www.cafeshops.com/gimmebackmyshow

I've recently received some very important links from Kerlin. Hope they help you all in your endeavors to create/find non-Copyright materials.


Kerlin wrote on 04-05-2003 04:50 PM:
Glad to know I can be useful :).

I used a couple of sites to search for copyright and trademark.

The United States Copyright Office at the Library of Congress, here : http://www.loc.gov/copyright/ There's all sorts of information about how copyright works there, and on the far right there is a link for you to "search records." From there the place to search would be "Books, Music, Etc."

As for trademarks, the US Patent Office handles those : http://www.uspto.gov/. There's a link for "Trademarks" and from that page you can search the database.

Last time I did it, Farscape had been copyrighted something like 17 times, in connection with the series and a few of the merchandising, but only trademarked once. I played around with a couple of other Farscape terms but didn't find anything. But this was all a very cursory and idle search...I don't even remember why I first did it.

Hope that helps!Thank You Kerlin!

--nh

[uisceboo]

For a great explanation of how to go about designing Farsape-supporting items and keeping them copyright-safe, read our interview with two of FoodScapeII's artists:

http://www.watchfarscape.com/news/article.php?newsid=405

[percent20]

Can you do a mod for a game as long as you say that you don't have permissoin to use there products. Also I would like to try and get approval to use there material and was wondering if anyone had any good links to some templates to a good letter.

[KatieT]

I guess I know the answer already, but I'd like to double-check;
Are we allowed to use eg. "Nebari" or "Scarran"? What about "Peacekeeper", or should we just stick to "PK"?

[cofax]

Those names are all the property of the Henson Company. They may not be trademarked, but it would be tacky of anyone associated with the campaign to use them in any profit-making venture. Or any non-profit venture, either, if money is changing hands.

The reason we got approval to use the images from the miniseries for the postcard project is because of our concern for Henson's intellectual property. Let's keep it that way.

[Throctukes]

Maximum^,


You said to be careful about using character names. Like Aeryn, Moya, Chiana & D’Argo, I suppose. :rolleyes: But Jack, Pilot and Rygel are normal. So I want to put them up. And how about DK? That could stand for anything…

I've seen Moya used elsewhere, as well. The set of wine glasses my wife and I were given as a wedding present were "Moya" wine glasses - with, as far as I can see, no connection with Farscape.

[sneakypunk]

if this site gets sued I blame the other people for being to stuck up and to greedy they should just leave it as a fan site and deal with it how sad is it to couse down nice site just beocuse someone has a big frelling stick up there ass and the just want to be the alpha dog and push lil poeple around its the one resion why I support file sharing dvd burning etc. etc. etc.

[MotorWerk]

Moya is a common spanish surname.

[Abnoba12]

I know the safe answer is always no, but this question doesn’t look like its been looked at directly and I have received answers from many places. I recorded all 4 seasons of Farscape from TV using my All-In-Wonder video card.

I setup a server so I can stream video on the Internet. I find web stations all over the net showing TV shows like family guy and Anime. I have found a few places saying that the FCC doesn’t extend to the net and broadcasting these shows is a legal thing.

Another thing is, it would be totally non-profit. I would like to place Farscape episodes on the net for all to enjoy, but I’m not sure how other Internet TV stations places their content legally.

If I can figure out all the details I’ll set up my Farscape TV station, if not, it was worth a shot.

[RydraWong]

Another thing is, it would be totally non-profit. I would like to place Farscape episodes on the net for all to enjoy, but I’m not sure how other Internet TV stations places their content legally.

If I can figure out all the details I’ll set up my Farscape TV station, if not, it was worth a shot.

A practical point: doing this would directly undercut the potential DVD sales and re-run rights sales for the producers and financiers of the show. Even if it's non-profit in the sense that you aren't making any money of it, it reduces their chances of recouping the money they invested in the show.

Whatever the situation with the FCC, copyright law certainly still applies to the net. Given that TV companies can and have banned fan sites from hosting even brief video clips, it'd certainly be illegal to broadcast entire eps without their permission.

Even if you could find a way to make it legal (other than getting their permission), why screw over Henson's like that? They've been more than generous when it comes to bending the rules in fans' favour, and have been uniquely good to the fan campaign - they deserve some respect.

And frankly, right now, our best chance of getting more Farscape is to ensure that the franchise makes money. We undercut that, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

[LT Garrix]

Abnoba, just to let you know a gentleman that was providing SG-1 eps over the net found himself arrested and guilty of distributing copyrighted material without permission. Granted he was making money off his site through Amazon referrels, but the MPAA has recently come out saying they are going to crackdown on people filesharing movies and TV could be considered in the same ballpark.

Plus as Rydra said, this may undercut Henson's profits.

[StarsGoBlue]

I know the safe answer is always no, but this question doesn’t look like its been looked at directly and I have received answers from many places. I recorded all 4 seasons of Farscape from TV using my All-In-Wonder video card.

I setup a server so I can stream video on the Internet. I find web stations all over the net showing TV shows like family guy and Anime. I have found a few places saying that the FCC doesn’t extend to the net and broadcasting these shows is a legal thing.

Another thing is, it would be totally non-profit. I would like to place Farscape episodes on the net for all to enjoy, but I’m not sure how other Internet TV stations places their content legally.

If I can figure out all the details I’ll set up my Farscape TV station, if not, it was worth a shot.

What you choose to do on your own bandwidth, legal or illegal, is your concern. However, that type of link will not be allowed to be posted or discussed here. If you want to discuss/debate the ethics of such practices, please do so via PM or email.

End of discussion, let's move along. Thank you.

[uisceboo]

FYI: These are CafePress' rules and practices concerning what they will and will not accept in terms of images to be placed on their products. Please note that if CafePress or any other similar service uploads and displays for sale an image/design that is in violation of copyright laws, not only will the designer get busted by the copyright holder, so will CafePress (or another company, such as Spreadshirt, 99Dogs, Zazzle, etc.).

more info (http://tinyurl.com/8lxy9)

CafePress does screen images. If they find a design that does not meet their terms of acceptable use, they will remove the design from their system.

These are good guidelines for what is and is not copyright safe in general. CafePress has their own legal team, big guns who basically do nothing but cover their company's eema. You can trust their guidelines as solid.

I am not a rep for CafePress, but I use their service on a daily basis. If you have questions about these guidelines, contact CafePress (http://tinyurl.com/da385), not me or anyone from FMD.

From CafePress.com -- Frequently Asked Questions
Examples of Prohibited Content

In accordance with intellectual property laws, CafePress.com has certain rules regarding the types of merchandise that you can make and sell through its service.

For example:

NO use of names, logos, pictures or other intellectual property of musical groups or musical artists. For example, you cannot make Britney Spears merchandise simply because you run a fan-based Britney Spears website or just because you downloaded her image from an internet website. You also cannot modify the name or other intellectual property of a musical group and avoid infringement, (e.g., using Metalika instead of Metallica).

NO use of names, logos, pictures, or other intellectual property of sports teams, colleges/universities, clubs, or organizations such as the Los Angeles Lakers, Harvard University, or The Boy Scouts. Again, modifications may not avoid infringement.

NO photos, logos, caricatures, or other artwork depicting celebrities, such as Michael Jackson or Madonna, or other third parties. Just because you take a photograph of a celebrity does not give you the right to use that photograph on merchandise, even if you digitally manipulate the photograph.

NO use of trademarks, names, or logos of companies. For example, you cannot use the name of a company such as Nike, a company logo such as the Nike "swoosh" trademark, or brand name such as Coca Cola, or a modified version of a trademark, (e.g., "Just Did It").

NO pictures or photographs of products (such as toys). Even if you own a product, trademark laws may still prohibit you from selling merchandise that features pictures of it. For example, you cannot take a picture of your Barbie and sell merchandise with that picture.

In order to load your images for use on CafePress products, you must tick off the box that says "I agree to the terms & conditions stated here and as outlined in the Terms of Service (http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/tos.aspx)." When you tick off this box and upload, you legally have agreed that you are aware of the rules. If you haven't read them and click the box and upload anyway, you still legally are considered aware of the rules.

This is what you see on the page where you upload images for use on products:

IMAGE GUIDELINES You may not sell or save merchandise using the following types of content, unless you own the content and/or have a license to use it.

* NO UNOFFICIAL MERCHANDISE E.g., using names or images of musicians, bands, sports teams, athletes etc. without permission, even for fan club purposes.

* NO CONTENT DOWNLOADED FROM INTERNET

* NO NAMES/LOGOS OF COMPANIES OR ORGANIZATIONS E.g., NeoPets, Lakers, Dr. Pepper, Tommy Hilfiger etc.

* NO TRADEMARKED TAGLINES E.g., Just Do It, The Ultimate Driving Machine, Got Milk? etc.

* NO IMAGES OR LIKENESS OF FAMOUS PEOPLE E.g., photos of Pamela Anderson, Britney Spears, Brad Pitt, Michael Jordan, Homer Simpson etc.

* NO MANIPULATED CONTENT E.g., using a company's logo as a basis of your design

* NO PHOTOS OR IMAGES OF KNOWN COPYRIGHTS E.g., Mickey Mouse, Dragonball Z, Godzilla, Barbie etc.

* NO SEXUALLY EXPLICIT CONTENT

* NO COPYING OF PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED MATERIAL E.g., books, magazines, publications etc.

* NO COMPILATION OR "MIX" CDS USING THE CONTENT OF OTHER ARTISTS

Each item is linked to details and additional information.

The easiest way to keep yourself safe is to create totally original designs. Yes, this is hard, but it's also rewarding. And it is possible. Consider the rules a challenge and a stepping-off point to inspiration.